A reinterpretation of a traditional triplicity system

As you probably know, there are multiple systems of triplicities, mainly Dorethean, Ptolemy’s and Morin’s. From my experience, most astrologers settle on Dorothean. It’s understandable since that’s the oldest recorded system of triplicities (correct me if I’m wrong) and many astrologers have satisfactory results using them. However, I’ve never truly understood the system behind neither Dorothean nor Ptolemy’s triplicities. I mean, the idea of triplicities makes perfect sense to me but the choice of planets for each element and sect is not clear. I’ve seen some attempts at explanations but they were rather inconsistent and didn’t convince me. There is an understandable structure in Morin’s triplicities but I have no idea why it should make sense, according to him. So I pondered if I can rework this system so it makes sense and can be explained and I think I got it. Of course, I’m totally OK if you disagree with me, I want to discuss my idea, not shove it down your throat.

So that’s how my proposed system looks overall:

Element | Day ruler | Night ruler | Participating ruler
Fire | Sun | Jupiter | Mars
Earth | Venus | Saturn | Mercury
Air | Saturn | Mercury | Venus
Water | Mars | Moon | Jupiter

I’m not completely decided on participating rulers but I’m pretty sure about day and night rulers. So, as you can see, there are three main disagreements between my system and Dorothean. Those differences are: Saturn as the night ruler for earth instead of the Moon (just like Morin thinks, hmm), Mars as the day ruler for water instead of Venus (it matches Ptolemy though) and the Moon as the night ruler for water instead of Mars (interesting that Morin thinks so too, even though I disagree with his idea).

The main reasoning here is that each element opposing to another (pairs fire-air and earth-water) are represented by opposing planets. I know about the concept of planetary friends and enemies but that’s not what I imply. What I mean boils down to domiciles. For instance, take the pair Sun for fire in the daytime and Saturn for air in the daytime. The Sun, ruling Leo is opposite Saturn, ruling Aquarius. So this way the “bond” is formed. You can take any other pair to check it. Each of the planets is like a weight on scales, so that’s why each pair has to happen in the same sect. In my example, it’s Saturn who balances the Sun in the daytime and vice versa.

So now explaining the choice for each planet. The Sun is quite obviously the day ruler for fire because it rules Leo and Saturn, the ruler of Aquarius, quite naturally balances it being a day ruler for air. The Moon is the night ruler for water because it rules Cancer and Saturn, the ruler of Capricorn, also balances it being a night ruler for earth. OK, those two pairs were probably the easiest ones. The next pairs are Mercury-Jupiter and Venus-Mars, but here it is somewhat harder to determine the right place. Let’s take Mercury and Venus, for example. Quite obviously, it is either Mercury as the day ruler for earth (Virgo) and Venus as the night ruler for air (Libra) or Mercury as the night ruler for air (Gemini) and Venus as the day ruler for earth (Taurus). I think the latter option is better. Maybe my explanation can seem a bit slippery, but the thing is that air signs in general are detached which goes better along with thinking, analysis etc. (Mercury) while earth signs in general make an emphasis on sensing and feeling (Venus). Virgo is still a great placement for Mercury, ditto with Libra for Venus, but the general meaning of elements they belong to is a bit different. We can also analyze Mars and Jupiter. Here we have Mars as the night ruler for fire (Aries) and Jupiter as the day ruler for water (Pisces) or Mars as the day ruler for water (Scorpio) and Jupiter as the night ruler for fire (Sagittarius). Once again, I think the latter option is better. Jupiter risks being too biased and subjective in the daytime, being heated by the Sun, to carry any essential dignity, especially since we’re talking about emotional water signs. Mars, on the other hand, doesn’t have a good drive to act in the colder nighttime, while in the daytime there’s enough solar energy to keep its wheels moving (the Sun makes water boil!). So overall, everything falls into place rather nicely. As for participating rulers, all of them rule a sign of an element that wasn’t used for determining day or night rulers. Yes, Morin uses the same logic but I have nothing to do with him, I swear! :crying: By the way, notice how all of 12 signs have their meaning in this system because all of them helped to determine rulers of each sect + the participating one. If you don’t like my explanation, I can try to come up with a better one!

So now knowing about possible objections (which are probably fair!), I’ll try to speak about some I’d have myself.

1. Why would Saturn be the night ruler for a triplicity of feminine signs? Neither its sect nor sign polarity corresponds to the fact that Saturn is a diurnal planet. It’s a very fair objection. One thing I’d want to point out though is that Saturn is also a ruler of air signs, which are masculine, in the daytime. Notice how Venus, for example, rules a triplicity of feminine signs in the daytime in any system, so there is a blend of two energies. The same with Jupiter. With Mars is depends on the system, but overall if there is a logic, I don’t see why Mars should be viewed as an exception. With the Sun and the Moon the situation is clearer. The Sun is the primary masculine (yang) energy so there is no meaning to mix it with some feminine (yin) energy. The reverse is true for the Moon. Saturn is the only planet which sect and polarity are the same in both cases because its purpose is to balance the Sun and the Moon, but its duality is what keeps it balanced too. Yes, Saturn is still a diurnal planet, I’m not making a revolutionary “discovery” here, so it’s still easier to deal with diurnal Saturn that with the nocturnal one, but it doesn’t mean that it is the reason to ditch Saturn as having no dignity in earth signs in the nighttime. I believe that triplicities are related to sects but they are very different in their meanings and purposes.

