Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Other Astrology

Other Astrology Here, you can discuss anything else astrological that doesn't belong in the other boards. Includes medical astrology, mundane astrology, parts, sports astrology, research and development, degree symbols, fixed stars, asteroids, symbols systems, karma, and Aquarian astrology.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #676  
Unread 04-09-2020, 02:02 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 28,179
Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
I give apologies whenever I think I should. Oddly enough, apologetics, rarely acknowledge them.
That's why I referred to it as a debate, rather than a discussion.

Reply With Quote
  #677  
Unread 04-09-2020, 05:18 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Do you celebrate Easter, Peto? If so, then happy Easter!
I wouldn't use that word for the Pascha, because apparently it might be related to a foreign goddess.

I don't really follow days - Col. 2:16, but if I were to, I would be a Quartodeciman.

''All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven.'' - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250105.htm
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
david starling (04-09-2020)
  #678  
Unread 04-09-2020, 05:20 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Of course you're wanted! Disagreed with, perhaps, but definitely wanted. Thanks to you I've done more Bible reading for this thread than I had for a long time. That's good, right? Call me masochistic, but I am fine with a debate that gets me thinking, just so long as it stays civil.
I agree.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
waybread (04-09-2020)
  #679  
Unread 04-09-2020, 05:24 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
I give apologies whenever I think I should. Oddly enough, apologetics, rarely acknowledge them.
Apology means a speech in defense, and the Christian apology is to be given with ''gentleness and respect'' - 1 Pet. 3:15
Reply With Quote
  #680  
Unread 04-09-2020, 08:38 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 16,278
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

So Petosiris-- or anybody: From my recent post:

Quote:
Where's Petosiris? I miss you already!

Hope you (and everyone else on this thread) is staying healthy.

Speaking of gender, probably we've all heard the expression, "God is love." (1 John 4:8)

Love in French "l'amour" is masculine. An irregular noun, it is feminine in the plural.

"Amore" in Italian is masculine.

Love in German, "Liebe" is feminine.

In Hebrew, how you say, "I love you" depends upon your gender, and the gender of the person to whom you are speaking. The noun "ahava" is feminine.

In Greek, "God is love," Θεός είναι αγάπη Theós eínai agápi uses a feminine word (agape, in English, connoting reverence.

In English "love" is neuter.
If I John 4:8 is correct, then God is not strictly masculine.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to waybread For This Useful Post:
Opal (04-10-2020)
  #681  
Unread 04-09-2020, 08:44 PM
leomoon's Avatar
leomoon leomoon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,796
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
So Petosiris-- or anybody: From my recent post:



If I John 4:8 is correct, then God is not strictly masculine.

Very nice connections you made to "Love"...and "God".


I agree, love is gender neutral. So is God in my opinion. Energy is for all without conditions.


somewhere the bible states, "And he (she - it, whatever) makes it to rain on the just and unjust alike"


The writers of these works, whether accuracy counted or not, were patriarchal in their natures weren't they?



Regarding love your enemies: -= in Matthew 5:45 Jesus gives two practical examples. “He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to leomoon For This Useful Post:
Opal (04-10-2020), waybread (04-09-2020)
  #682  
Unread 04-09-2020, 08:57 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Waybread, I've never argued that God is strictly masculine. Furthermore I already mentioned the maternal imagery in Isaiah, and God's ''steadfast mercy, patience, love and compassion, which are qualities that we adore in exemplar women'' - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...&postcount=158

I have been thinking about corporeality of spirits the past few days, and I think it is safe to say that the living God doesn't have a body. We have to understand masculinity and feminity in purely mental terms.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
leomoon (04-09-2020)
  #683  
Unread 04-09-2020, 09:31 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

deleted on waybread's request - https://contramodalism.com/letter-of...ishop-ulfilas/



He also says that Urphilas brought over as settlers to the Roman territory a large body of persons who had been driven out of their ancient abodes for the sake of their religion... This multitude of converts were located by the emperor in the different parts of Moesia, as he thought best, and he held Urphilas himself in such high honour, that he would often speak of him in conversation as the Moses of his day. Philostorgius is loud in his praises of this Urphilas ; and asserts that both he and the Goths who were under his spiritual rule, were followers of his own heretical opinions. - see 2.5 of the Epitome of Philostorgius's history http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/philostorgius.htm

This is verifiably true, since for centuries the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Burgundians and Vandals were Homoian Christians, and parts of the Gothic Bible are still extant.

