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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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Unread 08-30-2011, 01:13 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Two things; one, just to learn a bit more, for those of us using systems with a separate MC point and 10th house, does the MC point take the lead? Does the 10th house ruler play 'second fiddle'? Are they to be considered equal? I'd really like to dig deep into that now. Also, has anyone ever come across some material about the who/how details of the conventions which 'decided' the outer planets? I'd really like to see the discussions and debates for that...I'm not prepared to take their significations without investigating...now if I find their ideas reasonable, I think I'd be able to accommodate the outers with the traditional and ancient methods I've been researching.

For me, the MC point is in the 9th of Pisces and Aries rules the 10th. I could never see just one of these as my MC, and both together makes perfect sense. I definitely like to lead, I aim for it, I've accomplished much in those positions already, but I do not like to do so at the expense of others. I'm always thinking about 'the tide raises more than one boat' and if I'm present when someone/animal is being treated badly, it's like provoking a dragon with a stick.

Some excellent ideas and debates being examined in here, another quality thread for anyone interested in this line of thought, and others will find it in the future.


Last edited by byjove; 08-30-2011 at 01:17 PM.
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Unread 08-30-2011, 02:18 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Two things; one, just to learn a bit more, for those of us using systems with a separate MC point and 10th house, does the MC point take the lead? Does the 10th house ruler play 'second fiddle'?[personal choice i would say, MC to me will always take precendnet though and 10th cusp adds extra information] Are they to be considered equal?[no] I'd really like to dig deep into that now. Also, has anyone ever come across some material about the who/how details of the conventions which 'decided' the outer planets? I'd really like to see the discussions and debates for that...I'm not prepared to take their significations without investigating...now if I find their ideas reasonable, I think I'd be able to accommodate the outers with the traditional and ancient methods I've been researching. [there is an ongoing thread discussing 'outers' here]
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=39021

For me, the MC point is in the 9th of Pisces and Aries rules the 10th. I could never see just one of these as my MC, and both together makes perfect sense. I definitely like to lead, I aim for it, I've accomplished much in those positions already, but I do not like to do so at the expense of others. I'm always thinking about 'the tide raises more than one boat' and if I'm present when someone/animal is being treated badly, it's like provoking a dragon with a stick.

Some excellent ideas and debates being examined in here, another quality thread for anyone interested in this line of thought, and others will find it in the future.
that was lovely description of your Pisces MC and aries 10th house cusp ruler. So how easy it was, so come back over to the light pleaseeeee


http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J...0house&f=false
this book discusses MC and 10th cusp as being more like vertex, a sensitive point...

The MC in Whole Sign & Equal House Systems
Quote:
In the whole sign and equal house systems the MC (Midheaven), the highest point in the chart, does not act as the cusp or starting point of the 10th house. Instead the MC moves around the top half of the chart. The MC retains its commonly agreed significations, but it doesn't act as the starting point of the 10th house, therefore in Equal house it adds extra definition and meaning to MC and the cusps involved, but always MC is same in interpretations as other house systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_(...y)#Equal_House
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Unread 08-30-2011, 02:33 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

“The simplest approaches, the equal-house and whole-sign methods, merely require knowledge of the ascendant or ascending sign, and an equal division throughout the rest of the zodiac eliminates the need for any complicated calculations
Yet recent research into classical astrology has created a renewed interest in these simple techniques from a more scholarly perspective. The point of strength is that, regardless of the originating theory behind house division, in practice at least, classical astrologers tended to tie the houses to the signs, apparently concurring with Pelletier, who wrote in defence of the equal house method”
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html

http://www.adze.com/Classroom/houses.html#HOUSES

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...d.php?p=152849
http://members.cox.net/qainfo/qahell.html

I'm not into the history like a few members here and very little is explained about the useage of 10th house and MC... unfortunately. If you find something perhaps you could enlighten us?
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Unread 08-30-2011, 06:20 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by MSO View Post
I don't see what the big deal is with the MC being in the 9th or 11th House. It's just a point like any of the other points. My MC is in Aries but my 10th House is Taurus. I like to be the best at whatever Taurusey things I get myself into. What's so hard about that interpretation?
I guess it depends upon how you interpret the MC. Given the whole sign and equal house systems, we should detach it from the 10th house cusp, but then how would these two points differ in interpretation?

