Judging Profession accorrding to Lilly: Learning Astrology

Re: Judging Profession according to Lilly: Learning Astrology

greybeard said:

....William Lilly and his predecessors are not the exclusve property of hidebound traditionalists....

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Nevertheless William Lilly is a Traditional astrologer who had neither information on nor knowledge of the outer planets - therefore he did not incorporate them into any delineations

What is interesting to me about Lilly's technique is that it draws from what was used by earlier Greek and Persian astrologers, which shows a continuity from the ancients all the way up to the "modern" traditional astrologers. From what I can tell (just a newbie student here,) Lilly left out phasis but kept the rest largely intact. Because astrology is an interpretive language/art as well as a science it is, as you say graybeard, necessary to study and apply the methods others have used and then decide for ourselves which way we need to tweak them to be able to produce results.

Looking for praxis, or what one does, in a natal chart is a very good starting point for learning chart interpretation because it is more likely to produce concrete answers that can be verified--as long as we remember that often what one does, or "is" doesn't necessarily correspond to how one makes a living. Just my opinion at any rate.

Re: Judging Profession according to Lilly: Learning Astrology

I explicitly said that in one of my posts...the one that initiated the thread. In two separate entries there I said "disregard Neptune. Lilly didn't have it." and also suggested we must ignore Uranus for the same reason.

William Lilly and his predecessors are not the exclusve property of hidebound traditionalists. They are the foundation on which we more modern, progressive and enlightened astrologers build our edifice.

Re: Judging Profession according to Lilly: Learning Astrology

greybeard said:

I explicitly said that in one of my posts...the one that initiated the thread. In two separate entries there I said "disregard Neptune. Lilly didn't have it." and also suggested we must ignore Uranus for the same reason.

William Lilly and his predecessors are not the exclusve property of hidebound traditionalists. They are the foundation on which we more modern, progressive and enlightened astrologers build our edifice.

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Good idea then to study those 'foundations' in depth

Those 'foundations' nevertheless stand alone as entire edifices that are complete and self contained on their own.

JMO all things 'modern' and/or 'progressive' are not necessarily synonymous with 'enlightened'. Weapons of mass destruction for example are 'modern' and 'progressive' but as to their being 'enlightened'... well that's a matter of opinion of course

Re: Judging Profession according to Lilly: Learning Astrology

Yes, Small. Dr Farr has repeatedly said that "prediction" is the highest expression and proof of astrology. Which means that astrologers should insist on objective confirmation of their work.

I mentioned Lilly's personal orientation toward money, as shown in his chart. If we assume my evaluation is correct, it follows that his orientation will affect everything he does in life, including the professional sphere.

Whether my evaluation is correct or not doesn't matter, because the principle applies to all personal astrology. If the chart shows an over-all inclination toward this or that, that inclination will become a directive or controlling force in all areas of life. That is why it is so important to understand the implications of the chart as a whole before "predicting" profession or love life, or ....

I have not seen a single one of your posts that required any apology for your views. I always look forward to reading what you have to say. Including when you tell me I have botched it.

tsmall said:

Just to point out a couple of things. If we are to use Lily's methods, we must give a nod to his house system. Lilly did not use Placidus houses but rather Regio. I've put the chart up that way. Significant in this change of house systems is that the 2nd house cusp is now at 7* Taurus and change, putting Mercury in the 1st house, his "joy." His effect would still be read in the 2nd, but to consider what that effect will be we need to take his actual position into consideration.

Mercury has no dignity at the MC (Saturn is the term ruler as Mercury--according to Ptolemy's table of dignities..personally I prefer Egyptian, but again Lilly used Ptolemy--gets the degrees of Sagittarius from 14 to 19, but the MC has passed 19 and now is in Saturn's terms.)

Mercury is not peregrine since he is in his own decan or face, granting him at least some essential dignity. He is supported as well by being received by Venus by both domicile and term, with Venus in attendance. Further, Mercury is stationary direct in this chart and rising from the beams. I haven't had a chance to read the complete works of Lilly, but the astrologers he studied (the Persians) considered planets stationing and rising or setting to be of primary importance in the native's life. So, posited in the 1st, with essential dignity, we can see that Mercury already meets the criteria for Rule number one.

