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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 12-11-2019, 12:52 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

For those exploring concept of "essential dignities" in astrology
looking in-depth at the categories of rulership and detriment or exile
as well as exaltation and fall or depression.
also explores common misconceptions about planetary dignities, along the way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvDQiISa7SY

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #2  
Unread 12-11-2019, 08:58 PM
AJ Astrology AJ Astrology is offline
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Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
For those exploring concept of "essential dignities" in astrology
looking in-depth at the categories of rulership and detriment or exile
as well as exaltation and fall or depression.
also explores common misconceptions about planetary dignities, along the way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvDQiISa7SY

Hi JUPITERASC,

There's only three dignities: domicile, exaltation and fall.

Sun is exalted in Aries because of Spring.

Sun is in fall in Libra because of Fall. 'Tis the Season.

Every body is exalted in the sign it is for similar reasons.

[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

Last edited by wilsontc; 02-23-2020 at 01:12 PM.
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  #3  
Unread 12-11-2019, 09:33 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi JUPITERASC,

Can you at least summarize? Not everyone can afford the luxury of wasting an hour and 40 minutes of their life on a hack video.
There's only three dignities: domicile, exaltation and fall.
It's not my fault the silly Greeks were too stupid to understand why the bodies are domiciled where they are.
It's not my fault the idiot Greeks were too stupid to understand why the bodies are exalted where they are, and as a consequence of the reason why they're exalted, they're in fall in the opposite sign.
Then the moronic Greeks were stupid enough to thin that if a body is in fall in the sign opposite exaltation a body must be "harmed" by being opposite it's domicile.
It's not my fault people are dumb enough to drink their Kool-aid.
There's a reason why Sun is exalted in Aries. Would you like to guess why?
I'll give you a hint: something happens in March. Yeah, it has to do with Spring.
Would you like to guess why Sun is in fall in Libra?
I'll give you a hint: what happens 6 months/signs after Aries?
Yeah, it's Fall. 'Tis the Season.
Every body is exalted in the sign it is for similar reasons.
Still waiting for you to post even one chart proving Sun is in detriment in Aquarius.
Are you going to do that while we're all still young, or do you plan on waiting until we're all dead?
depends how long you personally require to lern the orbits of the planets

i.e.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

Hi petosiris,
I never said anything about Jupiter, other than Jupiter spends
~1 month in a sign.
Siriusly
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

Hi petosiris,
It takes Jupiter about a year to traverse the signs,
on the contrary
Jupiter takes approximately a year to traverse EACH sign
AND NOT 'a year to traverse the signs'
i.e. and I quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post


It takes Jupiter about a year to traverse the signs,
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

so he's in each sign for about a month (more if he's slow or retrograde).
WRONG
Jupiter spends approximately ONE YEAR IN EACH SIGN
fortunately ours is a learning forum
and petosiris has corrected your erroneous information as follows
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Dude, the Sun travels 360 in a year not a day,

and Jupiter in 12 years, not 1 year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi petosiris,

If you read Morinus, he touches on that.

I can't remember where I read about it, but two men were born in London at either identical birth times or within a minute or two of each other.

One became king of Britain and the other an industrial magnate, that is, the king or captain of his industry.

That's pretty weird, but it also validates astrology.

It takes Jupiter about a year to traverse the signs, so he's in each sign for about a month (more if he's slow or retrograde). That means a lot of people will be born with Saturn and Jupiter in the same signs. The difference will be the inferiors, Sun, Moon, Asc, MC and Mars of course.

I'd bet if you found similar charts, those people are largely politicians, CEOs, general officers in the military, presidents of business, civic or community groups, or leading scientists or researchers in their fields as dictated by the chart.

Even if not, they'd still have some success. They might not be a CEO, but they might be a plant manager or other high level manager or executive or shop foreman/supervisor or some other leadership capacity in their area.

Anyway, don't be shocked if you find more charts that are similar.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #4  
Unread 12-11-2019, 09:41 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

Can someone show me
how Carole King
was harmed?



She's 75 and still writing songs, still performing in public and on TV and not in the poor-house.

I'm not seeing
how her life
is a Greek tragedy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post

In case you didn't know, H5 is the artsy house and it also trines Ascendant.
in case you did not know, House Five Significations include:
Love affairs, romance, lovemaking, sex.
If afflicted, promiscuity, sexual inhibition, immorality
overindulgence
and
scandals.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h5.html

The acute probably already noted CAROLE KING has AQUARIUS SUN FIFTH HOUSE

Carole King may have "had plenty of money"
however
Carole King’s husbands/relationships over decades
led from romance to tragedy.

In Goffin's case, it was his use of LSD.
King leaves out his supposed affairs.

Carole King divorced husband No. 2, bass player Charles Larkey
after two kids and six years of marriage.
Most of Carole King’s husbands are still alive
but not Rick Evers, struggling musician
who became Carole King's third husband.

Rick Evers died from an overdose of cocaine
at a shooting gallery in Los Angeles in 1978
leaving King a widow at age 36.

Carole King slow to recognize the red flags
in Evers’ increasingly possessive, paranoid behavior
reveals
1978, when married and back in L.A., Laurel Canyon
Evers slugged her in the jaw without any warning.

and unfortunately

This soon became a pattern:
While she was lying on the ground
Evers would cry and apologize.

