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  #1  
Unread 07-28-2020, 01:46 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

I don't think it's necessary. For the last 32 Presidential Elections, the results of the Electoral College vote, and the national Popular vote, yielded the same result in all but ONE--the 2016 Election.

This gave the false impression that the Electoral College is necessary to prevent the more populated States from overwhelming the less populated States in choosing the President. But, given the 1/31 times this has occurred, that's clearly not the case.

The explanation for the one time it did occur in 128 years can be identified as the illegal foreign, mostly Russian, interference with the 2016 Election. So, that was an aberration, not an endemic situation. Steps have been taken to prevent foreign interference from happening again, so we should expect the Electoral and Popular vote results to match up as usual in 2020, based on the long historical record.


Last edited by david starling; 07-28-2020 at 01:49 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 07-28-2020, 02:04 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

For a very factual, detailed account of the history of the Electoral and Popular vote results since the beginning of our Presidential elections, here's the link:

https://latimes.com/nation/la-na-pol...110-story.html
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  #3  
Unread 07-28-2020, 02:51 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Interesting that in 2004, John Kerry came close to squeaking out a win in the Electoral College vote, while losing the Popular-vote by a wide margin. But, in the end, the results matched up, as usual.

If Kerry had managed to win, it would have been Republicans calling for an end to the Electoral College!
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  #4  
Unread 07-28-2020, 02:57 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

One thing you gotta say for the president - that Sun-Uranus does make him 'unique' in that he creates history in different ways.
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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I don't think it's necessary. For the last 32 Presidential Elections, the results of the Electoral College vote, and the national Popular vote, yielded the same result in all but ONE--the 2016 Election.

This gave the false impression that the Electoral College is necessary to prevent the more populated States from overwhelming the less populated States in choosing the President. But, given the 1/31 times this has occurred, that's clearly not the case.

The explanation for the one time it did occur in 128 years can be identified as the illegal foreign, mostly Russian, interference with the 2016 Election. So, that was an aberration, not an endemic situation. Steps have been taken to prevent foreign interference from happening again, so we should expect the Electoral and Popular vote results to match up as usual in 2020, based on the long historical record.
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  #5  
Unread 07-28-2020, 03:20 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
One thing you gotta say for the president - that Sun-Uranus does make him 'unique' in that he creates history in different ways.
Well, it hasn't been proven that Trump asked for the illegal foreign interference with the 2016 Election that gave him the win, so he can't fairly be said to have created history in that regard.

I'd say his Moon in Sagittarius does give him a great deal of good luck, though. For example, Trump didn't create the Black Lives Matter movement, but the violence now associated with it is certainly working to his advantage.
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  #6  
Unread 07-28-2020, 03:31 AM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
One thing you gotta say for the president - that Sun-Uranus does make him 'unique' in that he creates history in different ways.
On second thought, that Sun/NN/Ura conjunction in Gemini does give him catalytic ability, which can alter history. It also explains his erratic personality.
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  #7  
Unread 07-28-2020, 06:27 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

I'm saying "it's not necessary" in two ways:

The Electoral College system isn't necessary to protect the less populated States from being overwhelmed by the more populated States when it comes to electing the President. There's ample proof of that, over the last 128 years.

And, since it doesn't affect the outcome of the Election--minus illegal, outside interference, which is preventable--it's also not necessary to eliminate the Electoral College system, on a practical basis.

Last edited by david starling; 07-28-2020 at 06:32 AM.
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  #8  
Unread 07-28-2020, 07:25 AM
chiamaria chiamaria is offline
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

5 out of 45 presidents became presidents in this way, and 5 out of a total of 58 elections, so that's a sizable enough probability to keep it in. Whether or not you think they make good presidents is a whole other question. For instance George W Bush is probably one of the worst presidents to ever hold office because it was thanks to his family and others in on the conspiracy that the Sept 11 attacks were orchestrated. But then I also question presidents who DID win the Popular vote as well, such as Obama and Clinton. So it won't yield perfect outcomes either way. But at the end of the day it isn't all about you or me and what we like, so let's be adults about this.
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  #9  
Unread 07-28-2020, 08:05 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Originally Posted by chiamaria View Post
5 out of 45 presidents became presidents in this way, and 5 out of a total of 58 elections, so that's a sizable enough probability to keep it in. Whether or not you think they make good presidents is a whole other question. For instance George W Bush is probably one of the worst presidents to ever hold office because it was thanks to his family and others in on the conspiracy that the Sept 11 attacks were orchestrated. But then I also question presidents who DID win the Popular vote as well, such as Obama and Clinton. So it won't yield perfect outcomes either way. But at the end of the day it isn't all about you or me and what we like, so let's be adults about this.
Are you counting Bush/Gore? When the final Florida vote-count was completed, it turned out that Bush had lost both the Electoral and the Popular. So, they matched, even though the Republican-dominated Supreme Court refused to acknowledge it.

