Part of Fortune

JUPITERASC said:

to clarify then: piercethevale - you said


to which I responded with data as follows



to which you responded with


to which my response is

SUBRA and REGULUS are two distinct and separate fixed stars. I introduced SUBRA into the equation because your MC appears conjunct SUBRA at 24 Leo

Fixed star: SUBRA Constellation: Omicron (ο) Leo Longitude 1900: 22LEO51 Longitude 2000: 24LEO15 Declination 1900: +10.21' Declination 2000: +09.54' Right ascension: 09h 41m Latitude: -03.45' Spectral class: FA Magnitude: 3.8 http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Stars_alphabet.htm

REGULUS as you have said is in the final degrees of Leo, shifting into Virgo in 2012




I infer therefore that it is your PoF that is conjunct Regulus, whereas your MC is conjunct SUBRA - having said that however, we need to consider the orbs at which fixed stars are considered conjunct particular points of a chart

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Yeah, I figured out what you had posted...I never heard of a Star by the name of Subra before...had me confused...
I don't use fixed stars anyways...I don't believe they have any influence....to be truthful...never seen any proof of it.
Also the Part of Fortune does not have anything to do with material wealth...not directly anyways...it is how one best completes his dharma...[it 's about being 'Fortunate' not $$$ ] the Sabian Symbol found there is symbolically the attitude, action or position one wants to employ, assume, create...etc. to activate the Part of Fortune...for example the Po F for the birth chart of Jesus I propose is correct has the 19th of Pisces as the Part of Fortune [Rudhyar]
"(PISCES 19°): A MASTER INSTRUCTING HIS DISCIPLE.

KEYNOTE: The transfer of power and knowledge which keeps the original spiritual and creative Impulse of the cycle active and undeviated."


..if that isn't the best example of how to literally take the symbolism for the Astrological parts I don't know what...

...Money...FORTUNE of the spending kind is readily attributable to the Part of Increase and Benefits....Asc + Jupiter - Sun


...this chap went way over board and has drawn up a list and set of conditions that is way too complex and needlessly too...In my opinion... and further I doubt it's even accurate.
The Part of Fortune is enhanced by being conj one of the cusps of the Chart Axis...or one of the other house cusps to a lesser affect....Conjunct a Planet or Luminary or Node is good as the power and influence of the celestial body will emphasize that symbolism all the more and make the Part practically automatically functioning and effective.
I've really only seen the magic of Parts get going when they are conjuncted by a transiting body...preferably one of the 'Bodies' in the formula or the Higher Octave of any body...this has been repeatedly observed and proven to me over the last 27 years.
...

piercethevale said:

Yeah, I figured out what you had posted...I never heard of a Star by the name of Subra before...had me confused...
I don't use fixed stars anyways...I don't believe they have any influence....to be truthful...never seen any proof of it. ...this chap went way over board and has drawn up a list and set of conditions that is way too complex and needlessly too...In my opinion... and further I doubt it's even accurate....

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To quote author and lecturer Diana K Rosenberg who has been acclaimed by some as the world's foremost authority on Fixed Stars.

QUOTE
"Fixed stars, constellations and lunar mansions are the most ancient astrological heritages of humankind. Long before there were horoscopes, aspects, houses or signs (or even systems of writing!) the dedicated priest-astrologers of Sumer, Akkad, Babylon, Greece, Phoenicia, Egypt, China, India, Central America, indeed, of virtually every ancient civilization of which we have record, carefully observed and analyzed sky-patterns, and attempted to relate their observations to the experiences of humankind, under the universally-held doctrine, "as above, so below."

btw how accurate is your birthtime?

How about planets conjunct these lots, particularly the lot of Fortune? I haven't found any info. yet that's worth trusting...

byjove said:

How about planets conjunct these lots, particularly the lot of Fortune? I haven't found any info. yet that's worth trusting...

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Vettius Valens?

What? Where?! He talked about planets on conjunct the PoF? I seen other aspects, but not conjunction....

byjove said:

What? Where?! He talked about planets on conjunct the PoF? I seen other aspects, but not conjunction....

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Vettius Valens? check out Eminence Indicators
and here's a link to an article by Rob Hand re: information got from translating Valens et al http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/robhand1.htm
http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/robhand2.htm
and http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/robhand3.htm
http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/robhand4.htm
http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/robhand5.htm

quote from link
The Part of Fortune is used to describe the basic way in which the individual is physically connected with the surrounding world. It is one of the significators of the body and health, and it is the primary significator of prosperity, and also career as it relates to prosperity. But the method of using it will come as a bit of a surprise. This is one of the most important discoveries that Project Hindsight has made. In my next note I'll go into that.(R. Hand, 02/16/96)

Thanks as always! You've been a great help and inspiration recently!