Mercury is L8 (often called the house of the occult) and the 3rd (often called the house of the mind.) We seem to be getting somewhere here, but what does Lily himself have to say about Mercury, from whom the Moon in his chart separates by trine?

Here the Moon separates, but I think we can say that in this case Lilly's method works...at least for Lilly.

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tsmall, many thanks for posting the Regiomontanus generated chart - another consideration of course is that since we do not have a definite date for William Lilly's natal chart which is 'rectified by a friend' then it IS possible that for Lilly, the moon may well have been applying to Mercury IF Lilly had indeed actually been born the previous day

Correct me if I'm wrong, the lilly method is more focused on finding the elements of the chart that will yield the greatest success potential. Then one should choose an occupation that will best leverage this asset. The MC/Sun, on the other hand, indicate the area of greatest interest, which might not be the most successful venture for the individual in question.

Success, however, is a subjective. If some one has a good run for 5-10 years at something but it suddenly ends in disappointing failure, was the overall occupation a success or failure? If someone appears to be successful to others but internally feels like a disappointing failure, is it a successful occupation?

Well, one thing-I agree that outer planets (and Lilith) have no place in discussions on the Traditionalist Forum; now, as is well known, I am an enthusiastic advocate of the outers (and even Lilith!), and personally believe their a priori exclusion is a delineative detriment ffor those who refuse to consider them. Nonetheless, they remain "anathema" for our Traditionalist friends (Vedic friends, too) and of course, I refrain from any mention of them when I post on our Traditional Forum.

Lilly? Well, I keep to myself regarding that subject!

You just mentioned them....Shame on you.

greybeard said:

You just mentioned them....Shame on you.

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!!

Oh well!

dr. farr said:

Well, one thing-I agree that outer planets (and Lilith) have no place in discussions on the Traditionalist Forum; now, as is well known, I am an enthusiastic advocate of the outers (and even Lilith!), and personally believe their a priori exclusion is a delineative detriment ffor those who refuse to consider them. Nonetheless, they remain "anathema" for our Traditionalist friends (Vedic friends, too) and of course, I refrain from any mention of them when I post on our Traditional Forum.

Lilly? Well, I keep to myself regarding that subject!

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Well said dr. farr - I concur

dr. farr said:

Historically, remember that prior to his involvement in astrology Lilly was very much involved in ceremonial magic, so much so that he (in some way) over did things and needed a rest of (I think it was) 2 years, in order to recover! It was during that recuperation period that Lilly began his serious investigations into the field of astrology (as seperate from "astrological magic", which was connected with ceremonial magic)
...of course my opinions regarding Lilly (Lilly's approach to astrology) put me at great odds with our Traditionalist friends, so I'll refrain from making any statements regarding what I think of Lilly's "determining the profession" technique...

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Just an idea....why not have a section where modern v traditional, this would ahh solve the 'tension' and indeed would be most interesting to see side by side charts.
Whatdayathink?
..just a thought....but just because the outer planets hadn't been found, doesn't mean they had no effect at the time, these may indeed show Lilly's 'passion', from a modern viewpoint.
U mention Dr Farr about his interest in magic, am I right in thinking this is the domain of the 12th house, ruled by saturn (trad) or uranus (modern).
His 12th house ruler is, oopps, sorry, Lord of 12th is in 11th, modern house of astrology.

Can I ask 'anyone' what house would rule 'astrology' in Traditional astrology?

I cee said:

Can I ask 'anyone' what house would rule 'astrology' in Traditional astrology?

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Traditional significator for astrologers is Mercury http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercury_att.html - 'someone' told me

JUPITERASC said:

Traditional significator for astrologers is Mercury http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercury_att.html - 'someone' told me

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Ahh yes I remember.
So we look to mercury and his/her houses??

