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  #1  
Unread 07-27-2013, 12:11 AM
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Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

I've been recently hanging out with a girl who's heaps of fun. We get on very well together. We are always genuinely happy to see one another. We've gone out about twice so far, but there's a problem. She's younger than I, by about 10 years. She also comes from the "other side of the tracks," so to speak. I worry about conflict and headache. I worry about the age difference, too.

Anyway, point being is that I really like her. And I haven't asked a question for ages. I just cast a chart, and I'm going to look at it. But some others' input would be great since there are a mighty fine collection of horary astrologers lurking about on here.

Question: If I pursue this, will we be lovers?

Thanks peeps.

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Unread 07-27-2013, 01:10 AM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

Okay. I looked at it for a bit.

It's in a late ascendant but that could be simply because I took days to get my computer going so it took anywhere from 10 to seven minutes to make the chart. The planetary day and hour are in agreement. I am Mars and she is Venus, very suitable. This always happens for me when I ask a question like this.

The Moon just entered Aries, the sign of passion or directed emotional focus. The lights trine one another, which presages a "yes" answer. That is a very good testimony.

The planets are in their fall, I in the eighth house and she in the 9th house. She is cadent, as well. Also, we are out of sect since this is a diurnal chart. We are impeded, for sure. This could be in reference to the conflicts mentioned already. Jupiter is prohibiting the formation of the sextile between us. But from my own experience, because this is a benefic, I regard the interference to be merely that, interference, and not destructive or preventing our "coming together." It could even be beneficial. I know this is contrary to some axioms from antiquity, but regarding it this way has proven to work in my practice.

Saturn is in the same sign as the ascendant, though not in the first house in this house system. I believe it shows my age.

With the Sun and Moon forming a trine as well, I take the overall outcome to be a yes. I suppose the next question will be: "How long will it last?" That will be fore another time . . . .

OK. This is a pretty lazy interpretation, but it looks like a yes, one that will come with problems.

Anyone see anything different?
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Unread 07-27-2013, 05:01 AM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

(Following is not in accordance with standard horary practice and uses whole sign house format)

I'll use the Part of Lovers (mars+venus-cusp of 5th whole sign house) to estimate an answer to the question:

-querent = first house = Scorpio = Mars
-quesited ("C") = 7th house = Taurus = Venus
-Part of Lovers falls @ 17 Sagittarius
-querent and quesited significators both flow toward the POL = + testimony
-dispositor of the POL, Jupiter, is in exaltation in Cancer = + testimony
Answer: yes it is possible that if querent pursues this, they will become lovers.
Problem: both querent Mars and quesited Venus are in their respective signs of Fall: so there will be big problems to overcome, over time; but the chart indicates that resolve and persistence will result in querent and quesited becoming lovers...
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Unread 07-27-2013, 05:42 AM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

First, it's not the right question. "Will C and I be lovers?" Meaning lovers in a physical sense? And for how long? Clearly, you aren't asking about a passing romance, or even the proverbial toss in the hay, because you said this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
I've been recently hanging out with a girl who's heaps of fun. We get on very well together. We are always genuinely happy to see one another. We've gone out about twice so far, but there's a problem. She's younger than I, by about 10 years. She also comes from the "other side of the tracks," so to speak. I worry about conflict and headache. I worry about the age difference, too.
I may be an old <happily> married lady, but I wasn't always. Boys and girls on the prowl don't ask questions that have this kind of depth unless they are actually hoping for something more than "will C and I be lovers?" Rolls in the hay and passing romance almost never leave room for socio-economic questions, age related questions, and worry about conflict and headache.

Which means the honest question is either "If I have a passing romance with C will she stalk my facebook page, call and text me all the time and possibly key my car when it is over?" Or, the real question is "I really like this woman, think I could love this woman, and even though there are large gaps in age and status, is this a real love relationship?"

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
It's in a late ascendant but that could be simply because I took days to get my computer going so it took anywhere from 10 to seven minutes to make the chart. The planetary day and hour are in agreement.
You know better than that. Because if you had asked the question earlier than when you cast the chart no matter how many delays there were, you are astrologer enough to have noted the date and time. Jeez, Cypo, when I asked my lawsuit question I was driving home from work, noted the time and place (not my home town) where I was en route, and then asked a friend. I didn't pull the chart myself for three days after that. It's a late ASC because it's a late ASC. Meaning you already know at least in part how this story will end.

