Will the judge agree with me?

This is my first post, so please go easy on me.

I've had a pretty ugly time of things with my ex-husband regarding my daughter. We've been to court several times and it looks like I may need to go back in the near future.

We didn't do so well last time... will the judge grant what I'm asking or will he grant my ex-husband's request?

I decided to ask this quesiton 10 minutes ago 4/17/08 10:27pm Eastern Time. My chart is 9/17/77 10:17am, Eastern time zone; my ex's is 12/21/75 (time unknown) Eastern time zone; my daughter's is 12/30/97 5:43am, Eastern time zone.

I just read a great book: The Fated Sky by Benson Bobrick, who pointed me in the direction of Lilly, whom I've only just very recently started reading. Until a month ago I didn't know astrology could answer questions like this. I can pull the charts and compare them, but I have an awful time trying to determine any sort of conclusive answers.

Would I look to the 7th house for "the decision of the jury" (even though it's actually a judge who decides)... or the 10th house for the judge? Or should I look to the 5th house representing my daughter?

I'd also like to know which method would serve me better: should I look to the judgment of the horary chart pulled for the time I decided to ask the question? Or should I compare my chart to my ex-husbands? I became interested in this method after reading Worsdale's explanation of why the Duke of Wellington would be victorious if he ever met Napoleon Bonaparte in battle. (Also from Bobrick's book.)

If anyone can help point me in the right direction, I'd be appreciative.

Hello, welcome to the forum, and thank you for taking an interest in your own charts!

'The Verdict' is seen by the 4th house in a horary chart; the Judge or arbiter, by the 10th.

Ideally what you want to see in a chart like this are aspects and reception between the querent (1st house) and the significators of these two houses.

Your ex-husband is represented by the 7th house.

Look to the condition of the 10th house ruler to see what kind of judge you have; a planet in good condition (by sign rulership, triplicity, or exaltation for example) will be a good judge, and fair. A planet in fall or detriment: maybe not such a good judge. It depends on whether the sign or planet representing the judge 'likes' your planet, or not.

Look to the Moon, her condition, her house, to provide the thrust of the question, and any aspects she makes to any of the abovementioned planets.

You can do your delineation on here, and we'll pitch in with our suggestions.

Best of luck (on both counts!).
AG

Hello Wilmingtonian! Very nice to find another member interested in horary astrology. William Lilly is the bible of Horary, but often not so easy to understand because of the old English. I therefore bought another horary book to help me out a little in the beginning.
Good other books are: John Frawley, "The horary textbook", Anthony Louis, "Horary astrology plain & simple "(he really makes it look easy).
What I did with Lilly was, that I photocopied the modern charts at the back of the book so I could put them next to me when I was reading one of his interpretations. His own square charts drove me mad, very difficult to see clearly.

Could you tell me if you were in Wilmington when asking this question? Some people are somewhere on holiday and then they have to use a different location for their charts then when they would have been at home.

Cheers, Starlink

Thanks for your help. To answer Starlink's question, yes I was in Wilmington, NC when I asked the question.

I'm going to attempt to paste a copy of the chart here. Oops! I guess I can't. I got a message saying I can only post links after posing 3 times. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Now for archergirl's guidance...

archergirl said:

Ideally what you want to see in a chart like this are aspects and reception between the querent (1st house) and the significators of these two houses.

Click to expand...

So that means I'd ideally find aspects and reception between Jupiter (me) and Jupiter/Neptune (verdict) and Mercury (judge)?

(I don't have firm grasp of reception. Who recieves whom? Or who is "applying" to the other planet?)

archergirl said:

Look to the condition of the 10th house ruler to see what kind of judge you have; a planet in good condition (by sign rulership, triplicity, or exaltation for example) will be a good judge, and fair. A planet in fall or detriment: maybe not such a good judge. It depends on whether the sign or planet representing the judge 'likes' your planet, or not.

Click to expand...

The 10th house ruler is Mercury who is in Taurus in the 5th house. So, triplicity is good, right? Mercury is in aspect to the Moon, which I assume would be good (though I've been told that quincunx is a challenging aspect). Mercury is also almost conjunct the Sun (I have no idea if that's good or bad in this instance. I would normally assume it strengthens Mercury, which is bad for me because...)