2. Why two Saturns? It seems like it’s one Saturn too much. I agree, it’s actually two Saturns too much, hehe. (What a nasty planet). However, why should there be two Venuses? Or two Marses? There are 7 planets (traditionally at least) so there is one hole that has to be filled with something, and there should be a good reason for that. I think the reason, as I explained it, is quite sufficient.

3. But what about the Moon in Scorpio? It’s in fall... Well, that’s correct, but the Moon in Capricorn is even worse, because it’s in detriment, and fall is the lesser of two evils. Triplicity doesn’t completely eliminate the debility of fall, just like with Venus in Virgo and Mars in Cancer. However, it puts a planet into more comfortable conditions and gives an extra boost so the planet can at least partially achieve its potential and become less confined by being in fall. Scorpio is a highly emotional and sensitive sign, even being ruled by Mars, but its feelings and emotions often get streamed into anger, jealousy, passionate hate etc., but in the nighttime all those aggressive feelings are more moderate and less intense.

I can’t really say I’ve legitimately tested my system but, you know, it’s not easy. However, I can give you my example. I was born in the nighttime and in my system my Jupiter, Moon and Saturn are in triplicity. In Dorothean triplicities I have Jupiter and Mars in triplicity. I'll take my Saturn as an example. My Saturn is peregrine (not in any kind of reception also!). I honestly think I’m quite lucky dealing with Saturnian matters. Yes, it’s not always easy to put my Saturn under control because it’s out of sect but overall I know when to stop, how to do things on time, how to be responsible and accept mistakes etc. The boundaries which Saturn sets in general are very understandable to me and I deal with them quite successfully. I’m not poisoned with depressive thoughts even though Saturn is prominent in my chart. It’s always me who stops my friends, family members or other people when I see they act aggressively, disrespectfully or break the “laws” in general. I can sometimes throw a tantrum but I’m still fully aware of how and why I’m doing it because there always is a reason for it. OK, I understand that my Saturn can’t be compared in its strength to the ones in Capricorn and Aquarius, but somehow I find it hard to believe that it’s peregrine. (As a side note, I don’t have any personal planets in Capricorn and Aquarius). Another important thing is that my Almuten changes depending on the system (using Ibn Ezra’s method). If I use Dorothean triplicities, it’s Mars, but in my system it’s the Moon. I honestly feel like the Moon being my Almuten is closer to my personality. My Mars is comparatively strong, but I generally lean towards the Moon as reflecting the core of my personality better.

So what do you think? Congratulations and thank you if you’ve read my post entirely. :happy: I appreciate it.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Re: A new triplicity system?

Morin was a scholar, and tried to analyse astrology from a scientific perspective, so he built the triplicity scheme based on the observation of the planetary qualities/gender/attributes/etc. That is why, for example, he assigns Mars to the fire rulership, a hot/dry planet that rules a fire sign, as ruler of Fire signs seemed more logical to him.

However the regular triplicities are based on sect, and its quite simple:

Day sect planets: Sun, Jupiter, Saturn.
Night sect planets: Moon, Venus, Mars.

Day sect planets rule the day triplicities (masculine): Fire and Air
Night sect planets rule the night triplicities (feminine): Earth and Water

The only sort of unclear assigment is Mercury, whose sect usually varies, although is not uncommon for authors to treat him as the emmisary of the Sun and thus belonging to the Day sect.

The problem with Morin is that he commits the sin of simplifying astrology into a power/debility analysis. If you don't think of triplicities just as essential dignity (the "+3" in the dreaded almuten tables), the usefulness of the triplicity scheme becomes more evident. The triplicity scheme is better understood when applied to a practical technique that does not directly revolve around essential dignity. Most of these are found in hellenistic texts. Many triangle techniques are based on the state of the triplicity rulers, which don't directly correlate to the usual ways of checking how strong a planet really is. To truly understand the essential dignity table, the best is to dismiss the power structure established in Bonatti's table (+5, +4, +3, etc.), which is fine for Horary and some birth chart techniques, but don't exactly represent what essential dignity truly is.

I personally enjoyed Astrologia Gallica, I don't particularly agree with it, buts its a good read. Although, I recommend it as a theoreticl lesson in the history of astrology only. Morinus tried to re-invent astrology in a more scientific manner and rejected a lot of astrological content, such as Horary.
 
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Re: A new triplicity system?

Morinus was a scholar, and tried to analyse astrology from a scientific perspective, so he built the triplicity scheme based on the observation of the planetary qualities/gender/attributes/etc. That is why, for example, he assigns Mars to the fire rulership, a hot/dry planet that rules a fire sign, as ruler of Fire signs seemed more logical to him.

However the regular triplicities are based on sect, and its quite simple:

Day sect planets: Sun, Jupiter, Saturn.
Night sect planets: Moon, Venus, Mars.

