Is the heart of astrology Symbolism or Mathematics?

Vinyasa said:

Exactly, this is the expression of the collective consciousness of a mass. Look at your previous post and at your question:



With the examples of Hitler and Walesa, I answered you exactly at the underlined question at hand: how an individual can channel the collected consciousness of a mass. The collective consciousness of a mass is another concept than the collective unconscious, don't you think?

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As far as I know CU has to do with what cultures take with them from the past, that which becomes part of everyones DNA. The situation as you present it is present tense. CU is theory, therefor open to interpertation. There is no absolute.

Cosmiccradle said:

As far as I know CU has to do with what cultures take with them from the past, that which becomes part of everyones DNA. The situation as you present it is present tense.

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Sorry, I find this thread utterly confusing and I cannot discern anymore where exactly it is leading.

Here you may find a definition of the collective unconscious, and here a definition of the collective consciousness. They are two different concepts coming from two different sciences, one from psychology the other from sociology.

Concerning the initial topic, the use of symbolic systems, I would like to recommend to anyone interested in, the work of the anthropologist Claude Lévi-Strauss.

And to return to the basic question, whether symbolism or mathematics lie in the heart of astrology, I would like to summarise my thesis by saying: 'None: astrology, mathematics, music, language, yoga, ritualistic dance, (...), are all symbolic systems of representation and alternative paths on the request for the 'Holy Grail'* of humanity: for the One Truth underlying it all.'

*'Holy Grail' referred here as seen symbolically by modern psychology and not in the strict Christian perception - just to avoid further confusion.

Vinyasa

I'm not a moderator.. but we have definately lost touch of the thread...

I should not have said collective... erase it from the memory.. i'll say that it's a human instinct instead, we think in pictures, everything we ever thought is unreal, pure imagination, call anything you want it in fact. There is a section in philosophy about it; how you can't see eveything at once and just because you think you see a table, it doesn't mean it's a table, it's really just your mind playing tricks, because it could just as well be a construction of rectangles.... or is it? To be honest it's been ages since i read real philosophy so don't listen to me.

Sagmoon said:

I'm not a moderator.. but we have definately lost touch of the thread...

I should not have said collective... erase it from the memory.. i'll say that it's a human instinct instead, we think in pictures, everything we ever thought is unreal, pure imagination, call anything you want it in fact. There is a section in philosophy about it; how you can't see eveything at once and just because you think you see a table, it doesn't mean it's a table, it's really just your mind playing tricks, because it could just as well be a construction of rectangles.... or is it? To be honest it's beed ages since i read real philosophy so don't listen to me.

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Impossible, it has now become part of the collective.

Vinyasa said:

Sorry, I find this thread utterly confusing and I cannot discern anymore where exactly it is leading.

Here you may find a definition of the collective unconscious, and here a definition of the collective consciousness. They are two different concepts coming from two different sciences, one from psychology the other from sociology.

Concerning the initial topic, the use of symbolic systems, I would like to recommend to anyone interested in, the work of the anthropologist Claude Lévi-Strauss.

And to return to the basic question, whether symbolism or mathematics lie in the heart of astrology, I would like to summarise my thesis by saying: 'None: astrology, mathematics, music, language, yoga, ritualistic dance, (...), are all symbolic systems of representation and alternative paths on the request for the 'Holy Grail'* of humanity: for the One Truth underlying it all.'

*'Holy Grail' referred here as seen symbolically by modern psychology and not in the strict Christian perception - just to avoid further confusion.

Vinyasa

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Sorry, I find this thread utterly confusing and I cannot discern anymore where exactly it is leading.

I'll second that. But in reaction to your post above are you not creating the situation again by introducing anthropolgy, good lord, I've got collective concious and unconcious, anthropology, ESP and clairvoyance running through my threads. No wonder my heads spinning.

Cosmiccradle said:

Impossible, it has now become part of the collective.

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aah so that's what it means .

Cosmiccradle said:

Sorry, I find this thread utterly confusing and I cannot discern anymore where exactly it is leading.

