Bad Relationship With Father

I remember ever since I turned 13, my relationship with my father has been getting so bad. We argue a lot, and come to a lot of disagreements. He thinks I hate him (I don't, but I highly dislike him), and that I'm out to get him or whatever. He says really miserable things and blames everything on me. He hits me and demoralizes me, and does the same with my mother.

I have a hunch that Neptune has something to do with this because it is Square my Sun and Mars (and I've read that causes some issues with the father) and also currently transiting my first house.

I've attached my transit chart and natal chart. I'm curious what indicates these problems from the astrological point of view.

surrealsuburb123 said:

I remember ever since I turned 13, my relationship with my father has been getting so bad. We argue a lot, and come to a lot of disagreements. He thinks I hate him (I don't, but I highly dislike him), and that I'm out to get him or whatever. He says really miserable things and blames everything on me. He hits me and demoralizes me, and does the same with my mother.

I have a hunch that Neptune has something to do with this because it is Square my Sun and Mars (and I've read that causes some issues with the father) and also currently transiting my first house.

I've attached my transit chart and natal chart. I'm curious what indicates these problems from the astrological point of view.

Click to expand...

Hi, Eden.

I am sorry for the difficult relationship you have with your father. Along with reviewing your natal chart, it might shed more light on the matter if you have his birth data and felt comfortable uploading his chart...?

You have Sun conjunct Saturn and I think that aspect denotes tension and difficulty with the father. In general, I think any Sun-Saturn aspect will create a closeness/desire for closeness to the father but there's a certain misunderstanding/coldness that goes along with it.

This was briefly discussed in another thread:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62918

@Ilenek

Along with reviewing your natal chart, it might shed more light on the matter if you have his birth data and felt comfortable uploading his chart...?

Click to expand...

I would, but I don't know the time he was born. I know the rest, but the time. I can't find his birth certificate, and I'm currently not on good enough terms with him at the moment to ask.

I'll upload a chart that excludes the time of his birth, since I don't know.

Is your father working? Does he have a job he likes? Is he getting along well with your mother or is he angry toward everyone? Do you have siblings who live at home? Do you have siblings who don't live at home?
What are your career plans? How do you do in school?
Do you have any extra curricular activities? Take any classes like music or dance?
LIN

Getting a little un-astrological for a moment::: is he actively hitting you? This is completely unnaceptable, and you should not have to take that. Is there anywhere else that you can live?

Do not accept violence from anyone. Call the cops if you have to. I'm quite horrified for you n this moment. I'm sorry you have to go through that.

Thanks for replying milkywaygirl. To answer your questions, I'll start of by saying that, yes, he does actively hit me-- but not as often as he used to. He hit me yesterday and I guess that's why I just wanted to make this thread. There isn't anywhere else I can live, but I'm waiting until I graduate high school because I plan to go to college out of state. I've got 3 more years of this dysfunction I have to take before I'm, hopefully, away.

Do not accept violence from anyone. Call the cops if you have to. I'm quite horrified for you n this moment. I'm sorry you have to go through that.

Click to expand...

I've thought about it, but I'm not sure of the repercussions it will have on the rest of my family. I try to immerse myself in after school activities or coop myself up in my room to avoid him.
Thank you for genuinely caring. Ever since I was a child, I've had a lot of distance (in terms of relationship) with my father. I worry for him, I try to love him, but only because he is my father-- but in other regards, I despise him.

Thank you, Lin, for the reply.

You asked:

Is your father working? Does he have a job he likes? Is he getting along well with your mother or is he angry toward everyone? Do you have siblings who live at home? Do you have siblings who don't live at home?

Click to expand...

I'll answer your questions one-by-one in order.

Yes, my father is still working. He hates his job. He feels that it hinders his ability to express his true "abilities". He was a math teacher for a while (in Ethiopia) before I was born, and he has a degree. But he hasn't had the time or money since he's come to America to finish it.

He's rather fickle. What I mean by that is: he sometimes says the rudest things to her and argues with her and makes her cry. Then he tries to act like nothing happened. When my mom or I try to confront him while he's in this "sane" state, he completely denies everything he said and gets mad all over again. He has this very misanthropic and cynical view on things. He is very popular among his peers and is regarded highly, but he comes and complains at how every adult is stupid and that he's too good for them-- completely opposite to his public persona. He generally hates people, but puts on a good front and pretends to be the "cool guy".