Carole King writes: “......I’d always thought, if I found myself with a man like that
first time he struck me
I would never stay with an abuser.
Until I did.....”
Carole King learned to say “no” to her cash-dependant husband
who constantly asked her for money to buy drugs
she eventually left Evers.

Husband No. 4, carpenter from Idaho Rick Sorensen, aka "Teepee Rick," to whom Carole King was married from 1982 to 1987
bought a large ranch with her in central Idaho
which he managed until they split.


For those looking in-depth at the categories of rulership and detriment or exile
as well as exaltation and fall or depression.
also explores common misconceptions about planetary dignities, along the way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvDQiISa7SY
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #5  
Unread 12-12-2019, 04:02 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
There's only three dignities: domicile, exaltation and fall.
But I thought terms and 12th parts were the only way to explain differences between twins...

And fall is not a dignity, it is usually called a debility.

Quote:
It's not my fault the silly Greeks were too stupid to understand why the bodies are domiciled where they are.

It's not my fault the idiot Greeks were too stupid to understand why the bodies are exalted where they are, and as a consequence of the reason why they're exalted, they're in fall in the opposite sign.

Then the moronic Greeks were stupid enough to thin that if a body is in fall in the sign opposite exaltation a body must be "harmed" by being opposite it's domicile.
You must really hate Greeks. Can you explain why Mars is exalted in Capricorn? Sometimes it is hard to understand someone speaking through so much foam in his mouth.

Last edited by petosiris; 12-12-2019 at 04:08 AM.
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Unread 12-30-2019, 08:35 PM
Aria Venue Aria Venue is offline
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Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Jupiter what a wonderful video indeed regarding essential dignities ..this is one of the lessons i loved more when i was studying them following the same approach through art
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  #7  
Unread 12-31-2019, 12:03 AM
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Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

Jupiter what a wonderful video indeed regarding essential dignities
..this is one of the lessons i loved more when i was studying them
following the same approach through art
Another perspective on the same topic Aria Venue
at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxD2S9tQCkM
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 12-31-2019, 10:19 AM
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Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

We have no sidereal boards
so here's an opportunity to assess planetary strength and dignity sidereally
The sign and house a planet is in represents
whether that planet is able to express itself easily or not.
A planet in a comfortable location of the chart
makes those aspects of the personality and life easier to work with.
While planets in challenging locations makes it more difficult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsitq-7z7nE
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 12-31-2019, 02:30 PM
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Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Hi JupiterAsc,

I will watch this with interest later, marking this so that I can locate it in subscribed threads. Thanks. Opal
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Unread 01-04-2020, 05:42 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: RULERSHIP - DETRIMENT aka EXILE also EXALTATION & FALL an in-depth exploration

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Another perspective on the same topic Aria Venue
at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxD2S9tQCkM
Not all astrologers have made a distinction between essential and accidental dignities and debilities. Dorotheus, Ptolemy, Valens, Paulus and other Hellenistic astrologers often group them together, for example Dorotheus and Valens compare ''inoperative'' planets in fall to ''inoperative'' planets in cadent houses, meaning that they thought they meant power, Ptolemy and Paulus likewise grouped ''inoperative'' phases (like evening retrograde) with them.

Quote:
For the magnitude of the event we must examine their power and observe whether they are actively situated both in the cosmos itself and in the nativity, or the reverse; for they are most effective when, with respect to the cosmos, they are in their own or in familiar regions, and again when they are rising and are increasing in their numbers; and, with respect to the nativity, whenever they are passing through the angles or signs that rise after them, and especially the principal of these, by which I mean the signs ascendant and culminating. They are weakest, with respect to the universe, when they are in places belonging to others or those unrelated to them, and when they are occidental or retreating in their course; and, with respect to the nativity, when they are declining from the angles. - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/3A*.html#3
Ptolemy seems to make a distinction between the universe and the nativity only with regard to time here.

It is true that when such a distinction is sometimes made, the essential dignity is taken with regard to quality, while the accidental dignity is taken with regard to quantity, but this in my opinion wrong theoretically and experientially. Indian astrologers have even made two distinct concepts of Ishta (power to do good) and Kashtha (power to do harm) to do deal with some related problems.

Naturally, why does Saturn become stronger to help or harm at the Midheaven? You would answer that it has more power to cool there. Then I would ask why would Saturn become stronger to help, but not stronger to harm in Libra or Aquarius since these signs increase cold in the exact same way???

But you ask doesn't Saturn sometimes give great wealth and power to nativities, and doesn't he sometimes cause great afflictions? Yes, of course, but that has to do with his harmonious or disharmonious relationship with the planet/angle/lot through the different aspects and natures of the subjects. So combining essential and accidental dignity into the same concept does not prevent us from making these distinctions, while I would argue that too much emphasis on the essential dignity could prevent someone making this distinction in the particular cases - for example when it helps rank with trine to the Sun from Aquarius by day, but causes divorce with square to the Moon in a dual sign in a male nativity, Aquarius is not going to help the first and mitigate the latter, I argue that is going to increase and actualize the effects of both.

Powerful Saturn at the nativity does not mean that it will give only very good or very evil at all times (though it certainly can exceed in one direction), if you use the recasting of horoscopes at solar and lunar revolutions, planets change their powers, which allows for differentiation in the chronocratorship. You can't make this important differentiation if you only use primary directions, profections or what have you with the nativity though.

Last edited by petosiris; 01-04-2020 at 06:30 AM.
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