Day sect planets rule the day triplicities (masculine): Fire and Air
Night sect planets rule the night triplicities (feminine): Earth and Water

The only sort of unclear assigment is Mercury, whose sect usually varies, although is not uncommon for authors to treat him as the emmisary of the Sun and thus belonging to the Day sect.

Hmm, thanks. I guess if I ever saw an explanation that was as simple and clear as yours, I'd have a lot less problems for understanding the principle of choice for planets.

However, why, for example, should Saturn necessarily be in the day sect while it could chill in the night sect along with Jupiter? Would Mercury in air signs feel worse in the daytime? What's the reason here? I know, I know, Saturn is a diurnal planet, but so is Jupiter. I hope you understand the question I intend. And further, why isn't Venus in the night sect and Mars in the day sect? I've read that Mars is already too hot and dry for the day sect, but I think it referred to the possibility of it being assigned to fire signs. I think if it was in water signs, the qualities of wetness and coldness would already mitigate Mars' dryness and hotness to the extent it could be accepted for the day sect, no?

Another thing that made me wonder about the choice of planets was also the fact that one planet has to be chosen twice. Why is it Venus? Or Mars? What is the reason here? So I thought, quite naturally, that there has to be a good reason for choosing such planet and this was the main reason of me remembering "Hey, it's interesting how Saturn both rules Capricorn and Aquarius, which are the opposites of Leo and Cancer". Then I began building this system in my head and I thought "Hey, that makes sense, doesn't it?"

Well, and another reason was also the fact that my Saturn doesn't really cause me many troubles while it should. As I said, there is no essential dignity in it and it's prominent in my chart, as well as out of sect, so I'd expect *some* spheres of my life being more challenged than they are. However, that isn't the case. I'm not very stubborn here though, maybe I should reconsider my views and see myself more objectively because it seems like I wasn't...
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Re: A new triplicity system?

Hmm, thanks. I guess if I ever saw an explanation that was as simple and clear as yours, I'd have a lot less problems for understanding the principle of choice for planets.

a) However, why, for example, should Saturn necessarily be in the day sect while it could chill in the night sect along with Jupiter? Would Mercury in air signs feel worse in the daytime? What's the reason here? I know, I know, Saturn is a diurnal planet, but so is Jupiter. I hope you understand the question I intend. And further, why isn't Venus in the night sect and Mars in the day sect? I've read that Mars is already too hot and dry for the day sect, but I think it referred to the possibility of it being assigned to fire signs. I think if it was in water signs, the qualities of wetness and coldness would already mitigate Mars' dryness and hotness to the extent it could be accepted for the day sect, no?

b) Another thing that made me wonder about the choice of planets was also the fact that one planet has to be chosen twice. Why is it Venus? Or Mars? What is the reason here? So I thought, quite naturally, that there has to be a good reason for choosing such planet and this was the main reason of me remembering "Hey, it's interesting how Saturn both rules Capricorn and Aquarius, which are the opposites of Leo and Cancer". Then I began building this system in my head and I thought "Hey, that makes sense, doesn't it?"

c) Well, and another reason was also the fact that my Saturn doesn't really cause me many troubles while it should. As I said, there is no essential dignity in it and it's prominent in my chart, as well as out of sect, so I'd expect *some* spheres of my life being more challenged than they are. However, that isn't the case. I'm not very stubborn here though, maybe I should reconsider my views and see myself more objectively because it seems like I wasn't...

Morin does make sense on what he writes, given he tried to apply some sort of logical scheme that seemed more fit. Problem is that he completly missed the purpose of the scheme (and of many other factors). He is usually dismissed by most of the traditional community, though heavily studied given that, even with all the controversies he still does provide a good read. However, its best to start with other authors.

I'm gonna answer your paragraph's in order:

a) I'm not sure what you ask here, but I presume you mean why is, for example, Jupiter the night triplicity lord of the fire triplicity, or Venus the day triplicity lord of the Earth and Water triplicities.

The order seems to come from how many essential connections a planet has to the triplicities. Certainly for the day sect, the day lor would be the first and most important, followed by the night lord and the helper. The opposite is true for the night sect, in which the night lord would be the first to matter, followed by the day lord. The planet with the most connections:

Fire:
day triplicity lord: Sun 2 connections (rulership of Leo, exaltation in Aries)
night triplicity lord: Jupiter 1 connection (rulership of Sagittarius)
helping lord: Saturn 0 connection (- none -)

Air:
day triplicity lord: Saturn 2 connections (rulership of Aquarius, exaltation in Libra)
night triplicity lord: Mercury 1 connection (rulership of Gemini)
helping lord: Jupiter 0 connection (- none -)

Earth :
night triplicity lord: Moon 1 connections (Exaltation of Taurus)
day triplicity lord: Venus 1 connection (rulership of Taurus)
helping lord: Mars 1 connections (Exaltation in Capricorn)

Water:
night triplicity lord: Mars 1 connections (rulership of Scorpio)
day triplicity lord:Venus 1 connection (exaltation in Pisces)
helping lord:Moon 1 connection (rulership of Cancer).