Chiamaria, I just may be in agreement with you, concerning the value of the Electoral College system, for this reason: In 2004, John Kerry was only 60,000 votes short of winning the Popular-vote in Ohio. If he had won in Ohio, he would have won the Electoral College vote by a slim margin. Bush had a huge plurality in the national Popular-vote, but Kerry did at least come close to becoming President and Commander-in-Chief. Of course, the damage was already done, but Kerry just might have handled the aftermath far better.

Last edited by david starling; 07-28-2020 at 08:07 AM.
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  #10  
Unread 07-28-2020, 08:32 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Remember, in the last 128 years, only ONE President was elected in the Electoral College even though he lost the Popular vote. And, that one Election, in 2016, was an aberration, due to illegal foreign interference which intentionally targeted the Electoral College system. For that reason, I personally exclude it from the data set, and say that not even ONE truly legitimate Presidential election since 1888 has had a mismatch between the Electoral College and Popular votes.

I especially want to dispel the myth that the less populated States need the Electoral College system to protect them from being overwhelmed by the more populated States when it comes to electing the President. John Kerry, for example, was the choice of the more populated States, which lost the national Popular-vote but were nearly saved by the Electoral College vote.

Last edited by david starling; 07-28-2020 at 08:44 AM.
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  #11  
Unread 07-28-2020, 08:40 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Here's something: Were ANY of the Presidential elections truly legitimate before 1920? That's when women gained the right to vote.

Last edited by david starling; 07-28-2020 at 08:42 AM.
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  #12  
Unread 07-28-2020, 08:57 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Here's another one: Were ANY of the Presidential elections truly legitimate until after the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965? Minorities, especially the black vote so important in recent Elections, was deliberately suppressed until 1968.
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  #13  
Unread 07-28-2020, 09:43 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Does it really make a diference david?

Leaving personal politics aside, the democrats aren't in a strong position to win this year.

They have a weak candidate who people see as the "anti-trump" vote, rather than a leader figure on its own. The covid19 lockdowns, the BLM protests, the fake impeachment, the mass media fake news, etc., all backfired on democrats.

Lot of people switching sides, bernie bros not happy with Biden, etc.

It doesn't really look like Biden can win, with or without the electoral college.

Had bernie been the runner, would have been a different story. People did see Bernie as a leader.
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  #14  
Unread 07-28-2020, 09:50 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Does it really make a diference david?

Leaving personal politics aside, the democrats aren't in a strong position to win this year.

They have a weak candidate who people see as the "anti-trump" vote, rather than a leader figure on its own. The covid19 lockdowns, the BLM protests, the fake impeachment, the mass media fake news, etc., all backfired on democrats.

Lot of people switching sides, bernie bros not happy with Biden, etc.

It doesn't really look like Biden can win, with or without the electoral college.

Had bernie been the runner, would have been a different story. People did see Bernie as a leader.
Yeah, but in the swing-States, being labeled a "Commie" is a big deal.

Hey, what's this about Bush Jr. possibly endorsing Biden? Word is, Trump thinks it would work in his favor.

Isn't Argentina on lockdown, wearing masks, and keeping 6 feet apart?
Are you unconvinced that's all necessary?
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  #15  
Unread 07-28-2020, 10:24 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Yeah, but in the swing-States, being labeled a "Commie" is a big deal.

Hey, what's this about Bush Jr. possibly endorsing Biden? Word is, Trump thinks it would work in his favor.

Isn't Argentina on lockdown, wearing masks, and keeping 6 feet apart?
Are you unconvinced that's all necessary?
Whether its necessary or not doesn't really matter, a lot of people are not going to like the lockdowns.

Republicans were more flexible.... while democrats harsher. Granted, the biggest cities are in Blue states so there may be a reason. But the political cost from the lockdowns will be larger and more noticeable for democrats.

Let me clarify that this is just my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong on this - but the general sentiment on the internet would suggest democrats are losing a lot of support.
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Last edited by Dirius; 07-28-2020 at 10:28 AM.
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  #16  
Unread 07-28-2020, 10:47 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Still a long way to go! October's really the bellwether month this year.
Polls now are almost all Biden, except for Ohio (Trump+1) in the swing-States.

I think there may be some "hype burnout", where people just want things to calm down. Too much hell-raising and hoopla for many.
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  #17  
Unread 07-28-2020, 11:01 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Wait until Biden chooses his VP! THAT will be interesting.
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  #18  
Unread 07-28-2020, 11:15 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Here's a unique scenario: Biden picks a really focused, articulate VP with some good Swing-State appeal. Then, when it's time for the debates, he suddenly comes down with a mild, non-life-threatening case of the virus, and she has to stand in for him. Could happen!
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  #19  
Unread 07-28-2020, 11:49 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/c...context=honors
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  #20  
Unread 07-28-2020, 01:27 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Well, if I get a magnifying glass made for reading small print, I'll be able to read it.
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  #21  
Unread 07-28-2020, 03:21 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

The winner-take-all Electoral College system is so in tune with the Popular-vote of "We, the People", I see no reason to change it. Thomas Jefferson won the Presidency under this system, after having lost the previous election using a Congressional Districting system that is heavily subject to gerrymandering.