Now, if such massive migration and exodus of the people of Ulfilas is possible, why wouldn't it be possible with the people of Moses?

Last edited by petosiris; 04-09-2020 at 10:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #684  
Unread 04-09-2020, 09:43 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 16,278
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Petosiris, this site's rules prohibit excerpting long passages of text due to copyright regulations. Can you paraphrase what you just posted or just give us the links?

Just who is your long passage about-- which Christian saint?
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #685  
Unread 04-09-2020, 09:52 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Petosiris, this site's rules prohibit excerpting long passages of text due to copyright regulations. Can you paraphrase what you just posted or just give us the links?

Just who is your long passage about-- which Christian saint?
This is just Wulfila. He wasn't a Trinitarian, otherwise he would be St. Wulfila.
Reply With Quote
  #686  
Unread 04-10-2020, 02:30 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 16,278
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Major migrations are known throughout history. Archaeologists usually hope to find evidence of them, which sometimes just isn't there. Supposedly the Goths originated in Gotland (Gothland) of Sweden and were part of a larger movement of northern Europeans into the Roman empire during its waning years.

To classicists, this was the lamented fall of the Roman empire and beginning of the Dark Ages. Germanic history reads a lot differently, explaining that the Teutonic invasions were a population migration of noble forest folk, maintaining their independence from evil Roman colonialists.

While a migration of people out of Egypt seems entirely possible, there is the slight matter of them crossing the Red Sea without getting their feet wet.

Good thinking on the topic of the gender of God. I think that because ancient gods were typically modeled after human rulers long prior to the emergence of Judaism (like in Sumer), Jewish scribes had no problem in describing God in human terms.

But I think that humans are gendered beings, so we naturally think in these terms. I cannot imagine God being so circumscribed.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #687  
Unread 04-10-2020, 05:50 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 28,179
Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhnikola View Post
Someone posted this question up somewhere before. God is definitely transgender and it's no coincidence that more and more people are moving towards transgenderism and are receiving less and less negative responses for it as the world continues to wrap its head around the idea. I mean, it's not like they're actively persuading the world to accept them anymore, they just do. Maybe...subconsiously, they have understanding that their God is more like transgenders as compared to either a man or a woman alone. Plus, not only are those transitioning people making sacrifices to become what they want to be, but they're also generating a society more full of acceptance than before. They say that God intentionally sacrificed so much about himself to reach his fullest potential of who he understood himself to be.
Who did the surgery on God? And, was it about changing from female to male, or vice versa?
Reply With Quote
  #688  
Unread 04-10-2020, 06:03 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 28,179
Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhnikola View Post
God did the surgery on himself and left us with the knowledge and tools for it to be a practice. Maybe God went back and forth between genders? Who knows!
Kronos/Saturn did the surgery on Uranus!
Reply With Quote
  #689  
Unread 04-10-2020, 06:09 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 28,179
Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Maybe God is a "Hermaphrodite" !

Both a "He" AND a "She", all in One!

Last edited by david starling; 04-10-2020 at 10:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #690  
Unread 04-10-2020, 12:30 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Maybe God is a "Hermaphrodite" !

Both a "He" AND a "She", all in One!
''For some declare him [the Ogdoad] to be without a consort, and neither male nor female, and, in fact, nothing at all; while others affirm him to be masculo-feminine, assigning to him the nature of a hermaphrodite; others, again, allot Sige to him as a spouse, that thus may be formed the first conjunction.''... - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103111.htm

That is not a new idea. Brother Irenaeus gives the possibility that the Gnostics' god is a cucumber.