The problem with the night signs is it seems that the planets are randomly assigned for the water and earth triplicities, given all the planets share 1 connection to it. This is also the reason why there is some inconsistency in the water triplicity that varies from author to author, which seemingly ssigns Mars as both ruler of day and night, and so on. Perhaps someone with more knowledge can accurately answer you the night triplicities reason.

b) This is hard to explain, mostly because we don't really know either. The answer to point B is also point A. The truth is that the night sect has less planets than the day sect, thus a planet is bound to repeat its position so the ancients might have simply assigned it that way for reasons that are unkown to us. As I showed u earlier, the Water triplicity seems the most hard to understand.

c) This relates to a number of things, whether your chart is day or night (Saturn behaves more badly in night charts), its aspect and the sign he is placed in. As I said before, not everything is calculated according to numerical stregth. :w00t:
 
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Re: A new triplicity system?

Morin does make sense on what he writes, given he tried to apply some sort of logical scheme that seemed more fit. Problem is that he completly missed the purpose of the scheme (and of many other factors). He is usually dismissed by most of the traditional community, though heavily studied given that, even with all the controversies he still does provide a good read. However, its best to start with other authors.

I'm gonna answer your paragraph's in order:

a) I'm not sure what you ask here, but I presume you mean why is, for example, Jupiter the night triplicity lord of the fire triplicity, or Venus the day triplicity lord of the Earth and Water triplicities.

The order seems to come from how many essential connections a planet has to the triplicities. Certainly for the day sect, the day lor would be the first and most important, followed by the night lord and the helper. The opposite is true for the night sect, in which the night lord would be the first to matter, followed by the day lord. The planet with the most connections:

Fire:
day triplicity lord: Sun 2 connections (rulership of Leo, exaltation in Aries)
night triplicity lord: Jupiter 1 connection (rulership of Sagittarius)
helping lord: Saturn 0 connection (- none -)

Air:
day triplicity lord: Saturn 2 connections (rulership of Aquarius, exaltation in Libra)
night triplicity lord: Mercury 1 connection (rulership of Gemini)
helping lord: Jupiter 0 connection (- none -)

Earth :
night triplicity lord: Moon 1 connections (Exaltation of Taurus)
day triplicity lord: Venus 1 connection (rulership of Taurus)
helping lord: Mars 1 connections (Exaltation in Capricorn)

Water:
night triplicity lord: Mars 1 connections (rulership of Scorpio)
day triplicity lord:Venus 1 connection (exaltation in Pisces)
helping lord:Moon 1 connection (rulership of Cancer).

The problem with the night signs is it seems that the planets are randomly assigned for the water and earth triplicities, given all the planets share 1 connection to it. This is also the reason why there is some inconsistency in the water triplicity that varies from author to author, which seemingly ssigns Mars as both ruler of day and night, and so on.

b) This is hard to explain, mostly because we don't really know either. The answer to point B is also point A. The truth is that the night sect has less planets than the day sect, thus a planet is bound to repeat its position so the ancients might have simply assigned it that way for reasons that are unkown to us. As I showed u earlier, the Water triplicity seems the most hard to understand.

c) This relates to a number of things, whether your chart is day or night (Saturn behaves more badly in night charts), its aspect and the sign he is placed in. As I said before, not everything is calculated according to numerical stregth. :w00t:

Thank you for making it clear and understandable! I really appreciate it. :happy: I'm not a fan of Morin's approach either because while there is logic in it, he doesn't explain WHY he uses and applies it in the way he does.

It's interesting that I agree with the traditional view on masculine signs and don't deviate from the traditional astrologers on this point (not with the participating rulers but, oh well, the fact that they have NO connection to the signs of triplicity is extremely suspicious to me). However, yeah, with feminine signs, as I can see, the situation is truly complicated. But we can't interview Dorotheus of Sidon right now because he's been, uh, unavailable for the past two millenia. :biggrin: So all we can do now is speculate...

Regarding my own Saturn, as I said, it's out of sect because I was born in the nighttime... It doesn't really have any stressful aspects though (some would say there's a pretty loose stressful aspect to Mars but if I use moiety, which I do, it doesn't really exist). I understand that it's much more complicated than scoring points for essential dignities/debilities, and actually that's the reason I brought my Saturn as an example. :smile:
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Re: A new triplicity system?

Thank you for making it clear and understandable! I really appreciate it. :happy: I'm not a fan of Morin's approach either because while there is logic in it, he doesn't explain WHY he uses and applies it in the way he does.

It's interesting that I agree with the traditional view on masculine signs and don't deviate from the traditional astrologers on this point (not with the participating rulers but, oh well, the fact that they have NO connection to the signs of triplicity is extremely suspicious to me). However, yeah, with feminine signs, as I can see, the situation is truly complicated. But we can't interview Dorotheus of Sidon right now because he's been, uh, unavailable for the past two millenia. :biggrin: So all we can do now is speculate...

Regarding my own Saturn, as I said, it's out of sect because I was born in the nighttime... It doesn't really have any stressful aspects though (some would say there's a pretty loose stressful aspect to Mars but if I use moiety, which I do, it doesn't really exist). I understand that it's much more complicated that scoring points for essential dignities/debilities, and actually that's the reason I brought my Saturn as an example. :smile:

Most of the "reasonings" we can apply to ancient techniques come from deduction. The ancients never care to explain much. Thus we can't be certain as to why somethings are the way they are, we can only apply some degree of deduction based on the implied charcteristics of the signs/planets.