My ex-husband is represented by the 7th house ruler which is also Mercury. That leaves him in a pretty good position.

I am represented by Jupiter, which is in Capricorn, it's fall, which makes me a weaker player in this drama, right? Jupiter is in opposition to Mars, which cannot be good, even if Mars is also in it's fall. Furthermore, Jupiter is also the planet that represents the verdict (the ruler of the 4th house-Pisces on the cusp). That means I probably won't like the verdict either. (Just for giggles, I looked at Neptune, too, and what do you know? Neptune is opposed by Saturn.)

archergirl said:

Look to the Moon, her condition, her house, to provide the thrust of the question, and any aspects she makes to any of the abovementioned planets.

Click to expand...

This fascinated me because it never would have occurred to me to look to the Moon. Can you please tell me what the Moon represents in this situation or what her energies will portend?

My analysis is thus: The moon is in the 10th house (I'll assume that's good - a luminary in the house of my public standing), in Libra (which I'll assume is neutral). Again, she is in aspect to Mercury. All things considered I'm going to say that I think the Moon is a pretty good shape.

My final answer? The judge (Mercury) will probably be fair. My ex-husband (Mercury) will probably be in good form and able to communicate his stance articulately. I (Jupiter) will be weak and ineffectual (in its fall) and opposed constantly (opposition to Mars). The verdict will also be weak & ineffectual (Jupiter in fall, opposed Mars), if not downright restricting of me (Neptune opposite Saturn).

At the risk of sound like a conspiracy theorist, I do find it odd that my ex and the judge are represented by the same planet while me and the nasty verdict also share a planet. (grumble, grumble)

Now someone PLEASE tell me that I did this all wrong!

And I'd love an explanation of where the Moon fits into the analysis. Thanks!

Hi Wilmingtonian,

I don't think you got any of it 'wrong', but I think that this is a very tricky chart.

There are a couple of considerations here that would lead me to suggest that you ask again instead of using this chart.

1. The Ascendant degree is less than 3 degrees, which means the question is premature somehow.

2. The Moon is in early degrees, and will 'take awhile' before it gets to its next aspect. This doesn't bar the chart from being read, but since ALL the relevant houses are taken by the same planets, it may be most prudent to reconsider the question to separate out the different elements.

It is clear from this chart that this is a custody case or a case concerning child support; the ruler of the 5th house of children, Mars, sits in your ex-husband's house of 'money and possessions'. If we take you as Jupiter, you are in mutual reception with your child, Mars, by exaltation: you love one another, but because there is an opposition, you can't 'help one another' right now.

But Lilly says:

Be not confident of the Judgment if either the first degrees or later of any Sign be ascending: if few degrees ascend, the matter is not yet ripe for judgment...

Click to expand...

This may be because a court date hasn't been set yet, or something like that. It might be better to wait until 'nearer the time' and ask again, for better results.

PS. I would also discourage you from using the outer planets (Neptune, Uranus, Pluto) in horary, except when they sit on a relevant angle. They can act like fixed stars here, but I wouldn't use them as primary significators. In horary, you don't need 'em. The same goes for quincunxes and other aspects. Really, all you need are trines, sextiles, oppositions, squares, and conjunctions. They work marvelously.

Cheers,
AG

Hi Wilmingtonian! I must congratulate you on your efforts here. I wished more members would be so dedicated, I am impressed by how quickly you pick things up after only a month.

You asked:

it never would have occurred to me to look to the Moon. Can you please tell me what the Moon represents in this situation or what her energies will portend?

Click to expand...

The Moon in horary is very important. Firstly because it co-represents the Querent (so in this chart you are signified by Jupiter and the Moon), except when the house of the Quisited falls in Cancer. Then the Moon will signify the quisited, not anymore the Querent.

Then the Moon is used for timing events. (not only the Moon, but she is a very important tool for that).

Furthermore one looks at what the Moon is going to do in the sign she is in. How many aspects and what sort of aspects will she make before she leaves the sign she is in. If the last aspect is very favorable, like a trine to the Sun or Jupiter or Venus, then that speaks in favor of the outcome and the other way around. Squares and oppositions show difficulties to overcome.