No, and no. I am an only child.

surrealsuburb123 said:

Thanks for replying milkywaygirl. To answer your questions, I'll start of by saying that, yes, he does actively hit me-- but not as often as he used to. He hit me yesterday and I guess that's why I just wanted to make this thread. There isn't anywhere else I can live, but I'm waiting until I graduate high school because I plan to go to college out of state. I've got 3 more years of this dysfunction I have to take before I'm, hopefully, away.

I've thought about it, but I'm not sure of the repercussions it will have on the rest of my family. I try to immerse myself in after school activities or coop myself up in my room to avoid him.
Thank you for genuinely caring. Ever since I was a child, I've had a lot of distance (in terms of relationship) with my father. I worry for him, I try to love him, but only because he is my father-- but in other regards, I despise him.

Click to expand...

You worry about the reprecussions on your family, but how about the reprecussions on you? You're young now, but let me tell you, negative experiences in formative years can have lasting effects in all areas of life, even if you think you can deal with it psychologically/emotionally now. What he is doing is Assault. It's a criminal act. If he hit someone in the street, he would go to jail. In addition, he's beating up on a woman and a child. That is straight up disgusting and cowardly behaviour. You need to stand up for yourself and your mother and stop this abuse.

I understand your compassion for your family, but you need to put yourself first. If you are not in the best shape you can be, you won't be able to help your family on the future, when they really need it.

I really, really encourage you to speak to a trusted teacher or counsellor at your school, and see if you can get some help somehow. If he is hitting you and your mother, he needs to leave your home NOW - no ifs ands or buts about it. Let him go work his demons out somewhere else, alone. You would be doing him a favour - he's never going to resolve whatever his issues are, while continuing to abuse you and your mother.

Feel free to pm me anytime if you need to talk.

@Lin
Your other questions were:

What are your career plans? How do you do in school? Do you have any extra curricular activities? Take any classes like music or dance?

Click to expand...

At the moment I'm planning on majoring in English and international affairs, then taking a year after college to join the Peace Corps. Then, definitely go on to law school. But I guess it's a bit early to finalize anything.

I guess I do fine. I'm an honor student, and usually get mostly A's (with like one or two B's). I try to get involved for volunteering, and then like career related clubs. I've been taking private lessons for a year or so since I play clarinet in the band.

As far as school, my dad is a spaz. I care very much about my academic merits, but I'm not doing it for him. He's very controlling and pressures me. He expects the best, but then deems me as a failure. He freaks out over me getting a B or two on my report card. I just don't like the fact I'm doing anything for anyone for their bragging rights. I understand a parent wants to have pride in their child, but he's just ridiculous. I don't like being pressured ;_;

One of the reasons why I try to work hard in school is to prove to him I'm not a failure-- but not to impress him; rather, to make him shut up.

I think the Pluto in the tenth house conjunct the MC represents the situation.

But also, as may28gemini mentioned, Saturn conjunct Sun, because I definitely have some issues with hims as an "authority figure".

Hi SS123,
The questions I asked were more or less to rule out certain "excuses" men often have for being abusive.
It seems he has no excuses. He is just abusive. It usually runs in families, like Cancer or depression.

You, as the only child (I am in a similar boat...and left home at 18) are IT...with a capital IT. He can go just so far with your mother ... every time he hits YOU it's probably HER he'd like to hit.
Maybe their sex life recently changed.
The job he hates causes him to resent you for being young.

I agree that you should leave as soon as possible, or see a social worker. If you go to social services and because you are a minor, I am sure there would be some help for you.

If you were a stranger and your father hit you it would be considered Assault and Battery and he would go to jail. Keep this in mind when you allow it.

The problem is that if you are hesitant to seek help now, the chances are if you find yourself in a similar situation when married you will be hesitant to seek help or "leave".
Leaving is ALWAYS rough. But guess what? Believe me when I tell you that living on almost nothing in your OWN space where no one is "allowed" to assault you is a tremendously freeing and joyous experience.

You need a practical plan.
Think about it.
LIN

Father's Saturn exactly on your Sun (conj. Saturn, and "under duress" between Saturn and Mars, who has just left his own domicile and entered his detriment). You were born just as your father was going through the peak of his first Saturn return... in Aries, the Fall of Saturn. Thus, you -- in your father's mind -- had a lot to do with his difficulties. It's your fault. Besides, he sees himself in you and doesn't much like himself.