Maybe someone else has a better theory, or explanation regarding the night sect signs. Its also needed to understand that the day/night rulership merely implies which planet has a certain degree of priority in the technique. In some of Dorotheus techniques we look at all the triplicity rulers, but the order is given according to their priority, yet we evaluate all of them.

Also, Valens provides a brief explanation on the planetary characteristics. In my opinion, it is just Valens trying to be poetic about "why" the order is the way it is, and does not present a factual reason. Its worth reading though.

1. The Triangles

When the zodiacal circle is subdivided according to similarities and differences, we find two sects, solar and lunar, day and night.

The sun, being fiery, is most related to Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius, and this triangle of the sun is called “of the day-sect” because it too is fiery by nature. The sun has attached Jupiter and Saturn to this sect as his co-workers and guardians of the things which he accomplishes: Jupiter as a reflection of the sun and as his successor to the kingship, a partisan of good, and the bestower of glory and life, Saturn on the other hand as a servant of evil and of downfall, and a depriver of years <of life>. Therefore the sun is the lord of this triangle for day births; for night births Jupiter succeeds to the throne; Saturn works with both.

Next the moon, being near the earth, is allotted the houserulership of Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn, a triangle earthy in nature and the next in order. It has Venus and Mars as members of the same sect: Venus (as is reasonable) acts as a benefactor and distributes glory and years; /56K/ Mars acts as the bane of nativities. Therefore for night births the moon has preeminence; in the second place is Venus; in the third is Mars. For day births Venus will lead; the moon will operate second; Mars, third. /55P/

Next is the airy triangle of Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius. For day births Saturn will rule this; Mercury will operate second; Jupiter, third. For night births Mercury will lead; Saturn will come second; Jupiter, third.

In the same fashion, next is the moist triangle of Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces. Mars will have the houserulership for night births; in the second place is Venus; in the third the moon. For day births Venus will lead; after it comes Mars; then the moon.

Note that Mercury is common and works with the two sects to a special degree to accentuate the good or the bad, and to accentuate the individual characteristics and configurations of each star.
 
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Re: A new triplicity system?

Most of the "reasonings" we can apply to ancient techniques come from deduction. The ancients never care to explain much. Thus we can't be certain as to why somethings are the way they are, we can only apply some degree of deduction based on the implied charcteristics of the signs/planets.

Maybe someone else has a better theory, or explanation regarding the night sect signs. Its also needed to understand that the day/night rulership merely implies which planet has a certain degree of priority in the technique. In some of Dorotheus techniques we look at all the triplicity rulers, but the order is given according to their priority, yet we evaluate all of them.

Also, Valens provides a brief explanation on the planetary characteristics. In my opinion, it is just Valens trying to be poetic about "why" the order is the way it is, and does not present a factual reason. Its worth reading though.

1. The Triangles

When the zodiacal circle is subdivided according to similarities and differences, we find two sects, solar and lunar, day and night.

The sun, being fiery, is most related to Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius, and this triangle of the sun is called “of the day-sect” because it too is fiery by nature. The sun has attached Jupiter and Saturn to this sect as his co-workers and guardians of the things which he accomplishes: Jupiter as a reflection of the sun and as his successor to the kingship, a partisan of good, and the bestower of glory and life, Saturn on the other hand as a servant of evil and of downfall, and a depriver of years <of life>. Therefore the sun is the lord of this triangle for day births; for night births Jupiter succeeds to the throne; Saturn works with both.

Next the moon, being near the earth, is allotted the houserulership of Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn, a triangle earthy in nature and the next in order. It has Venus and Mars as members of the same sect: Venus (as is reasonable) acts as a benefactor and distributes glory and years; /56K/ Mars acts as the bane of nativities. Therefore for night births the moon has preeminence; in the second place is Venus; in the third is Mars. For day births Venus will lead; the moon will operate second; Mars, third. /55P/

Next is the airy triangle of Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius. For day births Saturn will rule this; Mercury will operate second; Jupiter, third. For night births Mercury will lead; Saturn will come second; Jupiter, third.

In the same fashion, next is the moist triangle of Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces. Mars will have the houserulership for night births; in the second place is Venus; in the third the moon. For day births Venus will lead; after it comes Mars; then the moon.

Note that Mercury is common and works with the two sects to a special degree to accentuate the good or the bad, and to accentuate the individual characteristics and configurations of each star.

Yes, I think it actually causes plenty of problems that the ancients didn’t always explain some important astrological techniques. Like terms, for example. Most astrologers use Egyptian terms but it’s not clear-cut why the terms are arranged in this order, why each term has such amount of degrees etc. I’ve seen some attempts at explanations but honestly they weren’t that logical if you think about it. But even if we find out what causes such sequence of terms, I don’t think we’ll ever understand why each term in each sign has a number of degrees it has... As with triplicities, the idea of terms makes a lot of sense to me, but its arrangement raises some questions. There are plenty of things in traditional astrology that we have to take as gospel and I’m not a fan of it, even though I think traditional astrology (and astrology in general) is great.