From a geocentric perspective, the medium coeli is the "center of the heavens"-- the midheaven-- the highest point in the sky along the ecliptic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when one constructs a horoscope by hand (as the traditional astrologers did) the MC is the first point to be calculated--the most visible one, in a metaphorical sense. I think that from these, we get the traditional interpretation of the 10th house as one's public image and the destiny of which one is capable if we fulfill our potential. Sounds like the 10th house as it was described by traditional astrologers.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but then the ascendant is the degree of a sign just rising on the horizon at the native's birth. So one's AS is always in the sign rising--regardless of whether it was 0 or 29 degrees. With the whole sign system, it might be buried deep in the first house.

But then, the signs are simply counted around the horoscope using the rising sign as house #1, giving a 10th house cusp at what is today the "top" of the chart, regardless of where the MC actually falls. Its association with public reputation, honours, vocation, (and possibly Mom) bear little relationship to the actual zenith at the time of a person's birth.

I just checked Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky, a traditionalist's history of astrological houses. She doesn't say much about the MC, but gives Firmicus Maternus as actually calling the 10th house the MC. Tamsyn Barton, in her book Ancient Astrology doesn't give details either, but notes there was a lot of variation in terms of how ancient astrologers interpreted the MC and 10th house connection.

MSO, I have no problem with you or anyone else using the whole sign system. As I've noted above, sometimes I will use it myself. Astrological interpretation would seem to be a personal thing. If it were not, then western and Vedic astrologers could not equally claim valid results. But they do, despite the differences in their methods.

From my experience and perspective, Placidus normally works just fine.
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Unread 08-30-2011, 09:42 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

These articles on the history and rationale of the different house systems might be of interest.

Deborah Houlding, "The Problem of House Division." www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob_print.html

She wrote: "The midheaven is referred to as the most important angle of all and many spheres of life that we would assign to other houses are assessed by Ptolemy through the use of the culminating degree and the place that is succeeding to it. By this he means the 10th house, as the area that is rising by diurnal motion to the degree of the midheaven. This area is representative of all our outward endeavours and accomplishments: our actions, friendships, children, and everything from which our reputation is established."

Michael P. Munkasey, "An Astrological House Formulary"
www.scribd.com/doc/6495552/An-Astrological-House-Formulary

He asked, ".... which house system is best to use?

"There is no simple or direct answer to that question. However, I can give you two good thoughts on the subject: use that house system which divides space in such a way that the planets fall into houses which describe their function in the nature of the event; and, use that house system which gives cusps against which you can time events. That is, if the Moon function of this event is described well by a Moon in the eighth house, then the house system you choose should not place the Moon in the seventh or ninth, or some [other] house."


MSO, Munkasey raises a whole other issue about the whole sign system, which is using house cusps to time events in predictive or electional astrology.. Whatever benefits the whole sign system might give to natal chart interpretation, you really can't use it to time events. If you could, anything of significance in an individual's (or nation's, business's, &c) life would happen only when a planet transited or progressed to zero degrees of a sign.

Munkasey, BTW, thinks Placidus gives the best results for timing of events.
For sure, you might time events by looking at transits of planets to aspects or conjunctions with one another, but the whole sign system pretty much leaves out a tool that was in use during western traditional astrology's predominance.
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Unread 08-30-2011, 11:07 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

in my case both: Placidus and Whole House system work.



I have Mercury in the 10th in Placidus (I was studying communication then I change myself to Audio Visual Arts, and when I finish I plan to study another one.