I'll second that. But in reaction to your post above are you not creating the situation again by introducing anthropolgy, good lord, I've got collective concious and unconcious, anthropology, ESP and clairvoyance running through my threads. No wonder my heads spinning.

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Well, the truth is you cannot delve into philosophical issues such as symbolism and mathematics and what lies underneath astrology, without at least a common agreement on the terminology employed.

Actually, I had already introduced the anthropologist - structuralist Lévi-Strauss on post nr.2 of this thread, it is a pity no-one seemed to have noticed him...

piercethevale said:

...let me just say this...a Saturn Neptune conj. allows me a great boost in the practice of meditation...I might say 'I can meditate like a Mahatma Fakir"

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Was the conjunction in the 9th or 12th or Sag. or Pis. I would take your point, but the 11th and Libra? The conjuction does point somewhat towards religion, but more in a conservative sense, whereby things like ESP and clairvoyance are shunned and considered dogmas. Naturally I stand corrected if the position falls under a different interpertation in the Sabian astrology.

Vinyasa said:

Well, the truth is you cannot delve into philosophical issues such as symbolism and mathematics and what lies underneath astrology, without at least a common agreement on the terminology employed.

Actually, I had already introduced the anthropologist - structuralist Lévi-Strauss on post nr.2 of this thread, it is a pity no-one seemed to have noticed him...

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Yes you did. I think starting a new thread, whereby introductions to other branches, as psychology and anthropoly, to what Jung is for psychology, and Lévi-Strauss for anthropolgy and their connections to astrology would certainly be useful.

piercethevale said:

..I propose that all knowledge, and not only science which includes mathematics, will eventually be proven to find their application and root source in the Mother of all Sciences, i.e. Astrology.

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That's right. In fact if you look at any ancient civilisation, you'll see that most of them (if not all..?) had started with some sort of planet worshiping. Be it Sun the God or a goddest the moon. It's all astrology really. The night lights have beaconed us for a long time, but somewhere along the way we lost our truck...

Good point.

Sagmoon said:

That's right. In fact if you look at any ancient civilisation, you'll see that most of them (if not all..?) had started with some sort of planet worshiping. Be it Sun the God or a goddest the moon. It's all astrology really. The night lights have beaconed us for a long time, but somewhere along the way we lost our truck...

Good point.

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That was partly ignorance. The only thing that I will accept is that we stood closer to nature and understood it better, we also stood closer to God and because of this were more spiritual and could see and do things that we nolonger can.

Cosmiccradle said:

That was partly ignorance. The only thing that I will accept is that we stood closer to nature and understood it better, we also stood closer to God and because of this were more spiritual and could see and do things that we nolonger can.

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Why is it partly ignorance? Could you specify which part please.? lol

People first looked at the sky, for astrological reasons. That's how astronomy was born, along came maths and physics...etc

The_Sundance_Kid said:

why is an opposition tough or tense? What is it about a trine, the quality of the number 3 that is harmonious, compared to the number 4? Why 12 signs? The meaning of aspects and harmonics is determined in large part by the symbolism given to numbers. So here I would say the mathematics are a type of symbolism.

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I have to point out something here. The meaning of the aspects, at least historically, were not determined by number symbolism. They came from the Thema Mundi. Now, we could argue that the Thema Mundi was created out of number symbolism along with a lot of other things, but we can't prove all that. All we know is the in the Thema Mundi, Jupiter is 120 degrees away from the Sun, so that any planets 120 degrees away from each other have the nature of Jupiter joining them, or, positive, harmonious, beneficial energy.

CC said:

Mathematics are universal, symbolism is individual.

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I still hold that numbers and equations are symbolism. But they are a different kind of symbolism than astrology. Math is a descriptive symbolism, describing what we see in a different way, making it easier for us to think about the amount of what we see in very great and very small amounts. But astrology is a "self-contained" symbolism. We have planets, signs, and houses, and the symbolism comes from there. We do not apply astrological symbolism on other things like tea leaves or lines in the hand. The symbolism of astrology describes itself, whereas the symbolism of math exists wholly to describe everything else, because math doesn't exist without using it to give meaning to something. Astrology as symbolism does exist because the planets are all still there no matter if we give them meaning or not. The fact that non-descriptive symbolism is highly individual does not mean that descriptive symbolism is not symbolism at all just because it is universal.