Magic is charted in the Sixth, according to the old writers.

I would place astrology in the Ninth. The astrologer is in the 7th.

Mercury rules magic as well as astrology. Mercury rules symbols and symbolic thought, which is why it is concerned with language.

'….Mercury - Nature:

Masculine or feminine, depending upon placement; if in conjunction with a masculine planet, Mercury becomes masculine; if with a feminine, then feminine. By its own nature Mercury is cold and dry, and therefore melancholic. Mercury is adaptable; its influence is beneficial when associated with good planets, malefic when associated with bad planets.

Mercury rules the animal spirit and is the author of subtlety, tricks,
devices, and perjury.....'


'….Mercury - People Signified:

Literary men, philosophers, mathematicians, astrologers, merchants, secretaries, scriveners aka deed writers, diviners, sculptors, poets, orators, advocates, schoolmasters, stationers, printers, exchangers of money, attorneys, ambassadors to emperors, commissioners, clerks, artificers aka skilled craftsmen, designers, generally accomptants aka accomplished persons, experts, solicitors, sometimes thieves, prattling muddy ministers, busy sectaries, and they unlearned; grammarians, tailors, carriers, messengers, footmen, usurers....' http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercury_att.html#6

The type of magic (actually should be with a K, as many occultists will use to distinguish it from tricks and "stage magic") that Lilly was involved with (prior to his taking to astrology) was Western Ceremonial Magic(k), which would be a 9th house area of practice; necromancy (magick utilizing spirits of the dead) would be 8th house affinitive; spells and (so-called) "low magic(k)" would largely be a 12th house affinitive practice.

From ancient times Mercury as been allocated as significator for astrology, other forms of diviniation, Hermetic arts, alchemy, and magic (both "tricks" and "real magick"); Modernists have allocated astrology to Uranus, and I agree that there are decided Uranian qualities involved-still, basically for me, I allocate astrology to Mercury as its primary significator (albeit with Uranus as co-significator)

dr. farr said:

The type of magic (actually should be with a K, as many occultists will use to distinguish it from tricks and "stage magic") that Lilly was involved with (prior to his taking to astrology) was Western Ceremonial Magic(k), which would be a 9th house area of practice; necromancy (magick utilizing spirits of the dead) would be 8th house affinitive; spells and (so-called) "low magic(k)" would largely be a 12th house affinitive practice.

From ancient times Mercury as been allocated as significator for astrology, other forms of diviniation, Hermetic arts, alchemy, and magic (both "tricks" and "real magick"); Moderists have allocated astrology to Uranus, and I agree that there are decided Uranian qualities involved-still, basically for me, I allocate astrology to Mercury as its primary significator (albeit with Uranus as co-significator)

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This is so completely off topic (but hey, we do that sometimes ) Everyone has Mercury, and even Uranus in their charts. For ever and ever, world without end, people have asked what is the signature of an astrologer. dr. farr, Mercury where? And as ruler of what? Uranus how?

Since this is the Traditionalist Forum, I cannot go into Uranus as an astrological significator; however, I can give some information regarding Mercury:
-Mercury strong by sign, house, dignity, possibly conjunct (or parallel) certain fixed stars, in positive aspect to Saturn (starry wisdom), which could also include Parallel;
Mercury (generally dignified) in the 1st, 9th (possibly 10th) house
-Saturn (+ aspected by Mercury) in the 1st or 9th (possibly 10th) house (prior to Modernists introduction of Uranus, Saturn was often considered an important co-factor for expertise in astrology)
-1st, 9th, houses generally strong (using various, mostly now long forgotten methods for delineating the reletavive strenth/prominence of house), and especially if Mercury AND Saturn can each be found in one of these houses (in my own case, I have Mercury in Taurus in the 9th house, Saturn in Virgo in the 1st house)
...and, additionally, certain indications from Vedic astrology (which I also cannot go into here since this is the Traditionalist section, not the Vedic forum)

The above is just a superficial elaboration of the indications for "what might make an astrology expert" as shown in the natal chart...