In WHS I have Mercury in the 11th, all of my friends are like 1 or 2 years younger than me, and they are more talk-able than me.


Venus in the 11th in Placidus: All of my best friends have a strong Venus, most of them have Sun, Moon, Ascendant, in Libra or Taurus. I also find lovers via friends.

In WHS is Venus in the 12th: Relationships are confusing or with artistic lovers.


Moon in the 5th in Placidus: I love children, I have several hobbies, my mother is loud and she has presence.

Moon in the 6th in Placidus: My moon is wakened by Pluto and so I have stomach problems. My mother is a clean-freak.



Any astrologer have to consider an evaluation in both house systems.
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Unread 08-31-2011, 02:10 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
MSO, Munkasey raises a whole other issue about the whole sign system, which is using house cusps to time events in predictive or electional astrology.. Whatever benefits the whole sign system might give to natal chart interpretation, you really can't use it to time events. If you could, anything of significance in an individual's (or nation's, business's, &c) life would happen only when a planet transited or progressed to zero degrees of a sign.
The original use of whole sign houses involved the use of a "sensitive point" within each house that was at the same degree as the ascendant. Transits to this point could produce events. Additionally there were the ingresses into signs. Thus, Ancient Astrologers accurately predicted events while using Whole Sign houses and without the use of Placidus (whose ancestors had not yet been born). Placidus was unknown at the time of the inception of Whole Sign Houses - the original house system that has been used to time and predict events since ancient astrological times - there's a very basic and simple article at this link http://www.librarising.com/astrology...ignhouses.html giving some insight.

Chris Brennan wrote this in 2007
Some scholars such as Jim Tester have pointed out that the development of the houses in the Hellenistic period may have been partially motivated by an earlier Egyptian tradition of decanic astrology, which appears to have assigned certain topics such as livelihood, illness, marriage, children, etc., to specific portions of the diurnal rotation. This Egyptian tradition was then synthesized with the Mesopotamian system of the 12 signs of the zodiac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Munkasey, BTW, thinks Placidus gives the best results for timing of events. For sure, you might time events by looking at transits of planets to aspects or conjunctions with one another, but the whole sign system pretty much leaves out a tool that was in use during western traditional astrology's predominance.
IMO you are mistaken because you failed to take into account the correct use of whole sign houses as used by Vettius Valens et al - by that I mean the use of the "sensitive point" in each house that is at the same degree as the Ascendant. http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Robert Hand mentions that perhaps the Greco/Romans used porphyry for assessing certain elements of planetary strength, but is adamant that whole sign was used in making horoscopic delineation; the first statement (in extant literature) regarding the use by some astrologers of the porphyry system in horoscopic delineation, is by Olympiodorus in the mid 6th century.
Looking at Manilius, Valens, Sextus Empricus, Maximus, Antiochus, Paulus Alexandrianus, we find only whole sign formats; looking at Firmicus Maternus we seem to find the earliest clear reference to Equal house; at the 7th century we find Rhetorius using a quadrant system (which later became known as the Alchabitius house system)

One thing to note: the contrast between what is in Ptolemy and what is in Valens is striking-they are NOT AT ALL alike, in their respective treatment of astrological elements and doctrines-you will find this well illustrated in the over view to the full translation of Valens work. Some have stated that Ptolemy represented the attempted theoretical aristotelianizing systemization of astrology, whereas Valens represented astrology AS IT ACTUALLY WAS PRACTICED during those centuries-I myself accept this concept, and that is one of the reasons I do not credit Ptolemy nearly as much as do other followers of our astrological art...
Bob Schmidt has this to say:

There is this particularly tricky passage in Ptolemy which many people over the past 1,000 years or so have interpreted it to mean that Ptolemy was using quadrant style houses for topics. However, due to recent translations from Project Hindsight we know now that Ptolemy was consistently using whole sign houses to delineate topics throughout the entirety of his work known as the Tetrabiblos. In the introduction to his translation of Book 3 of the Tetrabiblos Robert Schmidt points out that, outside of his use of the so called ‘dynamic division’ for gaging planetary activity within the context of the length of life treatment… there is no reason to believe that Ptolemy regards the Horoskopos, Midheaven, etc., as anything other than whole-sign houses.
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Unread 08-31-2011, 06:30 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

JupiterAsc, as I said in my previous posts, there are other ways to time events (such as planet's transits and progressions to one another) that do not involve house cusps. Ptolemy (Tetrabiblos II:4-8) relied heavily on eclipses. I see no need to throw out a very useful tool in the astrologer's kit, however.

I just do not see how cusps in the whole sign system, whatever its merits in natal chart interpretation,can be used in electional and predictive astrology. You would have to assume that life's big events routinely occur when the relevant planet hits 0 degrees of a sign. The equal house system has the same problem, because the house cusps are at the same degree.

The first article you link makes some good points, such as the artifical, subjective nature of house division. It also seems to me to contain some errors. I don't think the ascendant is "the earth" but rather the point on the eastern horizon where the ecliptic hits it at the birth moment. Also, the MC represents the top-most point on the ecliptic at the birth moment, not the heavens more generally. We might argue that the AC/DC axis separates the heavens from the earth, however, as the DC is the point of the setting sun in the west. The earth has no "inner central sun."

This article argues a case, but doesn't clinch it. To do that, it would have to demonstrate that the whole sign system gives better interpretive results than the other house systems. And that would be a big project.

I also looked at the Brennan article that this initial article links. It has some other arguments that I find insufficiently compelling. Just because Hellenistic astrologers (some of them, mind you--not all of them) used a particular house system, that doesn't bind anybody to using it today. Nowhere in the rest of our lives do we feel compelled to mimic the Greeks and their Hellenized neighbours, as much as we might admire their achievements. In claiming that the Greeks got the whole sign system right, its proponents equally have to acknowledge some really goofball notions in Hellenistic astrology. Examples available upon request.

For that matter, Manilius described the effects of way more than 12 rising constellations on the native's personality and occupations. Many of these bear no relation to signs or houses. Firmicus Maternus describes an 8-house system in use during his day. Ptolemy notes differences in Babylonian and Egyptian systems of astrology. Porphyry and just possibly Alcabitius of house system fame lived in ancient times. So the idea that there was some sort of unified Hellenistic astrology to which we all owe unquestioning allegiance is historically untenable.

I do not buy the idea that this wonderful whole sign system was somehow lost through the ages as the Arabs inherited Greek astrology and then passed it along to Europeans. There don't seem to be huge temporal gaps as the Arabs picked up Tetrabiblos at least by the 9th century (according to the intro. to the Robbins translation, p. xiv.) Something as simple as the whole sign system --in an era prior to the development and widespread usage of accurate clocks --would surely have had a following if astrologers of yore thought it worked super well.

I am not mistaken that most of the house systems currently in use were developed during traditional astrology's (lengthy) heyday. There was no other kind of western astrology till the latter part of the 19th century. Koch, Vehlow, and a few others are modern. The use of accidental house cusp rulers or lords goes back to antiquity.

I don't dispute that Ptolemy probably used whole sign houses. He says very little about houses, however.

But the larger point is: so what?

p.s. Thanks for the Vettius Valens link.
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Last edited by waybread; 08-31-2011 at 06:33 AM.
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Unread 08-31-2011, 06:56 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Cusps:

Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point"; now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other. And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded! In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.
Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something) For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME) I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...