It is time to spread your wings and fly on your own. Education and "family" can be put on the back burner; you are young and have time. Your most important and immediate problem is to end this cruelty so that you can breathe without oppression. Put your fear aside, break your chains of dependence, put your faith in Providence (which will provide everything you need)

For as long as you submit to this cruelty, you are setting yourself up for the same in future relationships. By submitting, you support the evil, create the mentality of a victim. Do NOT seek escape by marriage...stand on your own.

Your chart is full of difficulties. But you have great support from your Venus-Jupiter conjunction, both planets in good essential condition in the First House -- even though square Pluto.

Note that transiting Pluto is now square radical Mercury (who rules the 4th of father and "home")...and Jupiter is square his own place in exile in the 4th.

Life (I call it Providence or God, but the name doesn't matter) always provides us with what we need when we need it. Walk away without fear (very important -- teach yourself to live without fear.) Remember, "Ask and it shall be answered; seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you." Life is an adventure. Step out and see what happens next. And don't forget to smile and say Thank You.

Addendum -- You have nothing to prove to your father. No matter what you do it won't change things. It's time to go on your own and discover who you are.

Wow. You and you father both have Aries Saturn and nearly in the same degree. That's really scary. So I was on the right track when I mentioned about Sun conjunct Saturn...

A key to the relationship between father and daughter will be found in his Saturn on her Sun, paying attention to the sign position in Aries...

Sun in Aries (hers) is Exalted, but her sun is also severely afflicted (under duress, or besieged in superlative) by her own Saturn-Mars pair, with Saturn in Fall and Mars in Exile (detriment), and Mars is lord of the Sun. Mars is not only in detriment, but in exact (within degree) applying square to the 12th house Neptune, a setup that is quite likely to engender self-defeating actions and attitudes.

Following the chain of planetary reltionships, we find that the lord of Mars (Venus), although in the sign of her exaltation and rising strongly (and conjunct her own ruler, Jupiter, who is in domicile -- favorably placed), is conjunct the evil South Node and closely square Pluto.

Meanwhile, Pluto and Moon are in cross-sign conjunction, with Moon in her Fall, with the two planets embracing the Meridian axis (the parental axis)...so the mother too is involved in all of this. The 4th House is ruled by Mercury, and the current transit of Pluto is now, and for some time past and future, in active square to this ruler of the father (and home/family situation generally). This relationship is coming to a head and cannot stand.

I don't like to make "recommendations" or "give advice," but these factors and more, coupled with the inexperienced age of the subject prompt me to say... it is time to strike out on your own. Education and concerns for family unity should be made subservient to freeing herself from this cruelty and oppression. Staying will only promote deeper emotional wounds and accomplish nothing constructive, leaving scars that will affect the rest of her life.

The trick is to create her own life in a way that is positive, and not rush from the frying pan to the fire. Sun first contacts Saturn, then moves to Mars...so we can deduce that the oppression and stifling of Saturn may lead to overly impulsive and rash actions, something to guarded against. We note that Mars, who tends to unconsidered acts, is ruled by Venus, natural ruler of relationships, and she is on the South Node and tightly square Pluto (an aspect that among other things craves very deeply to be loved, but that under this aspect is difficult of realization -- and further hampered by the Mars-Neptune square. Further, the hemmed-in Sun rules the 7th of close relationships, and he is strongly afflicted in impetuous Aries).

So, in my view of this chart, the young lady needs to leave her parental home in the past and find a constructive way to establish herself as an independent and self-reliant adult. To enter into some ill-considered relationship as her ticket out would be folly.

The chart is full of difficulty (the only two things that help -- and they do help tremendously -- are the Venus-Jupiter pair, and the exalted Sun, who has the strength to overcome the many challenges and impediments.) All of the planets are in the East, so she should and must blaze her own path in life. A key to success is the exercise of the personal will; to ride along on the tides of life will lead to shipwreck.

Look at the transits. It is time to set sail and venture off into the unknown. Scary, huh? Well, Columbus set out for the Edge of the World and discovered America. Yes, but I am a woman, you say? Read the life story of Gertrude Bell.