Thanks for pointing out Valens’ views on this! I have looked through Anthologies but didn’t read it entirely. I have no doubts that he was a great astrologer and a lot of his predictions came true as he frequently states in his volumes, but his explanation here is pretty slippery. It feels to me like he was frustrated with this system himself but I can respect his attempt at making sense of it.
 
Re: A new triplicity system?

The terms have an unknown origin. My personal theory is they relate to periods of time within the month. Each sign (roughly) represents 1 month out of the year, and the decans represent both hour markers and sub-periods of 10 days within a month in the egyptian calendar. It is possible the origin of the terms is related to a similar method of time keeping. But this is just a personal view.

The egyptians believed that every period of time had its own protector, a divinity that would watch over it. Thus it wouldn't be surprising if the terms are simply just another sub-division for the month or even the day.

Thanks for sharing your theory! I really like it. I think you could be right about this or at least be very close to the original idea inside of ancient astrologers' heads. :happy:
 
By the way, I’ve noticed a pretty interesting thing in Dorothean triplicities just now. Don’t know if it was obvious or not, but I will share it nonetheless.

Here are Dorothean triplicities so it’s easier to understand what I write:

Element | Day ruler | Night ruler | Participating ruler
Fire | Sun | Jupiter | Saturn
Earth | Venus | Moon | Mars
Air | Saturn | Mercury | Jupiter
Water | Venus | Mars | Moon

So the thing is that for each element there is a combination benefic + malefic which corresponds to the element’s polarity (diurnal or nocturnal, masculine or feminine).

The Sun is very strong in the fire signs of Leo and Aries, so the Sun takes the first place and becomes the day ruler. But next we have to find places for Jupiter and Saturn because both of them are of the day sect. Jupiter has dignity in Sagittarius by being in domicile but Saturn is in a pretty disastrous condition in Aries and Leo, so it has to take the third place, becoming the participating ruler. Jupiter, therefore, becomes the night ruler.

For air signs we could also choose the Sun, but since it is very debilitated in Aquarius and Libra, we can’t use it at all and have to replace it with Mercury, the most neutral planet which also has dignity by being in domicile in Gemini. Saturn is very dignified in Aquarius and Libra, so being the planet that does the best in air signs, we can award it with the best position, making it the day ruler. Jupiter has to go somewhere but because it is pretty weak in air signs, it becomes the participating ruler and Mercury becomes the night ruler.

With feminine signs the situation is a bit more complex but is partially solvable. For earth signs we should fit planets of the nocturnal sect. The Moon is very debilitated in Capricorn, but is exalted in Taurus so we don’t have to go to the extreme and replace it with Mercury. The Moon definitely can’t go to the diurnal sect, so it’s either the night ruler or the participating ruler. Now, why is it necessarily the night ruler then? That’s not the question I can answer, unfortunately... Venus definitely goes as the day ruler (the next of importance for earth signs) because it’s in domicile in Taurus. Mars is not as strong, being exalted in Capricorn, so it goes as the participating ruler. So yes, there is some question as to why the Moon and Mars are in those positions, but Venus as the day ruler is very understandable.

With water signs it’s just as complex. Venus is very debilitated in Scorpio, but is exalted in Pisces so, like with the Moon in earth signs, it gets a pass. Also it has to balance Mars so it would get used anyway. The Moon, as mentioned before, can’t be the day ruler so we have a choice of the night ruler or the participating ruler. The choice of the participating ruler here is, once again, not clear to me. Since we've already put the Moon to the participating rulers squad, now we have to deal with Mars and Venus. Mars is in domicile in Scorpio and Venus is exalted in Pisces, so, with Mars being more prominent in water signs, it gets the more honorable night sect, while Venus takes the day sect, succeeding in importance. So, once again, the choice of Venus for the day sect is understandable, but the Moon-Mars situation raises some questions. Perhaps the ancients didn’t want earth and water triplicities to look the same so they thought there had to be some differences but I don’t understand why it couldn’t be reversed as it would seem more logical because the Moon is stronger in domicile in Cancer than in exaltation in Taurus.

So overall while my system still looks better to me and is more clear (yes, I’m that stubborn I guess), I like where this one is going. For the most part the system of Dorothean triplicities makes much more sense to me now than it did initially. I honestly don’t know if anyone else had already understood and described that before me, but I can say that I came up with the explanation above myself. ;)
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
With feminine signs the situation is a bit more complex but is partially solvable. For earth signs we should fit planets of the nocturnal sect. The Moon is very debilitated in Capricorn, but is exalted in Taurus so we don’t have to go to the extreme and replace it with Mercury. The Moon definitely can’t go to the diurnal sect, so it’s either the night ruler or the participating ruler. Now, why is it necessarily the night ruler then? That’s not the question I can answer, unfortunately... Venus definitely goes as the day ruler (the next of importance for earth signs) because it’s in domicile in Taurus. Mars is not as strong, being exalted in Capricorn, so it goes as the participating ruler. So yes, there is some question as to why the Moon and Mars are in those positions, but Venus as the day ruler is very understandable.