Last edited by dr. farr; 08-31-2011 at 07:02 AM.
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Unread 08-31-2011, 12:09 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
...Cusps:

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes...
Might this be the alleged 'misinterpretation' / 'mistranslation' that some say 'began' Equal house? The link is undeniable, no other system has a connection like this. I have also read the opposite argument; that Ptolemy used Equal as an 'improvement' upon Whole Sign. But again that's laden with other arguments such as; is Ptolemy (as a non-astrologer) sufficiently reliable and is his table of dignity reliable (I seen that Valens has a similar table which small differences which could replace it). I see that not everyone would be interested in this, but for any of us digging to the roots of these systems, this is a crux.

Equal house (misreading?) http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=19798

Also, doing some research into this on the forum, I found this:

"Yesterday I had the best test case ever - six planets in one sign (including the Sun) and two more grouped right next to the six, so they were all in the twelfth house (Placidus) or eleventh (Equal House)" lynnhayes

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=19798

She's a practising, professional astrologer and had been testing Equal and Placidus. I don't want to spoil the result of that 6 planets in one sign...check the above link to see what she found...I should say also, that if one system shows 6 planets in one house which the native clearly shows an attachment to, another system could show that too e.g. Placidus/Koch/Porphry show almost identical results to me in my chart.

Last edited by byjove; 08-31-2011 at 12:57 PM.
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Unread 08-31-2011, 10:17 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Dr. Farr--thank you for another informative post. Your knowledge of traditional astrology is really helpful.

I have also read that, in traditional astrology, the cusp wasn't necessarily at the beginning of the house. For some, it was at 5 degrees inwards. For Campanus, it was the centre of the house. Some astrologers think that if a planet is at the boundary between two houses, its influence will be felt primarily in the next house, not the house that it tenants. Ptolemy (Tetrabiblos 1:17) seems to equate signs and houses. In modern astrology using an unequal house system, the cusp isn't necessarily the most powerful point in the house unless it is an angle: any "power" would be conferred the house's tenants (if any), fixed stars, or the like. But your example of 18 degrees throughout the entire horoscope seems more like the equal house system than the whole sign system. What am I missing?

So if you read a chart, how do you understand the transit, for example, of a planet from one sign and house to the next one? How would you time an event using house cusps?
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Unread 09-01-2011, 12:20 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

To be honest, I did not read this entire discussion, but would postulate that making a determination about if house systems works based upon cook book definitions of aspects and planetary placement is a very bad idea.


I see Pluto as 'The Great Distiller.' It breaks everything down to it's simplest and most pure form. Pluto in the 11th then would mean that you are capable (over time) of becoming very clear on what you (not your ego, but you) want. It will help you cut the superflous and understand where you really want your life to go. This should not be confused with career. It would also show that you are very clear about the kind of people you want around you. Because of this strong sense of self within the group, people may actually be drawn to you and not realize that it's not you pursuing them, but vice versa. They may see a lot of activity around you and not perceive that you aren't reaching for all of that attention, it's just happening.

Just my opinion.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 02:59 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Waybread:

Using whole sign (which is also called sign/house because the house and the sign are always identical), when a planet first moves into the next house/sign, the affinities of that house begin to be affected by the planet: as the planet moves closer to the cusp (original meaning, ie, the sensitive point) of that house, the influence of the planet upon the affinities of that house become more and more significant, until the maximal influence occurs when the planet conjuncts the cusp (sensitive point) of that house, after which the influences of the planet on the affinities of that house decline, until the planet passes out of that house/sign, into the next house/sign.

Timing is similarly determined re to a planet's conjunction or perfecting of a hermetic aspect to the cusp (sensitive degree) of the particular house.

Remember that these whole sign cusps (sensitive degrees or "points") might fall anywhere in a given house/sign, depending upon where the ascending degree was in the ascending sign. ALL whole sign houses begin at 0 and end at 29:59:59 of the given sign, but the CUSP (sensitive point) can be anywhere within that house (sign) depending upon the ascending degree of the chart. In whole sign the cusps are exact degree-projections of the ascending degree into each of the remaining 11 signs/houses, which tie the cusps (sensitive points) of the houses, to the exact ascending degree of the chart.