''There is a certain Proarche, royal, surpassing all thought, a power existing before every other substance, and extended into space in every direction. But along with it there exists a power which I term a Gourd; and along with this Gourd there exists a power which again I term Utter-Emptiness. This Gourd and Emptiness, since they are one, produced (and yet did not simply produce, so as to be apart from themselves) a fruit, everywhere visible, eatable, and delicious, which fruit-language calls a Cucumber. Along with this Cucumber exists a power of the same essence, which again I call a Melon. These powers, the Gourd, Utter-Emptiness, the Cucumber, and the Melon, brought forth the remaining multitude of the delirious melons of Valentinus...'' - ibid.
Reply With Quote
  #691  
Unread 04-10-2020, 09:00 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 16,278
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Yikes.

I think you guys have been shut up at home too long.

Petosiris, I hope this Good Friday is especially meaningful to you.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #692  
Unread 04-10-2020, 09:25 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Yikes.

I think you guys have been shut up at home too long.

Petosiris, I hope this Good Friday is especially meaningful to you.
Waybread, Christ was crucified on the date two days ago. I follow neither the eastern nor the western computus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I wouldn't use that word for the Pascha, because apparently it might be related to a foreign goddess.

I don't really follow days - Col. 2:16, but if I were to, I would be a Quartodeciman.

''All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven.'' - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250105.htm
I hope that the quarantine preserves your health as the Scripture preserves your soul.
Reply With Quote
  #693  
Unread 04-11-2020, 03:31 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 16,278
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Thank you.

Then is April 12 Easter Sunday for you?

Easter does seem to be a modification of earlier pagan equinox holidays. The name does sound like Ishtar, the Near Eastern planetary goddess Venus. (Cf. the biblical book of Esther.)

Eostre (Ostara) was a pagan Germanic goddess associated with spring.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #694  
Unread 04-11-2020, 03:34 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 28,179
Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Thank you.

Then is April 12 Easter Sunday for you?

Easter does seem to be a modification of earlier pagan equinox holidays. The name does sound like Ishtar, the Near Eastern planetary goddess Venus. (Cf. the biblical book of Esther.)

Eostre (Ostara) was a pagan Germanic goddess associated with spring.
Peto is probably busy painting Easter eggs!
Reply With Quote
  #695  
Unread 04-11-2020, 03:43 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 16,278
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Peto is probably busy painting Easter eggs!
A fertility symbol of pagan origin.

Maybe not.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to waybread For This Useful Post:
petosiris (04-11-2020)
  #696  
Unread 04-11-2020, 05:30 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 28,179
Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
A fertility symbol of pagan origin.

Maybe not.
From VERY ancient times, when rabbits still laid eggs.
Reply With Quote
  #697  
Unread 04-11-2020, 09:17 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Thank you.

Then is April 12 Easter Sunday for you?
The mystery of the resurrection in the ancient eastern churches was always observed on the date of the crucifixion/date when the leaven is put away/date when the lambs were slaughtered before sunset regardless of the day of the week - see the above quote from Polycarp. (This is why the resurrection is still called ''Pascha'' in Catholic and Orthodox tradition.) They communicated with Jews for the calendar well into the 4th century, because John ''Chrysostom'' wrote against Christians who join the Jews in their festivals, incorrectly associating them with the ''Judaizers'' of the NT.

Christ died for the sins of the world, but if he wasn't raised on the third day and if he didn't enter the heavenly temple made without hands as a high priest after 40 days, we would still be in our sins - 1 Cor. 15; Hebr. 9. Because of his obedience to God and servitude of man even to death on a cross, God highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father - Phil 2. We can observe, therefore, that the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus are related and not as distinct in meaning as for example the baptism by fire on the day of the Pentecost/Shavuot.