There is only one really awful situation for the Moon to be in and that is when she is combusted (close conjunction)by the Sun, especially when ingoing. When outgoing it is a little bit less horrific. In such a case I think you can just as well put the chart away

The Moon is looked at when one wants to know if the chart is radical, or fit to be judged. Like the early Ascendant (first 3 degrees)or a too late Ascendant (last 3 degrees of a sign), the Moon can be VOC (Void of Course).
She does not make any aspect anymore before leaving her sign. This can happen even fairly early in a sign. A VOC Moon means that "nothing will come of the matter" and in cases where one is afraid something terrible might happen, it can mean : "dont worry, nothing wil happen". The Moon cannot act anymore in that position.

These are a few Moon things to look out for because they are very important factors.

In this chart, the Moon is actually lucky in Libra because she is accidentally dignified because of her position in that 10th house and also because she is in her own face (dignity). If she would not have been there, (from 0°-10°) but in a later degree, she would not have had any dignity and be Peregrine which is also very weak.

She is at the beginning of the sign. This shows that the issue we are talking about here, has just started and there could still be a lot to come.

The Moon (you) is in the house of the Judge and in a very appropriate sign as we are talking here of a judgement. This is also something you could notice as a sign for a "radical" chart. (maybe contradicting a bit the early Ascendant, telling us that more information on the subject will still come your way).

This Moon shows that you are emotionally concerned about a judging matter as it were.
In your book from Lilly, you will find the Table of Ptolemy's Essential Dignities and Debilities. I photocopied it and put it into a plastic cover and have it always next to me. There you can see, that in this sign, the Moon is at 2° in the term of Saturn. This shows a bit the emotional state you are in, a bit depressed about it all and especially about your financial situation as Saturn rules your 2nd house of finances and your 3rd of thoughts.

So this is a little bit about the Moon, as you asked.

I also suggest that you ask a new question again in a couple of weeks maybe when you hopefully have gotten a bit more information about the case.

Hope I could be a bit of help. Cheers, Starlink

Wow. That's so much to absorb. The both of you were very, very accurate in what you said, too.

archergirl said:

It is clear from this chart that this is a custody case or a case concerning child support; the ruler of the 5th house of children, Mars, sits in your ex-husband's house of 'money and possessions'. If we take you as Jupiter, you are in mutual reception with your child, Mars, by exaltation: you love one another, but because there is an opposition, you can't 'help one another' right now.

Click to expand...

Without going into details, I can tell you that is exactly the problem. There are some things my daughter needs to do that she just can't do right now.

starlink said:

I must congratulate you on your efforts here. I wished more members would be so dedicated, I am impressed by how quickly you pick things up after only a month.

Click to expand...

Ha! Lilly is still Greek to me. I felt like I was grasping at any meaning I could find. I think you're too generous, but I'll take it. Thanks.

It's just as you said. This is a very emotional time which is especially conflicting as my decision has to be at least in part a financial one. The question isn't always, "What's the right thing to do?" It becomes, "What's can I afford to do?" It stinks, but I guess that's the nature of ex-husbands.

archergirl said:

If we take you as Jupiter, you are in mutual reception with your child, Mars, by exaltation

Click to expand...

Does this mean that we're in mutual reception because both of our representative plantes are in their fall? What does it mean to be in mutual reception in terms of chart interpretation?

starlink said:

the Moon is actually lucky in Libra because she is accidentally dignified because of her position in that 10th house and also because she is in her own face (dignity).

Click to expand...

I don't think I understand this, either. I think I understand essential dignity, but I'm lost on accidental dignity.

Thank you both for your help. I wasn't expecting to get so much guidance. I'm looking forward to posting here often.

Hi Wilmingtonian,

Does this mean that we're in mutual reception because both of our representative plantes are in their fall? What does it mean to be in mutual reception in terms of chart interpretation?

Click to expand...

Jupiter and Mars are both in the signs of their fall; they are powerless to act. However, they behold one another in the sign of the other's exaltation: Jupiter is exalted in Cancer, where Mars is currently, and Mars is exalted in Capricorn, where Jupiter is currently. Mutual reception like this means that while each planet individually is powerless, they 'love' the other planet a great deal. Because this is an opposition and not a trine, they are less able to bring anything positive about from their reception.

Accidental dignity is shown by things like house placement; a planet in an angular house (1st/4th/7th/10th) has a lot of 'accidental' dignity simply by being in that house.

AG