Equal house does the same thing EXCEPT that the BEGINNING*of each house is where the exact degree projection of the ascending degree is placed-you can see how close this is to whole sign.

(*the later meaning of the term, cusp, as a border or transitional point from one place to another, one house to another)

Last edited by dr. farr; 09-01-2011 at 03:02 AM.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 04:02 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Waybread, when it comes to the MC, you treat it as a point like you would with the AC and DC. Admittedly I'm not knowledgeable enough about it to comment on how exactly it should be interpreted, and I won't add my own imaginative thinking to it.

Like dr. farr, I could care less which system was used first or how they originated. I'm only interested in what works. If it doesn't work, I discard it. For instance, I've been trying to get Lilly's Directions to work with my own natal, but I can't see how they do anything. So for now, at least until I can learn more about it, Directions are put on the back burner and labeled as "non-working."

dr. farr also raised an interesting point (hehe) about the cusps of the Houses that I was not aware of. I'll have to do some testing on myself to see if it's actually the case, but it does make sense. It's pretty difficult though, because my AC is 2 degrees XD

Munch provided some good input about the cook book delineations. I believe that to be true as well. To say "my planet feels better here" can be due to any number of reasons. Which is also the reason I believe these "incorrect" house systems have stuck around for so long. Essentially, from the way I see it, they're arriving at the right answers the wrong way. Ordinarily there's no problem with that, because in all honesty, it's the results that matter. However, eventually you're going to end up with the wrong answer, it's only a matter of time. Of course, it's easily written off as "astrology can't predict everything!"
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Unread 09-01-2011, 05:48 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

I will say that although I am an enthusiatic follower of whole sign, if you have been successful with any other house system format (or no house system at all, as in Cosmobiolgie) PLEASE keep using whatever works so well for you-as MSO says, it is the results YOU obtain, that count.

Our discussion in this thread is an exploration of thoughts, experiences and historical considerations regarding the various house system models, not an "I'm right you're wrong" debate-all honor to any house system which produces good delineative results in the hands of its followers!
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Unread 09-01-2011, 07:07 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

The limitations in using the whole sign system are overcome when one considers the various Divisional charts developed in vedic astrology. The astrlogers can use as many Divisional charts as required all of which are derived from the maiin sign chart , each giving a deeper insight into a particular area of a person's life

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Unread 09-01-2011, 07:16 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Quite true; in Western astrology, the Greco/Romans also used a kind of divisional chart in delineation: this was the Fortunata chart, with the Part of Fortune posited in the 1st house and the chart turned to center upon it. And then, too, there was use of decanate based and duodenary based charts, derived from the original chart; we can see, at this earlier time, some similarities in Western practice to the Vedic varga (divisional chart) system.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 07:30 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannan View Post
The limitations in using the whole sign system are overcome when one considers the various Divisional charts developed in vedic astrology. The astrlogers can use as many Divisional charts as required all of which are derived from the maiin sign chart , each giving a deeper insight into a particular area of a person's life

Kannan
I'm not quite sure what that has to do with any house system, but I have to say the navamsa (not sure if spelling correctly) is pretty awesome! If I understand it correctly, it's a great addition to my field of knowledge.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 11:17 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

I agree that trying to figure this out with one's own chart can be a tricky business, and sometimes thought processes on that are not always reasonable around here...but what about the example I gave above; of an astrologer checking out a client's chart which had clusters of planets in different houses which she felt gave her the good opportunity to test what works in her eyes? And if we don't test the results on our own charts, and not look at professional astrologers research, where next?

