(continued)
18.
Every Life Form – species -- that has ever existed on this Earth has one and only one function: Reproduce to ensure the survival of the species.
I am so glad you didn't say "purpose". Because biota clearly have multiple "functions" beyond reproduction, ranging from photosynthesis to web-spinning. And survival through reproduction is not ensured, as extinctions indicate.
On a humanities level, however, this is a slap at childless people. But it is interesting to contemplate human bodies as merely hosts for our DNA. But then one wonders how astrology gets involved with it. The problem of the jealous woman (or man) and all that.
19.
However, as Plants and Animals go, Humans are the most adaptable and most capable of ensuring the survival of their species, if for no other reason than Humans can foresee impending doom and take action to prevent or mitigate….to a point.
Outside of that, your life is objectively meaningless. Your life has meaning only when you attach something subjective to it, like dreams and goals. Why do you think people commit suicide? Because they believe that they will never be able to achieve any of their dreams or goals, and so there is no longer any point in just going through the motions.
I agree with a lot of this, but it contradicts some of your earlier material. If humans can take steps to mitigate impending disaster, then fatalism goes out the window. Unless of course, they were fated to take mitigating steps, in which case the disaster was only illusory. If you are a true fatalist, you do not believe that people commit suicide because of their shattered dreams: they commit suicide because they are fated to do so.
20.
Determinism does not render astrology becomes totally pointless. Quite the contrary, as it makes Astrology becomes more important and relevant than ever.
As an astrologer, your raison d' etre is to inform people what will happen in their lives and when it will happen.
But if you are a true determinist, there is no point to learning astrology. The client was fated to ask for a reading, of course, whose outcome was determined long before either of you were born. Whether you knew astrology or were totally ignorant of it would not make a particle of difference, because "what will be, will be."
The history of astrology has some startling predictive successes, but also some unholy, highly publicized bloopers that did much to contribute to astrology's demise in the 17th century. Again, Bob, do you bat 1000? How many good traditional astrologers do? And how could you possibly weed out the bad ones?
Moreover, some of us focus on natal chart interpretation, not on predictive work. To each her own.
21. Your whole mitigation example (client losing home) is not an argument in favour of determinism, unless you are making a more circular argument than I think you are making. You are stating some "facts" or a hypothetical case based upon some suppositions that operate like facts. These
facts are not the same as any causality or any meta-explanation of why events unfolded as they did. To do this, you would need to invoke some other form of explanation, be it electro-magnetism, the planets, genetics, environmental factors, or Donald Duck.
Again the very possibility of mitigation of a predicted outcome argues against determinism in any purist form. Previously you argued that one can believe in either fatalism or free will but not both. Although I disagreed, it would seem that you actually agree with the possibility of clients as decision-making actors-- who thereby create some modicum of outcomes for themselves.
Some people might have the gall to say that the Client had Free Will to seek out an astrologer....no....the Client was programmed from birth by genetics, environment, upbringing and interactions to place credibility in Astrology…and thus seek one out.
I wouldn't put it this way, but I would say you have not demonstrated your point. You've
repeated it several times, yes. Yet again: if the client were "programmed" to seek an astrologer, probably many astrologers would be equally "programmed" to give incorrect information, and be "programmed" to make matters worse. The mortgage officer might be "programmed" to make trouble. The client wouldn't have a choice of picking a competent astrologer over a crummy one, because he would be programmed to choose the one he did.
22.
Modern Astrology ignores critical concepts and shuns proven rules, allowing people to interpret charts anyway they see fit to interpret them, leading to an extremely high degree of subjectivity, and prone to errors in interpretation.
Traditional Astrology is based entirely on conceptual doctrines and rules, consistently leading to accurate objective delineations.
Bob, it is OK for you to dislike modern astrology, but please don't make a straw man out of it. Are you familiar with Avelar and Rebeiro's recent textbook on traditional astrology? (
On the Heavenly Spheres.) I was pleasantly surprised to learn when I read it, that easily a third of the material was Old Hat to me, because it shows up so frequently in modern astrology, as well.
Moreover, there is bad and good modern astrology, just as there is bad and good traditional astrology or bad and good cooking. Good modern astrology has all sorts of principles ("rules") but some of them are different. Speaking of which, there is a huge and well-documented history of bad traditional astrology; which was a large part of the reason for its near demise by 1700. Isaac Bickerstaff, anyone? This whole Jonathan Swift caper-- highly publicized-- was based on erroneous predictions by a traditional astrologer.