Looking at the nice guide by Robert Hand, I keep coming back to Saturn in my chart - how malefic is he exactly? (He's conjunct my PoF).

Good:
Cadency - the murder contained in jail
Sun trine, exact, and the Sun is a fellow sect-ruler and very well placed
In the sign of a benefic, and it's ruler is well placed too, and fellow sect ruler
In the correct triplicity with the other sect rulers

Good/Bad
He has term AND face...

Bad:
6th is also a bad place for any planet, especially malefic
Sect ruler, out of sect
As a natural malefic he can take away the good which he touches
Not 'seen' by the ASC - inconjunct

Any more experienced hands that can better weigh up my natal Saturn? As I say he conjuncts my PoF so I think it's better I figure him out.

byjove said:

Thanks as always! You've been a great help and inspiration recently!
Looking at the nice guide by Robert Hand, I keep coming back to Saturn in my chart - how malefic is he exactly? (He's conjunct my PoF).

Good:
Cadency - the murder contained in jail
Sun trine, exact, and the Sun is a fellow sect-ruler and very well placed
In the sign of a benefic, and it's ruler is well placed too, and fellow sect ruler
In the correct triplicity with the other sect rulers

Good/Bad
He has term AND face...

Bad:
6th is also a bad place for any planet, especially malefic
Sect ruler, out of sect
As a natural malefic he can take away the good which he touches
Not 'seen' by the ASC - inconjunct

Any more experienced hands that can better weigh up my natal Saturn? As I say he conjuncts my PoF so I think it's better I figure him out.

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No probs byjove! Excellent that you are minded to explore the terrain of the Ancient Astrologers... far and few are the lands where the Jumblies live byjove (well.... they all went to sea in a sieve)

Hellenistic Astrologers have said that because 6th is a cadent house and malefics have to be somewhere, then so far as the native is concerned the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th houses are 'the best' places for the malefics because their efforts are directed away from the native and towards others. (having said that, remember always that I'm no expert and probably could have worded it better)

as usual there are many views on the subject! Best to consider all!
QUOTE
Medieval astrologer Bonatti explained that each planet also rejoices in a house. He said that Saturn rejoices in the 12th house "because it is the house of sorrow, sadness, labor and weeping; and Saturn rejoices in these things" (G.B.II, p. 100 (c. 1282/1994)). He said that Mars rejoices in the 6th house "... because it is the house of deception, infirmities and servants" and Mars "signifies servants, deceivers, liars.…" (Id.). Note that Mars and Saturn were the malefics and they rejoice in the two opposite houses that modern astrologers consider the most problematic. http://garybrandastrology.com/articles/Traditional/JoysofPlanets4.10.2001.html

and

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~sueward/articles/weak_malefics.htm

The issue of "natural malefics" (Mars, Saturn) is one of the (few) places where I take leave of the Greco/Roman adepts, and instead follow the lead of the Islamic era astrologers, who in essence (perhaps defacto is a better term) rejected the ancient Mars/Saturn always = "evil" doctrine, and instead looked as these planets as usually but not always malefics-ie, as conditional influences. Ibn Ezra (and the Ankara school) for example, considered Saturn to be very benefic under conditions of angularity IF in rulership or exaltation (and if direct)-indeed, under the right circumstances Saturn might be more benefic than Jupiter (according to the Islamic era practitioners)

Now, a cadent Saturn or Mars would (by the above doctrine) be malefic, but weekly so; however, say one has a cadent Saturn in its exaltation of Libra (and also say in an elevated degree of that sign) Here, one would obtain a net benefic influence of Saturn, but, because of cadency, it would be weak.

Greco/Roman doctrine is that the malefics are always "bad"; Modernist doctrine is that they are always relative (could be good or bad); the intermediate Islamic era doctrine makes most sense to me-that Mars and Saturn tend toward being "easily malefic" but that their influence is very conditional and under certain such conditions they can be highly benefic influences.

Relative to Bonatti (and others), most forget that Manilius originally (14AD) gave the joy of Saturn to the 4TH HOUSE, and it was later Greco/Roman authors who either added the 12th house to the 4th house, as a joy of Saturn, or who dropped the original allocation of the joy of Saturn to the 4th house and instead allocated Saturn's joy exclusively to the 12th house.