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
I am Mars and she is Venus, very suitable. This always happens for me when I ask a question like this.
Don't you just love the symbolism?

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
The Moon just entered Aries, the sign of passion or directed emotional focus. The lights trine one another, which presages a "yes" answer. That is a very good testimony.
Let's back up just a minute. ASC is in Scorpio, which is Moon's detriment, and what is it that Scorpio represents?

Moon just entered Aries, in the 5th sign, 4th house, masculine degree, sign, and quadrant, and Moon is not the sect light, though at least below the horizon in a day chart. At the very least we can say that Moon is doing or thinking of doing somthing that is either out of <her> nature, or completely inappropriate.

Moon's last aspect was a trine to Mercury, in Cancer so received by Moon, in the 9th sign but the 8th house. Cancer is intercepted in the chart you posted, and Mercury rules the cusp of the 8th, and oh, looky, the 10th. When this trine happened, Moon was in Pisces, 5th sign, 4th house and the exaltation of Venus. I think we can rule out that the question is about whether C will stalk your facebook page and key your car after this is over, and get down to...is maybe C the one?


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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
I suppose the next question will be: "How long will it last?"
You do know that this is not a separate question, right?

There is more..but it's late, lol.
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Unread 07-27-2013, 05:51 AM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

I took the querent to mean lovers in the physical sense, not just a roll in the hay but lovers on a physical basis over a more prolonged, continuous period of time. For me, a different framing of the question by the querent would have led me to choose another Lot as primary quesited: for example, "will we have a love affair" would have led me to choose the Part of Romance; "shall we fall in love with each other" would have led me to choose the Part of Love; "will we have a long term love relationship" (or lasting romance or words to that effect) would have led me to choose the Lot of Marriage, etc etc.

Understanding the INTENT of the querent's question is, actually, the most important single key to obtaining likely accurate horary delineations, moreso than any other of the many rules or strictures regarding the mechanics of whether or not a chart is "radical" or readable, etc...MISUNDERSTANDING the INTENT of the querent in aksing the horary question is the most common reason for incorrect horary delineations!
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Unread 07-27-2013, 05:55 PM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Problem: both querent Mars and quesited Venus are in their respective signs of Fall: so there will be big problems to overcome, over time; but the chart indicates that resolve and persistence will result in querent and quesited becoming lovers...
Thank you, Dr. Farr. The "problems" are evident. I often rely on intuition, my gut feeling, which is always right (if I listen to it!). I actually use the I-ching for wisdom, and in short, the main issue that showed forth was that of barriers in the form of social differentiation. (I love the I-ching.) I suppose the most non-pejoritive analogy that can be made is that of a young peasant Islamic girl with a mature, noble Christian man—during the High Middle Ages. Although, age difference back then, especially of a girl in her 20s with a man in his 30s, wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. Nevertheless, it would be viewed as challenging. Probably more challenging than my situation but, regardless, that is my feeling of the planets being in such a deplorable state. On an optimistic note, however, is that the planets are in their fall (albeit some have judged such to be worse than detriment) as opposed to being in a state of detriment. T-small has noted more specific handicaps using Ptolemaic factors, although, I am not a full believer in the practical use of such archaic elements as I have noticed that, often, they tend to be meaningless and lead to, at the very best, superfluous judgments.

More importantly, and to answer the fundamental underlying intent of the question, your understanding regarding the meaning of my question in a long-term sense is correct. "Lovers," to me, is an extended relationship because I view love (even affection) as enduring, despite its too often expiring prematurely in its practical application. (Here's where I refrain from going into a long discussion on the human expression of love, as tempting as it might be. I do so out the utmost respect for your eyes!)

Anyway, I've gone on about this long enough. The point is that you correctly understood the intent of my question, despite its being ambiguous.

Thank you!
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Unread 07-27-2013, 07:32 PM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

Ah!!!! I just wrote heaps and it's all gone!

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
First, it's not the right question. "Will C and I be lovers?" Meaning lovers in a physical sense? And for how long? Clearly, you aren't asking about a passing romance, or even the proverbial toss in the hay, because you said this

I may be an old <happily> married lady, but I wasn't always. Boys and girls on the prowl don't ask questions that have this kind of depth unless they are actually hoping for something more than "will C and I be lovers?" Rolls in the hay and passing romance almost never leave room for socio-economic questions, age related questions, and worry about conflict and headache.