I am not dissing traditional astrologers here, incidently-- merely leveling the score.
As a result, Modern Astrologers waste a lot of time attempting to convince the Native that they can “use the energy of a square aspect” to his/her advantage, when in fact the Native is powerless to do anything about it.
Oops-- there went
mitigation out the window!
We really need to decouple fatalism vs. "free will" from traditional vs. modern astrology. Some modern astrologers are highly fatalistic (past-lives karma, anyone?) and some traditional astrologers did (and do) admit of
mitigation as well as personal choice. If you read the rationales (apologia) of Hellenistic astrologers for astrology, for example, many of them argue on behalf of
moral choice. Astrology is a means whereby the pious man can become more virtuous, runs one argument.
23.
Ethnicity is a Red Herring that has no bearing on anything.
Nationality is another Red Herring that is of no value.
Oops-- there went genetics and environmental factors out the window, as well. Of course these factors are hugely important in people's lives. Ask any undocumented Mexican immigrant in the southwestern United States. Ask any member of the Roma (Gypsies.) The type of government is equally hugely important: ask any political refugee or participants in the Arab Spring. Societal values are not a red herring: ask any of the older feminists. Ask any African American who remembers the shift from Jim Crow. And so on.
I haven't worked with conception charts or heirarchichal charts, so I won't comment on their accuracy, except to say that I remain sceptical. Bob, perhaps on another thread you could put up some examples.
24.
RED HERRING: attempting to hide a weakness in an argument by drawing attention away from the real issue. A red herring fallacy is thus a diversionary tactic or an attempt to confuse or fog the issue being debated.
I support this definition, and I am quick to point out examples-- including in your posts, Bob! While someone can set up a red herring (aka smoke-screen) when he feels he is losing an argument, I have tried to avoid this fallacy here.
But another fallacy is the ad hominem or personalized attack. I truly feel that someone is losing an argument when he resorts to personal insults. Wouldn't you agree, Bob?
25. Thanks for the lesson on wealth prediction in traditional astrology! I see some logistical problems with it in application, but no matter.
26.
seriously, the type of government?….if the Native doesn’t know what kind of government they’ve got or whether they’re part of the Minority or Majority, then you probably ought not be reading a chart for them, since they’d be too stupid to understand what you’re saying.
Bob, if you read a lot of natal charts for people on Internet forums such as this one, you realize that they come in from all over the world. Naturally, the native knows what sort of government she has, but this information could benefit the astrologer in targeting her chart-reading, depending upon what is asked. People's lives do not occur in social or political vacuums. Advice can be given in a form that is blinkered by the astrologer's own cultural background. As I stated in that post, there are many things that profoundly affect people's lives (such as whether they live in North or South Korea) that simply do not appear in a horoscope. So a "red herring" for what "truth"?
27.
So, having informed the Native when it will be the best of times….and the worst of times…your job is done, unless the Native asks you for guidance on available options,
Unfortunately, in a fatalistic universe, the concept of available options is meaningless. There is only one option, as fated.
28.
Remember first and foremost, Astrology is a consulting profession. Just as no doctor would ever render a diagnoses without either speaking or physically examining the patient, and just as no lawyer would ever prepare a pleading for a plaintiff in a civil matter, or defend someone in a criminal or civil matter without first interviewing the person, Astrologers do not blindly read charts….they interview the Native first, or at least review biographical data on the Native.
In which case, this forum and other Internet astrology forums should simply close up, because oftentimes we do not have this opportunity. Moreover, if so many info-bytes can clearly be read off a horoscope by a knowledgeable traditional astrologer, why should she need the supplementary information?
Wouldn't it introduce a huge measure of confirmation bias into the chart reading?
Also, what would you do for the client who simply wanted a natal chart reading by way of a character analysis?
Cheers, Bob-- It's been a good evening chatting with you.
). So I am back home now. The ED doctor said people could experience sciatica pain without nerve or spinal damage which is luckily my case. She is happy for me to see NeuroSpine specialist on 17th September with MRI done. 
, with Jupiter's depositer 
combust. As an Aries he was born to lead, but his life ruler Mars squ Jupiter shows plainly his problems with traditional religion or the dogma of Christian, Islam, or Jewish orthodoxy.