Looking at Paulus Alexandrianus, Maximus, Antiochus, etc, we can see that conjunctions of the POF (and other Lots) with planets were fully delineated as conjunctions, the quality of the conjuncting planet indicating the quality of the influences from that planet affecting whatever the Lot represented. THEY DID THE SAME WITH STARS in conjunction with POF or other Lots (and they did the same with the dodekatemoria points as well)

byjove said:

Looking at the nice guide by Robert Hand, I keep coming back to Saturn in my chart - how malefic is he exactly? (He's conjunct my PoF).


Any more experienced hands that can better weigh up my natal Saturn? As I say he conjuncts my PoF so I think it's better I figure him out.

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just out of curiosity, what made you decide saturn resides fully in 6th/whole sign? as you know Saturn would be 5th Equal?

Thanks Dr. Farr for adding some background to the status of malefics and benifics. It's interesting to see how at different times, different people treated them. I found when considering lots the other day that there are some things we should update in my opinion, for example how the in world do I figure out my lot of marriage? If we're talking female/female or male/male marriage (which I don't believe was anyway considered back then, let alone a lot devised). So I think we can leave SOME parts of the past there, and 'update' our systems. I guess I might try ASC + Sun-Mars/ Saturn-Mars for male/male marriage.

A50, I read recently that the Greeks used Whole Sign for finding where in a native's life effects are shown, and other systems (there is debate everywhere I go about whether it was Equal, the start of Placidus or Porphyry --I stress the origin of the latter two, as we know those men whose names were used for those systems later on weren't yet born) for assessing a planet's 'strength'. So it just happens that the works I've been reading recently seem to use Whole Sign for our idea of 'house', which I believe they called 'places' and in my chart, it seems Saturn is in my 'sixth place' (from ASC). Anything I read on ancient use of Equal/Whole/Other I'm investigating, since I don't see good reason to use the newer systems without question, and seeing how religion and 'accidents' and 'availability' affected some houses develpments...

Either way, with the Sun, Moon and ASC calculation the PoF is conjunct my Saturn, whichever the system.

JupiterASC, thank you again for the links! I'm confident I have a better grip on my natal Saturn's dignity. It seems that my Saturn is in his own face AND term AND triplicity (important even more as a sect ruler) and this is considered essential dignity. Add to that, having a malefic locked away a little in a cadent house, and Vettius Valens says that having the Sun or Jupiter in aspect helps, and I've the first by aspect the both by sign. This calms me on fearing I'll lose what I gain because of Saturn's influence. I do know this though; Valens referred to natives with Saturn preceding an angle as showing a 'humble start to life' even if they overturned their fortunes and became wealthy later on. Great!

How about Fortuna conj. the Moon, I never hear about this one? Nor do the charts show any points alloted to Fortuna if Trine, Sextile or Conj. Fortuna.

I am curious since I have this placement. My Part of Fortune is at 22* Pisces in the 5th House, and Tightly Conj. my Moon at 20* Pisces. Virtually, my Fortuna has no squares, oppositions or Conj. from the Sun and is Trine my Mars and Mercury.

The only bad thing is it is in the Terms of Mars, but I don't really see it that bad, since there is more Benefic than Malefic going on here. Anyway's does anyone have an input on the Moon aspecting Fortuna through Trine, Sextile or Conj.?

Well which house does the Moon rule in your chart? The condition of it's dispositor? I've seen Vettius Valens show how the house ruled by a planet conjunct the PoF can show talents or abilities connected to how/where money is earned.

byjove said:

Well which house does the Moon rule in your chart? The condition of it's dispositor? I've seen Vettius Valens show how the house ruled by a planet conjunct the PoF can show talents or abilities connected to how/where money is earned.

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The Moon rules my 9th House Cancer, and is disposited by Jupiter. Jupiter is conjunct my ASC and Spica (no bad aspects, except the Sun Conj.), but also combust and in the 12th House. Although it is Oriental (Rising before the Sun), and In-Sect. Final Dispositor is Venus, which disposits itself in Libra, in her own house of joy the 12th.

Although I think I read somewhere that if the Sun Conj. any planet from a different sign (or house) isn't really combust in Traditional Terms, not sure where though. Can someone correct me on this one?

Jupiter is in Libra, and Sun in Scorpio in the 1st House.

SniperBomber328 said:

The Moon rules my 9th House Cancer, and is disposited by Jupiter. Jupiter is conjunct my ASC and Spica (no bad aspects, except the Sun Conj.), but also combust and in the 12th House. Although it is Oriental (Rising before the Sun), and In-Sect. Final Dispositor is Venus, which disposits itself in Libra, in her own house of joy the 12th. Although I think I read somewhere that if the Sun Conj. any planet from a different sign (or house) isn't really combust in Traditional Terms, not sure where though. Can someone correct me on this one? Jupiter is in Libra, and Sun in Scorpio in the 1st House.