Which means the honest question is either "If I have a passing romance with C will she stalk my facebook page, call and text me all the time and possibly key my car when it is over?" Or, the real question is "I really like this woman, think I could love this woman, and even though there are large gaps in age and status, is this a real love relationship?"
This suckith. I had such a good response to your post.

First, I will say it is clearly the latter and not the former. God . . . what the freck did I even say in the first place. (I'm trying to remember what it was but I've been mutli-tasking and my mind is all over the place.)


Quote:
You know better than that. Because if you had asked the question earlier than when you cast the chart no matter how many delays there were, you are astrologer enough to have noted the date and time. Jeez, Cypo, when I asked my lawsuit question I was driving home from work, noted the time and place (not my home town) where I was en route, and then asked a friend. I didn't pull the chart myself for three days after that. It's a late ASC because it's a late ASC. Meaning you already know at least in part how this story will end.
I do know. I sure do. OK. Here's a song that just popped into mind. Makes me always think about these situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfi1UQ_PKQI

Quote:
Don't you just love the symbolism?
I know! Crazy . . . .

Quote:
Let's back up just a minute. ASC is in Scorpio, which is Moon's detriment, and what is it that Scorpio represents?
It represents "sex" or "passion" and the intensification of a one-to-one relationship1.

Quote:
Moon just entered Aries, in the 5th sign, 4th house, masculine degree, sign, and quadrant, and Moon is not the sect light, though at least below the horizon in a day chart. At the very least we can say that Moon is doing or thinking of doing somthing that is either out of <her> nature, or completely inappropriate.
I am emotionally (Moon) unsure and may think I am going down the wrong path.

Quote:
Moon's last aspect was a trine to Mercury, in Cancer so received by Moon, in the 9th sign but the 8th house. Cancer is intercepted in the chart you posted, and Mercury rules the cusp of the 8th, and oh, looky, the 10th. When this trine happened, Moon was in Pisces, 5th sign, 4th house and the exaltation of Venus. I think we can rule out that the question is about whether C will stalk your facebook page and key your car after this is over, and get down to...is maybe C the one?
Hmmm. A serious relationship . . . . Cancer is fundamentally the forming of relationships, and the eighth house, in its most relevant and complimentary meaning, is "sex organs."2 Let the loose thought associations flow! Ninth house can represent marriages. The Moon last passed over Neptune (yeah, modern) and could show romanticism but also reinforces the quality of confusion.

Just to note some factors, Venus is doing pretty good. It is occidental the Sun, in the 9th house, etc. Factoring in everything, it is actually working well rather than poorly, despite its being in fall. The same is true with Mars, being in mutual reception with the Moon and oriental. It is also strengthened by its configuration to Jupiter, which lends it strength. Both are fast in motion, strengthening them but also showing that the relationship could progress rather quickly.

Quote:
You do know that this is not a separate question, right?

There is more..but it's late, lol.
You can? I'd be very interesting to "know how it all ends."

Hey thanks so much, T-small. I appreciate your looking into this. I just wish my original post came through. Argh! I have to run now. Talk to you laterz . . . .

1 I am using modern usage of the sign meanings
2 Id.
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Unread 07-27-2013, 08:41 PM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

T-Small,

Just out of curiosity, what is your judgment? You described the chart but did not really describe the manifestation of the symbols in terms of events. I am curious.
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Unread 07-27-2013, 10:21 PM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

I want to address a statement I made. The comparison of a noble and servant is not to imply one of us is less than or more than the other, despite how it sounds. It is only to reflect social difficulties and that my peers, these days, tend to be stuffy. It could work in the converse where I am a beggar man and she a lady for the social effect would be the same. I just wanted to clarify because I do not like how the analogy sounds in the context of greater than and less than. It also happens that I have been reading history, lately.
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Unread 07-28-2013, 04:40 AM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
This suckith. I had such a good response to your post.
This crackith me up. But if it makes you feel better I cannot count the number of times I've had that happen. Here's a helpful tip...if it takes you more than 20 minutes to type something here, copy it all before you preview the post. That way, if it's not there you can just paste it back in.