With water signs it’s just as complex. Venus is very debilitated in Scorpio, but is exalted in Pisces so, like with the Moon in earth signs, it gets a pass. Also it has to balance Mars so it would get used anyway. The Moon, as mentioned before, can’t be the day ruler so we have a choice of the night ruler or the participating ruler. The choice of the participating ruler here is, once again, not clear to me. Since we've already put the Moon to the participating rulers squad, now we have to deal with Mars and Venus. Mars is in domicile in Scorpio and Venus is exalted in Pisces, so, with Mars being more prominent in water signs, it gets the more honorable night sect, while Venus takes the day sect, succeeding in importance. So, once again, the choice of Venus for the day sect is understandable, but the Moon-Mars situation raises some questions. Perhaps the ancients didn’t want earth and water triplicities to look the same so they thought there had to be some differences but I don’t understand why it couldn’t be reversed as it would seem more logical because the Moon is stronger in domicile in Cancer than in exaltation in Taurus.

So overall while my system still looks better to me and is more clear (yes, I’m that stubborn I guess), I like where this one is going. For the most part the system of Dorothean triplicities makes much more sense to me now than it did initially. I honestly don’t know if anyone else had already understood and described that before me, but I can say that I came up with the explanation above myself. ;)

With the femenine signs you still have the same problem.

- Venus rules Taurus but is at fall in Virgo. She is exalted in Pisces but at detriment in Scorpio.

- Mars is exalted at Capricorn, but at detriment at Taurus. He rules Scorpio, but is in fall in Cancer.

- Moon is exalted at Taurus but in detriment in Capricorn. She rules Cancer but is in fall in Scorpio.

While the rulership scheme might be a way to deduce the day triplicities (although possibly not correct one), it still has no logical order for the night triplicities. Morin pretty much made his system based on rulerships, that is why he made Jupiter ruler of the water triplicity (rules pisces and is exalted in cancer), and Mars of the fire one (rules Aries). But Morin's assigment changes the concept of a triplicity based on sect, thus it is usually rejected.

PS: ty the mods for moving this thread back to the traditional section.
 
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With the femenine signs you still have the same problem.

- Venus rules Taurus but is at fall in Virgo. She is exalted in Pisces but at detriment in Scorpio.

- Mars is exalted at Capricorn, but at detriment at Taurus. He rules Scorpio, but is in fall in Cancer.

- Moon is exalted at Taurus but in detriment in Capricorn. She rules Cancer but is in fall in Scorpio.

While the rulership scheme might be a way to deduce the day triplicities (although possibly not correct one), it still has no logical order for the night triplicities. Morin pretty much made his system based on rulerships, that is why he made Jupiter ruler of the water triplicity (rules pisces and is exalted in cancer), and Mars of the fire one (rules Aries). But Morin's assigment changes the concept of a triplicity based on sect, thus it is usually rejected.

I understand detriments/falls here, but they're not really relevant in my approach. We only look at dignities. As I said, I could only understand why Venus ruled the day sect in both cases, but not the Moon and Mars. I understand why they both should be included though. The basis of my explanation is still the sect, unlike in Morin's approach. Morin dismisses the sect while I find use in it. Overall, I'm not regarding this idea as a breakthrough or a revolutionary discovery, but with this approach I can explain why Venus is in the day sect, which is something.
 
Alright, I've found some inconsistencies in my explanation. So now I have a new idea of a triplicity system! :lol: I just keep on giving!

Element | Day ruler | Night ruler | Participating ruler
Fire | Sun | Jupiter | Saturn
Earth | Mars | Venus | Moon
Air | Saturn | Mercury | Jupiter
Water | Mars | Moon | Venus

As anticipated, it's based on essential dignities. Everything's clear with fire and air signs now, so no comments here. For earth: Venus in domicile in Taurus (most dignified among its night-sect earth comrades), so it gets the night sect. Then Mars, exalted in Capricorn, as the day ruler. Not Moon!!! because it can't be in the day sect. So the Moon gets thrown out to the participating rulers. For water: Moon in domicile in Cancer and Mars in domicile in Scorpio, but because the Moon can't be in the day sect, it's in the night sect, while Mars becomes the day ruler. Venus has nothing to do but to retreat to the participating rulers squad.

How about that.

P.S. I'm not obsessed with triplicities, I just have way too many questions and ideas. :w00t: So yeah, in case anyone wonders, I'm alright.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Alright, I've found some inconsistencies in my explanation. So now I have a new idea of a triplicity system! :lol: I just keep on giving!

Element | Day ruler | Night ruler | Participating ruler
Fire | Sun | Jupiter | Saturn
Earth | Mars | Venus | Moon
Air | Saturn | Mercury | Jupiter
Water | Mars | Moon | Venus

As anticipated, it's based on essential dignities. Everything's clear with fire and air signs now, so no comments here. For earth: Venus in domicile in Taurus (most dignified among its night-sect earth comrades), so it gets the night sect. Then Mars, exalted in Capricorn, as the day ruler. Not Moon!!! because it can't be in the day sect. So the Moon gets thrown out to the participating rulers. For water: Moon in domicile in Cancer and Mars in domicile in Scorpio, but because the Moon can't be in the day sect, it's in the night sect, while Mars becomes the day ruler. Venus has nothing to do but to retreat to the participating rulers squad.