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here's some advice from Olivia on combustion

Olivia said:

If it's within 17 minutes of the Sun, it's cazimi.
If it's further than that, and up to 8-1/2 degrees away, it's combust, even if it's in a different sign.
From 8-1/2 to 15 degrees away it's under the beams, which means it's slightly weakened, but not as much as combustion would weaken it.
Basically what happens in cazimi is the planet is considered to be 'sitting in the lap of the king' and is given great power.
In combustion, the planet's power is transferred to the Sun, so will always act in service to the Sun - which is likely to come with one great gift. Merc/Sun combust is often the sign of a very good writer, for example, but one can get awfully caught up in one's own opinions to the point of not listening to others, Venus combust in Taurus is often the guy who can bed just about any woman but can't establish a permanent relationship, Venus combust in Libra is often a gorgeous woman trapped in a miserable marriage, and so forth.
Jupiter could give wealth, make you a good barrister or a judge, possibly fame, but you might be awfully pompous.
Combust planets for women (any planet) seem to be bad for marriage as a rule, though it doesn't seem to hold true quite so much for men, though it depends on the planet, and I'd definitely still look at it.
A good tutorial on cazimi versus combustion is the Book or Scroll of Ester (which may or may not be in your bible depending on what version you've got). Consider Ester to be cazimi, and a whole lot of other folks in the story combust (even Haman goes combust eventually!). Read in that light you might get a whole new appreciation of biblical literature as well.

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QUOTE
Bonatti said that Venus rejoices in the 5th house because it is the "house of joy, delight and dance." Note that the two benefic planets, Jupiter and Venus, rejoice in two opposite houses that modern astrologers consider beneficial. FROM http://garybrandastrology.com/articles/Traditional/JoysofPlanets4.10.2001.html

SniperBomber328 said:

The Moon rules my 9th House Cancer, and is disposited by Jupiter. Jupiter is conjunct my ASC and Spica (no bad aspects, except the Sun Conj.), but also combust and in the 12th House. Although it is Oriental (Rising before the Sun), and In-Sect. Final Dispositor is Venus, which disposits itself in Libra, in her own house of joy the 12th.

Although I think I read somewhere that if the Sun Conj. any planet from a different sign (or house) isn't really combust in Traditional Terms, not sure where though. Can someone correct me on this one?

Jupiter is in Libra, and Sun in Scorpio in the 1st House.

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“For technical purposes, in Western astrology, most ancient and medieval authorities considered a planet combust or burnt when its position was within 5-8 degrees on either side of the Sun. However, a planet will continue to be weakened by the Sun until it has elongated by 15-17 degrees from it. (Lilly says 17 degrees on p. 113 of Christian Astrology.) This positioning is said to be under the beams of the Sun, and although it may be stronger than being combust, it will still cause a noticeable weakening in a planet's effectiveness.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combust_(astrological_aspect)


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/combust.php

Cazimi
“So for a modern astrologer, Mars either cazimi or combust the sun is strengthened because Mars is considered fiery and hot, and thus benefits from meeting the fiery heat of the sun. But cold and dry Saturn would weaken when either combust or cazimi, because the nature of the sun is damaging to Saturn. Modern astrologers usually make no distinction between a planet being combust the sun or cazimi.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combust_(astrological_aspect)

Thank you astrologer 50 and jupiterasc. I know what combust and cazimi are (Olivia posted that exact post in my thread), but what I meant was that I read that a few ancient astrologers considered Combust when happening either in the same sign or same house (sorry I forget). If I could just remember where I read this and who were the one's to mention it.

I know Venus joy's in the 5th House, but she also joy's in the 12th as well. Like Saturn who joy's in the 1st and 12th, venus joy's in 5th and 12th.

At least is what I read in skyscript and here in the forums. Something about the ancients always seeing Venus in this part of the sky a lot, and even though the 12th is combust, Venus would still shine bright here.

Interesting to notice the changed allocations in Western astrology by the 13th century (and since) when compared with the original Greco/Roman allocations: from Manilius onward (into the early to mid Islamic transitional period) the joy of Venus was allocated to the 10th "place" (house), not the 5th (which was devoid of planetary joy allocations until the time of Bonatti, but which was considered by the ancients as the "sorrow" of Jupiter, being in opposition to the place/house of Jupiter's joy-the 11th place/house)