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
First, I will say it is clearly the latter and not the former. God . . . what the freck did I even say in the first place. (I'm trying to remember what it was but I've been mutli-tasking and my mind is all over the place.)
Thank you, though I was already getting that vibe from the chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
I do know. I sure do. OK. Here's a song that just popped into mind. Makes me always think about these situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfi1UQ_PKQI
Actually, these situations and questions always make me think of this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDnfCuakV64


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
I am emotionally (Moon) unsure and may think I am going down the wrong path.
No. Well, yes, emotionally unsure but why? Because you are considering something that challenges your own belief system (do you see all the planets assembled in th 9th sign, Cancer, which is, um, intercepted?)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
Hmmm. A serious relationship . . . . Cancer is fundamentally the forming of relationships, and the eighth house, in its most relevant and complimentary meaning, is "sex organs."2 Let the loose thought associations flow! Ninth house can represent marriages. The Moon last passed over Neptune (yeah, modern) and could show romanticism but also reinforces the quality of confusion.
I got nothing for this, mainly because I just don't get what you are saying. But that's cool. Although I would love to hear about how exactly Cancer is the forming of relationships. I don't need Neptune to see why you are torn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
Just to note some factors, Venus is doing pretty good. It is occidental the Sun, in the 9th house, etc.
Yeah, occidental the Sun in a day chart and Venus is a nocturnal planet...meaning she wants to be ahead of the Sun here, not coming behind it. Sect, Sect, Sect. Venus applies to a sextile with Mars, so Venus wants to connect with Mars in an intimate way. But is there anything getting in the way? Let's see...how about Jupiter, whom she will sextile first? What does Jupiter represent? Him being the exaltation ruler of the querent's 9th sign, as well as the querent's 2nd and 4th houses. Oh, and Mars has separated from Jupiter, which means that Mars isn't paying attention to those anymore. Yet, Venus needs to do something to get past Jupiter before she gets to Mars. What was the last thing Venus did? Venus separates from a sextile (which she dominated because of her position) to Saturn...oy. Saturn is in the same sign as the ASC, and is the exaltation ruler of the 12th, and Venus is also the ruler of the 12th.

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
Factoring in everything, it is actually working well rather than poorly, despite its being in fall. The same is true with Mars, being in mutual reception with the Moon and oriental. It is also strengthened by its configuration to Jupiter, which lends it strength. Both are fast in motion, strengthening them but also showing that the relationship could progress rather quickly.
Where does the Moon go next? She squares Jupiter, who is exalted and in her domicile for all that Moon is in detriment, then she squares Mars. MR by detriment or debility.

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
T-Small,

Just out of curiosity, what is your judgment? You described the chart but did not really describe the manifestation of the symbols in terms of events. I am curious.
Well, I'd prefer more time when I'm not constantly being interrupted by people or the need to go to work...but.

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
Question: If I pursue this, will we be lovers?
You have a what? Late ASC, and all the rest of the signifiers. So, yeah. If you pursue this, you will be lovers.

How will it end? At this point in time, given the chart and all it is saying...does that question even matter? Life, above all, is for living. I for one would seriously hate to see you decide not to pursue something that could be possibly not permanent because you were afraid (8th house intercepts 9th sign and Mercury, that little guy, is posited in the 8th and doing the "intercepting??) to even try.
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Unread 07-28-2013, 04:20 PM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
This crackith me up. But if it makes you feel better I cannot count the number of times I've had that happen. Here's a helpful tip...if it takes you more than 20 minutes to type something here, copy it all before you preview the post. That way, if it's not there you can just paste it back in.
Yeah. That's what I usually do. Not sure why I didn't that time.


Quote:
Actually, these situations and questions always make me think of this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDnfCuakV64

Apt song. Thanks for sharing.

Quote:
No. Well, yes, emotionally unsure but why? Because you are considering something that challenges your own belief system (do you see all the planets assembled in th 9th sign, Cancer, which is, um, intercepted?)
I look for uncomplicated situations. My life is already complicated enough with obligation, and anything hinting at "work" or "complications" makes me cringe a bit, which is reflected well in the chart, it seems.

Quote:
I got nothing for this, mainly because I just don't get what you are saying. But that's cool. Although I would love to hear about how exactly Cancer is the forming of relationships. I don't need Neptune to see why you are torn.
Yeah. What I was seeing with Cancer is based on the combination of triplicities and qaudruplicities, changeable (cardinal) flows with (water), one is initiating and the other emotional, so the initiating of emotions or, in this situation, relationships.

Quote:
Yeah, occidental the Sun in a day chart and Venus is a nocturnal planet...meaning she wants to be ahead of the Sun here, not coming behind it. Sect, Sect, Sect.
My Hellenistic astrology (and Medieval for that matter) is woefully under par. I have my time divided in other areas, so my intention to familiarize myself with this area, which I had planned months and months ago, has yet to happen. But next time, I will have the basics down, for sure. I have already learned some interesting points about this ancient method, which I cannot wait to test in the field. I am designing experiments to verify some of these techniques. I hope it comes off the ground within the year.