Also, the symbolism of astrology, historically, did not change that much until the 20th century. The planets, signs, and houses still have the same meanings, no matter if people want to create new ones, that doesn't mean that the meanings are changed. Only for those who choose to accept it.

Morin's method of determination is relevant to mention here too, because he uses a very logical process to determine the symbolism of each chart individually. You can find a link in my other thread with that name.

PTV said:

...there is symbolism in Mathematics [Esoterically]

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But that is beside the point. There is symbolism in everything, esoterically.

Vinyasa said:

And isn't - after all - mathematics a form of symbolism too? the study of symbolically quantifying and numerically depicting matter?

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Yes.

waybread said:

Numbers as we use them are symbols. I mean, show me "seven". It can't be done. We could write the number 7 [or VII or ///// // or "sieben" or "sept"] or look at 7 of some object like 7 rocks. But "seven" exists in the abstract.

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Yes. Saturn, though, exists in reality, and I can show you it and give it meaning. As soon as I give it meaning it becomes a symbol, but I can take away that meaning and Saturn still exists...

planet worshiping.

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That I believe is what CC was referring to. The ancients did not understand what those big things moving around in the sky were, so they were fearful, and thus worshiped them.

Sagmoon said:

Why is it partly ignorance? Could you specify which part please.? lol

People first looked at the sky, for astrological reasons. That's how astronomy was born, along came maths and physics...etc

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Offering a virgin heart to the Sun. Just like today some Turkish father burying his daughter alive for the sake of honour born out of religion. That type of ignorance.

eternalautumn said:

That I believe is what CC was referring to. The ancients did not understand what those big things moving around in the sky were, so they were fearful, and thus worshiped them.

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Yes, but i believe it was not done just out of fear. They have understood that the planets have a certain higher power (this is not an exact terminology) and therefore associated themselves with it. We are the children of god/s, right. The ancients knew the moon had an affect on the tides, for example. Perhaps it's how astrology was born..?

Cosmiccradle said:

Offering a virgin heart to the Sun. Just like today some Turkish father burying his daughter alive for the sake of honour born out of religion. That type of ignorance.

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I didn't mean to imply anything like that...? If we look at the beginning, of course, you'll see lots of imperfections. A man used to drag a woman by that hair to his cave, or rather. It's how we started, but men still have a certain dominance over us...

I think if you explore history people have a habit of worshipping/deifying/fearing things they don't understand. In ancient times there were no scientific explanations of natural disasters, heavenly phenomena, etc., so people worshipped/deifyed/feared them, and the things they thought caused them. It wasn't until later that people began to "associate" themselves with these things. Fear came first.

eternalautumn said:

I think if you explore history people have a habit of worshipping/deifying/fearing things they don't understand. In ancient times there were no scientific explanations of natural disasters, heavenly phenomena, etc., so people worshipped/deifyed/feared them, and the things they thought caused them. It wasn't until later that people began to "associate" themselves with these things. Fear came first.

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Spot on EA, welcome back. Now no more leaving, ye hear!

Cosmiccradle said:

"There is no objective reason to come up with 12 signs and 12 houses."

I believe that saying "come up with" covers what I mean, we choose what things mean, but that does not mean it is so.

We choose 12 signs, but there are 13, we choose symbolism, but not mathematics, that is fixed. Symbolism changes over time, and changes with each individual.

Symbolism from the bible has created different branches of religion and how they view the same religion. That God created the world in 7 days remains the same.

Or do I misunderstand your post?

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Not sure, as we can hook up stars to make constellations any way we want. Other cultures have done so. We could devise as many or as few zodiacal constellations as we wish. I am not sure what you mean by your symbolism and the Bible statements. I don't think the Unitarians take the 6 days of creation [God rested on the 7th day] literally. It's more poetic.

Some aspects of mathematics appear fixed, but others that seem fixed are not. For example, we use a base-10 [probably do to counting on fingers] but anthropologists discovered some other cultures that use a different base for their arithmetic.

I am mostly a cultural relativist.