Random Thoughts, strictly Text

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
The reason that you gave to Dirius for not killing inferior life is the Christian, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Ein Sof is also divine infinity, and infinity has no ending or beginning. Its the same thing as saying existence is eternal.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
The reason that you gave to Dirius for not killing inferior life is the Christian, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

No, the real reason why is because it's in your rational self-interest to not kill other people.

Ein Sof is also divine infinity, and infinity has no ending or beginning. Its the same thing as saying existence is eternal.

No, the universe isn't infinite. It is finite.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
A paraphrase of what you said is, "You want them to respect your right to life so you don't harm them."

So what's your point?


Proof?

And, how is something eternal yet finite?

Well, existence can't stop existing, so it's always there, which makes it eternal.

It's finite because everything has an identity. Everything is a thing. Things don't go on forever and unlimited. Otherwise it couldn't have an identity. It couldn't be a thing.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
So what's your point?




Well, existence can't stop existing, so it's always there, which makes it eternal.

It's finite because everything has an identity. Everything is a thing. Things don't go on forever and unlimited. Otherwise it couldn't have an identity. It couldn't be a thing.

My point is, its the same as the golden rule i.e. a Christian ethic.

What is your definition of "thing"? Do you agree that everything in the universe is constituted by the same substances at the sub-atomic/quantum level?
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
Because then your attitude toward religion would be paradoxical, since you criticize it yet hold its some of its axioms and reasons as your own.

Not true.

On a fundamental level, I couldn't be more opposed to religion. Metaphysically and epistemologically I am completely different than religion. Ethically, I may have a few commonalities. But my ethics are superior because I have rational reasons for my ethical views. Religious morality is taken on faith and provides no rational basis for its ethics. There are Christians who provide rational reasons for some of their views, but if that's the case, why not abandon religion completely if you are already basing your ethics on a rational basis on not on faith.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
My point is, its the same as the golden rule i.e. a Christian ethic.

Maybe, in this case, it appears that I am advocating the Golden Rule but I am not. If I was a masochist, for example, that would mean that I should hurt other people according to the Golden Rule. But that's obviously ridiculous.

Or take another example, some people are introverted and others are extraverted. Would it be right for an introvert to be quiet around an extravert and an extravert to talk the ears off of an introvert? No.

The Golden Rule is simplistic and dumb.

What is your definition of "thing"? Do you agree that everything in the universe is constituted by the same substances at the sub-atomic/quantum level?

What I mean to say is that you can't count forever. At some point, you will have counted everything that exists. It does not go on forever. Infinity can only go on for something like numbers in math. You can always count higher if you want. But in reality, at some point there is a stopping point.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
It's irrational to ask why there is a universe. Existence exists because it exists. There's no reason why it exists, it just does.

There is no real meaning behind it.

That would be wishful thinking, but highly unreasonable, considering that our universe exists and acts according to almost perfect laws of nature. Its only natural that the question on whether it has meaning or not would occupy the minds of humans.

And their deeds are always discovered. And if they aren't discovered, they could've achieved so much more in life if they chose a virtuous path. Lying and cheating really doesn't get you far, honestly.

A robber for example that never gets caught might do pretty well for himself, but he probably has to move all the time, constantly is worried about getting found out, doesn't have good friends or family to rely on since people who steal only attract other people who steal, or people who are too weak to avoid getting stolen from, if he has a conscience he'll be miserable because he knows he's not a good person, etc... and that's assuming he doesn't get found out. If you make a living by stealing from people it's inevitable that people will find out and will punish you for it.

That is anecdotal and not empirically true, because there are a large amount of crimes (such as goverment corruption) that go unpunished, unnoticed and largely without problems. You are just stating that the actions of commiting a crime my bring some form of hassle, but that isn't punishment, and its not distinct from any other sort of annoyance inherent to any type of honest job.

I don't understand how being an atheist would make you think that you should kill whoever you want. There's no reason to kill them unless they are harming you or people you love. And yes, people can actually be moral without God. Explain how Christians can pick and choose from the bible??? They know what is right or wrong simply from the little reason they exercise.

We already decide what is right and wrong. The people that wrote the bible, hate to break it to you, didn't write it because God told them. They made up their own morals and pretended that God told them.

I agree, why keep a growing cancer in your body if you don't want it. You shouldn't keep it. Religion forces you to keep something you don't want. What a bunch of nonsense.

You are sort of answering your own question of killing whoever you want, by comparing an unborn child with a cancerous growth. You have given yourself the authority to classify human life as either "worthy" or "parasitic" already. And you are doing so based on your perceived moral value.

What you are doing is simply trying to dehumanise the subject, by comparing it to cancer. In essence, you are applying a different biological category to a human, so it suits your needs. And your claim behind it is probably what you call "reason". This already shows that the value of human life to you, is never absolute, but rather changing according to what you desire. And given your desires are based on what you call "reason", how you can state that atheism does not devolve into harming others is just mind blowing.