If not everyone is interested in the origins of the systems that's fine, but personally I have no interest in following systems that were supported by the powers of the day in a drive to kill the competition, I will never commit to that.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 11:22 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSO View Post
I'm not quite sure what that has to do with any house system, but I have to say the navamsa (not sure if spelling correctly) is pretty awesome! If I understand it correctly, it's a great addition to my field of knowledge.
Vedic astrology also started originally with sign=house system. Bhava(house) deliniation was added later. Divisional charts were being used from the very beginning and one such D-9 called Navamsa chart is constructed based on constellations running through the 12 signs. Many softwares and authors have explained the method of preparing a Navamsa chart. A Rasi (Sign) chart is invariably read along with a Navamsa chart in Vedic astrology for precise prediction. If Rasi chart is the body , Navamsa is the soul

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Unread 09-01-2011, 12:30 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Would it be logical to turn the chart to read houses?

Say for instance you wanted to read more into the 5th House. Turn the chart until the 5th House is on the Ascendant and then read the entire chart as a whole in terms of 5th House affairs. For instance the 6th House in that new chart would be how you have fun at work, and the 12th would be the fun that gets you in prison XD

I don't know if the ancients did that, but it would be pretty cool!
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Unread 09-01-2011, 10:28 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSO View Post
Would it be logical to turn the chart to read houses?

Say for instance you wanted to read more into the 5th House. Turn the chart until the 5th House is on the Ascendant and then read the entire chart as a whole in terms of 5th House affairs. For instance the 6th House in that new chart would be how you have fun at work, and the 12th would be the fun that gets you in prison XD

I don't know if the ancients did that, but it would be pretty cool!
Derivative houses. Robert Pelletier wrote a whole book about this...Planets in Houses. I am sure there must be others.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 10:34 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/rulersofhousesinhouses.html
http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/astrology/LearningAstrology/housesDerived.htm
http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/houserulerships.htm
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Unread 09-01-2011, 10:41 PM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSO View Post
Would it be logical to turn the chart to read houses?
Say for instance you wanted to read more into the 5th House. Turn the chart until the 5th House is on the Ascendant and then read the entire chart as a whole in terms of 5th House affairs. For instance the 6th House in that new chart would be how you have fun at work, and the 12th would be the fun that gets you in prison XD
I don't know if the ancients did that, but it would be pretty cool!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Derivative houses. Robert Pelletier wrote a whole book about this...Planets in Houses. I am sure there must be others.
"Sun Sign Astrology" which is used for newspaper and magazine daily,weekly, monthly, yearly, horoscope prediction puts the Sun on the Ascendant each month along with the current transiting planets, then reads that to make general predictions for every Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo et al.

Some astrology software lets you put any planet on the ascendant
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Unread 09-02-2011, 02:25 AM
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Re: Whole Sign or Placidus?

All right, sports fans. Is anyone ready for a real cage match between whole signs and Placidus in predictive astrology?? (or post-dictive, in this case.)

I post some charts for Queen Elizabeth II. The birth times of the British royal family are closely timed. Their lives are highly public. QE2 has lived most of her life, so there is little guessing about how it will turn out.

For a fair test, predictive astrology shouldn't look at a date that affects an entire cohort; and it should be something unanticipated. One of Elizabeth's major unexpected moments came on February 6, 1952 when her father died while she was traveling in Kenya, making her simultaneously a bereaved daughter and the queen of the British Empire. She was touring in Kenya at the time. Her actual coronation occured the following year, but her ascending to the throne was immediate. (Another interesting date would be Jan 20, 1936 when her uncle abdicated, putting her directly into the line of succession.)

I've used the Astrodienst free software for the charts. You can't input a time for a transit or progression which could skew the houses on a progressed chart, they don't do primary directions, and no doubt other limitations.

I am posting 4 charts: 3 in Placidus using modern astrology, and one in whole signs using just the traditional 7 planets. I don't mean to short-change whole-sign advocates, so with the birth data provided please post additional charts if you feel they make your case.

Dr. Farr, a special thanks to you for your teaching moments on traditional astrology. Hopefully you, MOS, JupiterAsc and others will interpret this important moment using the whole sign house system-- or other traditional techniques.

I'll come up with some modern interpretations in my next post here.
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