I just want to re-iterate Greybeard's good advice about not using a relationship to get out of your Dad's house. I know a few women with Mars/Saturn aspects who had abusive fathers and then went onto husbands who were abusive (in different ways), and are still with them. This is even more important because you have the afflicted Sun ruling your 7H, and Venus square Pluto.

You could have a healthy, enduring relationship but it won't come to fruition until you are older (AT LEAST Saturn Return), and if you have worked on yourself.

I think it's great that at a young age you realize there is a problem with your situation and are not making excuses for your father, or that you 'owe' him something (negative Saturn). Trust me, you are ahead of a lot of people I know in similar situations.

As the Saturn person your family is going to try to make you the scapegoat. Don't let them. There's also only so much you can do for your mother, harsh but true. She can either see you as the positive example you are now trying to be, or not. That's on her. Use your Saturn discipline and Aries initiative to focus on yourself and your independence (Aries buzzword.)

All of this is harder than it sounds, but remember Saturn rewards hard work.

Based on your Sun you probably don't trust, or expect a lot from, authority figures, but if you could find some sort of counsellor to talk to - even if it's just a few times, or once in awhile (like I said, Aries/Saturn is independent) - to help you figure out exactly how to go about doing this, could be helpful. You could have a good mentor in your life (if you don't already), but you're going to have to actively look for them.

Congratulations on being an Honors Student.

Transit-wise I can see you coming into awareness about the situation because you have both Pluto and Uranus in hard aspect to natal Mercury, the ruler of the 4H.

Uranus brings clarity, not to mention sudden changes (and action! in Aries). Pluto brings depth to these findings, old issues boil up to the surface, and could show an increase of tension at home. Pluto can be permanent changes.

Jupiter in your 4H could actually make it a fortunate time to relocate. You won't end up homeless. If you act on the Uranus-Pluto aspects now chances are you will land on your feet.

Mercury also shows your willingness to talk about it (at least online = Uranus), along with the planets in your 3H on the day you drew the chart.

My only warning is in about a year you will have Saturn going over your Moon,MC/Pluto, so you will probably feel particularly unsupported by your mother and the guilt tripping may dial up considerably. Saturn/Moon transits suck. That will be the real test.

The Saturn transit through the 9H onto the MC is also the typical shift to higher education and a sense of accomplishment. If you keep working hard the way you are now this period could indicate some kind of scholarship or some sort of public recognition (MC) that will get you there.

Hi,

Surrealsuburb, I sincerely hope you are reading every bit of the good advice you have received from everyone on this thread. Seldom does any thread get so much time and detailed attention.

I could not have put it better astrologically and non-astrologically all that has been said on this thread. I do agree with Lin and Greybeard that it may be time for you to stretch your wings and take flight. Personally, why I am repeating this is because I feel there is yet another hidden message in that choice of leaving more than just saving yourself from your father's pain-caused-punishment. A parent-child bond is inexplicable beyond words and unbreakable, no matter what the circumstances throw one's way. Often, though, circumstances provoke us to take actions that we most likely regret 20 years hence, when too much has been spoilt already. To guard and maintain that bond becomes the duty of both, yes, both, in different ways and measure. If you left the present oppressive environment, you give both parties (parents and yourself) the chance to save that bond. Distance provides the necessary space and perspective sometimes. Distance may make it easier for you to (emotionally) return to your father/parents in good stead, and for him/them to make peace with their own past and pain, and accept you as their 'present' and future. If possible (and, IMO, it is more-than-often is possible), the objective should be to not kill that bond. I know that to some I may come across as deterministic and even, in a way, defending the father. Nonetheless, this is what I truly feel and would like to share.

Astrologically speaking, what I strongly feel is that, if the likes of Saturn (and the outer planets) are harsh in a natal chart, it is because we were meant to learn certain lessons, and thus to grow. I always treat the inner planets as us and the outers as what life throws our way - through aspects - in our natal chart. The father in this case, or the mother, or the husband in another, are all just the doers, if you so will, carrying out the path Saturn already has in mind to pave for us. It is not because Saturn likes me less and someone else more, but because I have more of a 'back-log' to take care of, and, honestly, otherwise, wouldn't we all simply want to cakewalk through life, but life is not just Jupiter and Venus (and they are always kind either).