Christians are supposed to follow the New Testament, most of the times, which in many situations replaces some of the dogma from the Old Testament. Whether it is divinely inspired or not, matters little, because the core principle of christianity is of mutual and equal respect among equal people.
Not true. People always have the choice to think for themselves if they choose to. I don't see how believing in God is any better or any different than believing in the state. You should be jsut as critical of religion if not more so because a religious authority figure doesn't even exist.

Oh really? What makes you say so?

Not true. Atheism doesn't lead you to that.

There's many reasons to not kill inferior people. My first reason, you respect their life because you expect them to respect your right to life.

The more people there are, living freely, the better the world is not only other's but for you too. Killing people doesn't help you.

Again, that is anecdotal. The reasons you can profess, in an atheist darwinian world, are only valid as long as the existance of the individual suits your needs, or does not directly interfere with your life. But if the individual generated some sort of problem or inconvinience to you, there is no reason to stop you from killing him because there is no consequences.
So just because you can enumerate reasons as to why peace may be more profitable than violence to an atheistic world view, there is no reason as to why not forgo those reasons if peace becomes a problem.

A state can affect everyones life. The personal belief of other people does not. Whether you believe in a God or not does not directly affect me, at most what it would affect me would be your own personal decisions regarding your interpretation of that religion. But then again the person affecting me, would be you and not your God. When it comes to the state and goverment, your ideas of goverment directly affect me.

Belief is untangible, but by creating a living God in the form of the state, you are creating your own undoing, by giving an entity godlike influence. By removing God from the equation, humans try to fill this gap by creating the "all protecting, all governing and powerful state".
 
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conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Maybe, in this case, it appears that I am advocating the Golden Rule but I am not. If I was a masochist, for example, that would mean that I should hurt other people according to the Golden Rule. But that's obviously ridiculous.

Or take another example, some people are introverted and others are extraverted. Would it be right for an introvert to be quiet around an extravert and an extravert to talk the ears off of an introvert? No.

The Golden Rule is simplistic and dumb.



What I mean to say is that you can't count forever. At some point, you will have counted everything that exists. It does not go on forever. Infinity can only go on for something like numbers in math. You can always count higher if you want. But in reality, at some point there is a stopping point.

Okay, thanks for explaining where you are coming from with regard to finitude.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
That would be wishful thinking, but highly unreasonable, considering that our universe exists and acts according to almost perfect laws of nature. Its only natural that the question on whether it has meaning or not would occupy the minds of humans.

Again, a universe that contradicts itself couldn't exist.

It may be a natural question in our minds, but it's a question that sneaks in the wrong answer. It implies that the universe was created by something. The universe wasn't created by anything.

That is anecdotal and not empirically true, because there are a large amount of crimes (such as goverment corruption) that go unpunished, unnoticed and largely without problems. You are just stating that the actions of commiting a crime my bring some form of hassle, but that isn't punishment, and its not distinct from any other sort of annoyance inherent to any type of honest job.

It is a punishment. If they were virtuous they would've been rewarded. When you are virtuous, and being virtuous means being honest, just, independent, rational, productive, having integrity and pride you live a much better life than choosing to not live with those virtues. It's not anecdotal.

People who don't live with these virtues are miserable and unhappy people. I think this is self-evident. If you don't believe me, be my guest and live without these virtues and see how far you can get.


You are sort of answering your own question of killing whoever you want, by comparing an unborn child with a cancerous growth. You have given yourself the authority to classify human life as either "worthy" or "parasitic" already. And you are doing so based on your perceived moral value.

Abortion isn't exactly a straight-forward topic.

But I would say that woman has a right to her life, and an unborn child is a threat to the right of her life, therefore she shouldn't have to deal with it. So I actually do care about life.

Christians are supposed to follow the New Testament, most of the times, which in many situations replaces some of the dogma from the Old Testament. Whether it is divinely inspired or not, matters little, because the core principle of christianity is of mutual and equal respect among equal people.

Too bad it's taken on faith and fear of hell rather than by logical understanding.

Again, that is anecdotal. The reasons you can profess, in an atheist darwinian world, are only valid as long as the existance of the individual suits your needs, or does not directly interfere with your life. But if the individual generated some sort of problem or inconvinience to you, there is no reason to stop you from killing him because there is no consequences.
So just because you can enumerate reasons as to why peace may be more profitable than violence to an atheistic world view, there is no reason as to why not forgo those reasons if peace becomes a problem.

Well if someone broke into my house and threatened my life and family, then I don't see why I shouldn't kill that person.

But to kill people who have harmed no one? That only wastes your time and energy, destroys any possibility of that person serving your self-interest by taking part in the free market, and killing people makes people not want to trust you and will probably try to kill you.

A state can affect everyones life. The personal belief of other people does not. Whether you believe in a God or not does not directly affect me, at most what it would affect me would be your own personal decisions regarding your interpretation of that religion. But then again the person affecting me, would be you and not your God. When it comes to the state and goverment, your ideas of goverment directly affect me.

Belief is untangible, but by creating a living God in the form of the state, you are creating your own undoing.

Subservience to the state or God are both evil regardless.
 
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