Democrats are frantically attempting to alter or eliminate the current Electoral College system because they haven't realized:

1) Al Gore DID WIN both the Electoral AND the Popular votes in the 2000 Election, but the Republican-dominated Supreme Court refused to accept that result, with the excuse that the final vote-count in Florida "took too long".

2) The 2016 Election was an aberration, not typical of the 128 year history of the matching Electoral and Popular vote-results. It was skewed, due to illegal foreign interference which specifically targeted the Electoral College system itself, and it's highly doubtful that such interference will happen again.
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  #22  
Unread 07-28-2020, 03:36 PM
blackbery blackbery is offline
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

No, it happened 4 times prior to 2016.


Prior to the 2016 election, there were four times in US history when a candidate won the presidency despite losing the popular vote: 1824 (John Quincy Adams over Andrew Jackson), 1876 (Rutherford B. Hayes over Samuel Tilden), 1888 (Benjamin Harrison over Grover Cleveland), and 2000 (George W. Bush over Al Gore).


There were very good reasons why the electoral college was used to pick the President. I think the most important one ensuring representation from all parts of the country and not the densely populated ones. The Founding Fathers did not want the majority to rule while drowning out the voices of the minority.

In order for any candidate to win the Presidency, they must win electoral votes from rural areas which would be totally ignored if they were picked by popular vote. There would be no need for these people like farmers to be heard for the Presidency would be only decided in high populated city areas. That is not democratic and the Founding Fathers wanted every person's vote to count, not just the majority.

Hamilton stated that the Electoral College was not perfect but the perfect system for fairness in electing a President. The fact that it's very rare for the President to not win both the electoral college and the popular vote proves it's working. Only five times have they not been in agreement.


The Founding Fathers created the Electoral College as a compromise between electing the president via a vote in Congress only or via a popular vote only. The Electoral College comprises 538 electors; each state is allowed one elector for each Representative and Senator (DC is allowed 3 electors as established by the Twenty-Third Amendment).















Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I don't think it's necessary. For the last 32 Presidential Elections, the results of the Electoral College vote, and the national Popular vote, yielded the same result in all but ONE--the 2016 Election.

This gave the false impression that the Electoral College is necessary to prevent the more populated States from overwhelming the less populated States in choosing the President. But, given the 1/31 times this has occurred, that's clearly not the case.

The explanation for the one time it did occur in 128 years can be identified as the illegal foreign, mostly Russian, interference with the 2016 Election. So, that was an aberration, not an endemic situation. Steps have been taken to prevent foreign interference from happening again, so we should expect the Electoral and Popular vote results to match up as usual in 2020, based on the long historical record.
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  #23  
Unread 07-28-2020, 03:41 PM
blackbery blackbery is offline
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?


Last edited by blackbery; 07-28-2020 at 04:11 PM.
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  #24  
Unread 07-28-2020, 03:54 PM
blackbery blackbery is offline
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

That's not true as I posted. The Electoral College will never be eliminated because it's the system that enshrines that every vote counts whether you live in rural Iowa or New York. It enables the two party system to keep going.
If one party dominated for instance, the party in power would ensure it keeps their voters happy in the highly populated cities and the rest of the voters would be totally ignored. No money for their communities for the Party in power would only care about keeping their voters happy in the big cities. The United States is a FEDERAL REPUBLIC. This is the most important reason to keep the Electoral College.




It helps preserve our Constitutional system



Speak to a few historians and Constitutional lawyers David and listen to their argument in why the electoral college should never be abolished and why it never will be. I was really upset when Gore lost the electoral college even though he won the popular vote.
I chose to understand more after the Trump win and HC won the popular vote and thought it was very unfair. I am not a historian or a lawyer and sought out a greater understanding of the voting system. I listened to what they had to say and eventually, I knew what they were speaking of was the truth and that the electoral college must remain. I also read a lot on the subject to understand it better and you can do the same if you wish to acquire more knowledge.






Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Remember, in the last 128 years, only ONE President was elected in the Electoral College even though he lost the Popular vote. And, that one Election, in 2016, was an aberration, due to illegal foreign interference which intentionally targeted the Electoral College system. For that reason, I personally exclude it from the data set, and say that not even ONE truly legitimate Presidential election since 1888 has had a mismatch between the Electoral College and Popular votes.

I especially want to dispel the myth that the less populated States need the Electoral College system to protect them from being overwhelmed by the more populated States when it comes to electing the President. John Kerry, for example, was the choice of the more populated States, which lost the national Popular-vote but were nearly saved by the Electoral College vote.

Last edited by blackbery; 07-28-2020 at 04:32 PM.
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  #25  
Unread 07-28-2020, 04:01 PM
blackbery blackbery is offline
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

This is correct and the most fundamental reason for the Electoral College to remain.

If the Electoral College is abandoned, the entire American constitutional system is abandoned.





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