AQ7

Hi surreal. I don't think I have anything astrological that I can add to the already superb posts. While I agree with the fact that you need to leave, I also realize you are only 15 and striking out on your own probably isn't an option for you. Is there any supportive, stable family that you could move in with, at least until you graduate high school? In the mean time, I would also continue to concentrate on your school and apply for scholarships and financial aid for college. Imo, in the long run, this is the ticket to a successful and independent adulthood. If there isn't family to let you stay with them, there are halfway house s for youths. It wouldn't be easy or fun but they would help you achieve your long-term goal of attending a university and even give you support with counseling. Anyways, I wish you the best.

I agree with Aquarius7000 that the bond to a parent is unbreakable, but not necessarily in the sense that at some point in time there may be an amicable recociliation (in the case where cruelty, neglect and such things play a major role). Whether or not there is a reconciliation, the simple fact remains that our parents live on within us throughout our lives.

The observation that distance may permit a future reconciliation is certainly on target. Such a reunion is desirable. It is not always possible. There always exists a chasm between parent and child that is unbridgeable, whether or not the relationship is amicable. It is the child's duty and destiny to live their own independent life.

I didn't realize this girl is only 15. My eyes are failing, and I thought she was 17. Even so, it seems to me that "the stars" are calling on her to explore her options now. In Latin American cultures, when a girl reaches 15 she is given a quinceanera, which is a rite of passage, recognition that she has attained to womanhood.

I can not even begin to express my thanks for everyone. This is the best advice I could get, and at first, I was a bit apprehensive of making this thread, but EVERYTHING everyone has said I've kept re-reading and really putting into my head because I realize this is a very pivotal time. Thank you dearly for your input.

I wasn't able to reply yesterday because something happened again. I saw the replies at night and I was speechless because of how on point they were.

I'll briefly explain what happened yesterday because I feel it is important. I have been ignoring my father for a couple of days, and he has been very frustrated wit that. Yesterday, he confronted me about the current situation, and I felt bullied. He didn't hit me, but I was just so frustrated with how he tried to justify his actions and make excuses, and blamed it all on me. I'll admit that I argue with him a lot, and that provokes him. I try not to, but I believe he is unfair and provokes me, so it's difficult for me to keep my mouth shut or whatever. But he yelled at me for challenging him, even though I haven't spoken a word to him. I was tired of the fighting, so I just didn't speak a word so I could avoid any trouble, but that seemed to have made it worse. I hate how cares about me to the point where he takes ridiculous actions because he thinks he is helping me. He said he is trying to help and I said that yelling and bullying isn't solving anything, and he was enraged. He's always in denial.

It's really eerie how everything greybeard, and BlueEyedgirl mentioned was exactly on point.

I think I should also mention my mother, because she ties in to what happened yesterday. I definitely have many problems with her. But, I can connect more with her, even though she upsets me. She is very afraid of my dad, even though she also challenges him and argues with him. She came to me (after my dad threw his stupid tantrum and went off to another room) and said that he "threatened her" with a divorce and that he said that he was tired of the both of us. She said this with tears in her eyes and I was confused. We both need to get away from him, but she put it in another perspective. She explained that if he left and sold the house, we wouldn't have anywhere else to go but back to our home country. She couldn't afford to hold up a means of living on her own, and that would be affecting my future plans. She told me to apologize to him for making him mad, and say I was wrong and I deserved to be hit. She also mentioned how I would be the reason for the divorce. I was enraged. I am only a 15 year old and she is the adult. She doesn't seem to care about my safety at all, and is just as much a coward as my dad is in that regard. She lives her whole life afraid of him, but she doesn't tell ANYONE about this-- not even her own mother. This is the first time I've ever seen him hit her, and I know he doesn't regularly hit her, but mostly takes it out on me. I told her that I'm the child, and they are the adults, and that I don't deserve to take the blame for anything. I don't feel it's fair, and I'm really frustrated. And I know that she lied. He never mentioned a divorce. I was listening to their whole conversation, pretending to be asleep. I'm not sure what her motive is. I read all your replies and everyone, of course, is exactly right. I am the outlet for their marital problems. They claim they "care", but really they're trying to make me feel guilty. I'll admit, I can have deviant behavior, but I don't think it's right they're blaming anything on me.

This has been a crazy week and, like I mentioned, when greybeard and BluEyedGrl explained the astrological factors, my jaw dropped. This situation has been boiling up these past few week and I feel like there will be some serious changes (for the better or worse). But I am willing to learn Saturn's lesson.