How about that.

P.S. I'm not obsessed with triplicities, I just have way too many questions and ideas. :w00t: So yeah, in case anyone wonders, I'm alright.

But you are again mixing day/night sect with day/night rulerships. Also, there is no sensible reason as to why this would work better :unsure: :tongue:
 
But you are again mixing day/night sect with day/night rulerships. Also, there is no sensible reason as to why this would work better :unsure: :tongue:

Hi again, Dirius. :happy: I had troubles with the Internet so I couldn't reply. Funny thing is that these troubles began just as I was replying on this thread. :w00t: Well, I guess it's a clear sign that I should be over with this topic.

Yeah, I guess I wasn't correct in equating the terms "day sect" and "day ruler" in my post because they are different, but you can replace the term "sect" with the word "ruler" in my previous post so it seems intelligible.

So all in all, I guess I'll be sticking with my original system for now (with new participating rulers). I'll try to see if it works or not. If it doesn't, then I'll be back at Dorothean triplicities again. :smile: Thanks for your useful replies, I really appreciate it.
 

Humanitarian

Well-known member
Re: A new triplicity system?

Morin was a scholar, and tried to analyse astrology from a scientific perspective, so he built the triplicity scheme based on the observation of the planetary qualities/gender/attributes/etc. That is why, for example, he assigns Mars to the fire rulership, a hot/dry planet that rules a fire sign, as ruler of Fire signs seemed more logical to him.

However the regular triplicities are based on sect, and its quite simple:

Day sect planets: Sun, Jupiter, Saturn.
Night sect planets: Moon, Venus, Mars.

Day sect planets rule the day triplicities (masculine): Fire and Air
Night sect planets rule the night triplicities (feminine): Earth and Water

The only sort of unclear assigment is Mercury, whose sect usually varies, although is not uncommon for authors to treat him as the emmisary of the Sun and thus belonging to the Day sect.

The problem with Morin is that he commits the sin of simplifying astrology into a power/debility analysis. If you don't think of triplicities just as essential dignity (the "+3" in the dreaded almuten tables), the usefulness of the triplicity scheme becomes more evident. The triplicity scheme is better understood when applied to a practical technique that does not directly revolve around essential dignity. Most of these are found in hellenistic texts. Many triangle techniques are based on the state of the triplicity rulers, which don't directly correlate to the usual ways of checking how strong a planet really is. To truly understand the essential dignity table, the best is to dismiss the power structure established in Bonatti's table (+5, +4, +3, etc.), which is fine for Horary and some birth chart techniques, but don't exactly represent what essential dignity truly is.

I personally enjoyed Astrologia Gallica, I don't particularly agree with it, buts its a good read. Although, I recommend it as a theoreticl lesson in the history of astrology only. Morinus tried to re-invent astrology in a more scientific manner and rejected a lot of astrological content, such as Horary.
You need to check the natal Mercury if it's an evening star Mercury or a morning star Mercury, because it can determine Mercury's sect in your natal chart and then determine it as an in sect planet or an out of sect planet
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
You need to check the natal Mercury if it's an evening star Mercury or a mornng star Mercury, because it can determine Mercury's sect in your natal chart and then determine it as an in sect planet or an out of sect planet
sect-of-mercury.png


morning-star-vs-evening-star-01.jpg
 

DC80

Well-known member
Re: A new triplicity system?

Morin was a scholar, and tried to analyse astrology from a scientific perspective, so he built the triplicity scheme based on the observation of the planetary qualities/gender/attributes/etc. That is why, for example, he assigns Mars to the fire rulership, a hot/dry planet that rules a fire sign, as ruler of Fire signs seemed more logical to him.
Morin was an idiot.
The only sort of unclear assigment is Mercury, whose sect usually varies, although is not uncommon for authors to treat him as the emmisary of the Sun and thus belonging to the Day sect.
That's derived from Thema Mundi.

The best most clear explanation of Thema Mundi I believe if Firmi who says:

They argued, however, that the planet of Mercury is common in the above-mentioned chart because it is not in any aspect to the Sun or Moon, nor is it related to the Sun or Moon in any way...

Gemini Mercury is in aversion to Moon and Virgo Mercury is in aversion to Sun.

You can contrast that with Taurus Venus sextile Moon square Sun or Libra Venus sextile Sun square Moon. Mercury does sextile one luminary but is simultaneously in aversion to the other luminary.

The problem with Morin is that he commits the sin of simplifying astrology into a power/debility analysis.
Which is exactly what the Arabs/Persians did.
To truly understand the essential dignity table, the best is to dismiss the power structure established in Bonatti's table (+5, +4, +3, etc.), which is fine for Horary and some birth chart techniques, but don't exactly represent what essential dignity truly is.
Exactly. They created a lot of busy work which tells you nothing.
I personally enjoyed Astrologia Gallica, I don't particularly agree with it, buts its a good read. Although, I recommend it as a theoreticl lesson in the history of astrology only. Morinus tried to re-invent astrology in a more scientific manner and rejected a lot of astrological content, such as Horary.
His religious views clouded his commentary.
 
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