I highly doubt that the apostles and their disciples invented new festivals, rather than observing the festivals of the Law in light of their fulfilled symbolic and prophetic meaning.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-11-2020 at 10:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #698  
Unread 04-11-2020, 01:37 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,524
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
How many theologians can dance on the head of a pin?
It depends, are they corporeal or incorporeal?

Waybread, do you think angels are corporeal or do you think they are incorporeal like God? I am asking unironically. It is hard for me to imagine a circumscribed thing as absolutely incorporeal.

After reading some books on the subject of dualism, I thought I had fully grasped and accepted the idea and arguments of created incorporeal souls and spirits. But then I thought about people taken into heaven alive with their bodies in the Scriptures. How is heaven incorporeal, if the alive bodies of Jesus, Elijah, Enoch and Moses are there? If the heavens, the throne and the angels are corporeal, this seems to suggest that all created souls and spirits are in some sense corporeal (all of creation occupying some kind of space and time, as if it is circumscribed by it), no? I hope you can help me answer these questions.

Grace be with you.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-11-2020 at 02:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #699  
Unread 04-11-2020, 10:15 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 16,278
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

And with thy spirit!

Petosiris, I have a lot of respect for people's religious beliefs unless they actually harm someone (like the Spanish inquisition, witch burnings, and the Crusades.) I have a lot of interest in the history of western religions.

But my perspective is one of a student of comparative religion, not as someone who thinks everything in a faith's sacred scriptures are objectively real. The Bible often speaks to us in metaphors, allegory, parables, and occasionally even riddles. I think St. Augustine said this (I confess, I got him confused with someone else a while back, possibly Irenaeus on the need to read the Bible literally, vs. through the Gnostic inner experience.)

Angels have had a long and interesting history. The Biblical "heavenly host" apparently meant "host" in the sense of a large army. This makes angels akin to soldiers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_host Apparently the angels of the heavenly host were equated to the stars ( Genesis 2:1 Deuteronomy 4:19.) due to a slight problem that if everything were created in the 6th days of Genesis, where would the angels come in, if separate entities?)

In the Bible, occasionally one of them takes on a human form (Joshua 5:13-15.)

Then we've got cherubim and seraphim.

I just see too many parallels between Jewish & Christian heavenly beings and the lore of older civilization, some of them ancestral to Judaism, to think that the J-C angels were not simply part of an ambient Near Eastern lore that nobody much questioned or criticized. Why the wings? Makes sense for sky-dwelling beings?? There's some ecology here, too, where the high-flying vulture-- sacred in ancient Egypt-- literally conducted the dead to whatever afterlife awaited them (Cf. Zoroastrian towers of silence.)

Today, however, we understand stars to be giant balls of burning gases. Human-like winged creatures seem imaginative, not literal.

Metaphorically, the idea of religious leaders (like Elijah, in Jewish belief) taken up to heaven without their bodies literally dying may simply point to something indestructible about their message to humanity.

(In the Bible Moses died a physical death, but the location of his burial is unknown. This was probably to prevent the Israelites from worshiping at his tomb.)

If you want to get dualistic about it, I'd vote on the side of the Christian heaven being uncorporeal. Put differently, it exists in Christian minds, hearts, belief, traditions, and imagery. But is dualism even the way to go here?

Hag sameach (a joyful holiday to you.)
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #700  
Unread 04-13-2020, 04:13 PM
leomoon's Avatar
leomoon leomoon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,796
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

A modern day miracle - building a rock hewn church altar in an area known as Trash City in a section Cairo - where Coptic Christians live:


https://www.samaanchurch.com/en/about-us


The story of how the church came to be, starts here and continues on another page:



https://www.samaanchurch.com/en/home


At the very top of the page, there are brown dots, and each dot takes you along the scrolling images of the gorgeous carvings done over the years. You can click the dots yourself to move to the next image...
https://www.samaanchurch.com/en/home
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
existence, gender, human

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.