And to digress just a bit, I find it frustrating that there is such little feedback on everyone's horary readings. The most important part is missing, that being whether our judgment or judgments are correct. People tend to get an answer and disappear, or the question asked demands an answer that is either nebulous or likely to occur in such a remote part of the future that proper feedback may take several years to reach us.

Anyway, back to your judgment . . . .

Quote:
Venus applies to a sextile with Mars, so Venus wants to connect with Mars in an intimate way.
I like the fact that it is a sextile, too. Clearly a venereal connection1.

Quote:
But is there anything getting in the way? Let's see...how about Jupiter, whom she will sextile first? What does Jupiter represent?
Yeah. I noticed its frustrating the connectivity. But this is similar to the situation I had with the bar exam question, except there it was Venus frustrating the aspect. But I made the hypothesis that a beneficent planet intercepting does not frustrate the harmonious aspect. I will tell you how it goes here.

Quote:
Him being the exaltation ruler of the querent's 9th sign, as well as the querent's 2nd and 4th houses. Oh, and Mars has separated from Jupiter, which means that Mars isn't paying attention to those anymore.
Yeah. And I take back the statement that Jupiter is dignifying Mars via a conjunction because it is not partile.

Quote:
Yet, Venus needs to do something to get past Jupiter before she gets to Mars. What was the last thing Venus did? Venus separates from a sextile (which she dominated because of her position) to Saturn...oy. Saturn is in the same sign as the ASC, and is the exaltation ruler of the 12th, and Venus is also the ruler of the 12th.
I am going to have to ponder this . . . .

Quote:
Where does the Moon go next? She squares Jupiter, who is exalted and in her domicile for all that Moon is in detriment, then she squares Mars. MR by detriment or debility.
And this too . . . .


Quote:
You have a what? Late ASC, and all the rest of the signifiers. So, yeah. If you persue this, you will be lovers.
I will let you know how we get on in the future. If it doesn't pan out initially, the onus of failure will be mine alone, I am sure.

Quote:
How will it end? At this point in time, given the chart and all it is saying...does that question even matter? Life, above all, is for living. I for one would seriously hate to see you decide not to persue something that could be possibly not permanent because you were afraid (8th house intercepts 9th sign and Mercury, that little guy, is posited in the 8th and doing the "intercepting??) to even try.
I'll give it a try and go headfirst—and hope I come out alive.

Thank you T-small for taking the time to go over this with me. I appreciate it!

1 In an etymologically literal sense.
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Unread 07-29-2013, 01:08 AM
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Re: Despite social boundaries, will C and I be lovers? Show I pursue this?

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
Yeah. I noticed its frustrating the connectivity.
Yes, Jupiter is frustrating the connectivity. Why? Because Jupiter is exalted in Cancer, the 9th sign, Jupiter is in Cancer (the 9th sign) and the 9th sign is swallowed by the 8th house. Which is why you asked the question in the first place. You, or at least the part of you that Jupiter represents, are what is "frustrating" Venus from perfecting the aspect.

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
But this is similar to the situation I had with the bar exam question, except there it was Venus frustrating the aspect. But I made the hypothesis that a beneficent planet intercepting does not frustrate the harmonious aspect. I will tell you how it goes here.
I don't remember if I looked at your bar exam chart, but one thing I have learned since then is holy wow....the planets don't stand still. I don't think it will matter what planet is frustrating the aspect, because that will tell you what happens next (or in this case what is happening now) but if the aspect does perfect then you have a chart to read. In this chart, once Venus gets past Jupiter the aspect will perfect...and what was it you said?


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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
I'll give it a try and go headfirst—and hope I come out alive.
No kidding.

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
Yeah. And I take back the statement that Jupiter is dignifying Mars via a conjunction because it is not partile.
No, Jupiter is still helping Mars. Assembly, and Mars is still in moiety of the aspect.

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
I will let you know how we get on in the future. If it doesn't pan out initially, the onus of failure will be mine alone, I am sure.
Nope. Read the chart.

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
Thank you T-small for taking the time to go over this with me. I appreciate it!
Lol, I'm like the least versed student to ask.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain

Last edited by tsmall; 07-29-2013 at 01:17 AM.
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