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  #601  
Unread 04-04-2020, 02:32 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Problem is, its very possibly a forgery. Gnostic groups didn't all get along with each other and there were many., so forgeries were prevelant too. One trying to do in the other possibly.,


As my mother use to say, "People, what good are they?"


Always one trying to one up the other, never ending. Egos I suppose. Apparently not a forgery in the sense we think of them however, the ink fits with the time period of the others. I mean more like one group trying to do in the other?



https://www.livescience.com/28506-go...henticity.html



Quote:
The study of Egyptian marriage certificates and land documents from the Louvre proved to be the clincher.That study found that contracts in Egypt in the mid-third century were written in lamp black ink, in the traditional Egyptian style. But they were officially registered in the traditional Greek style, using brown iron gall ink.
OR, who knows, maybe he was set up....and was the smartest of all, as portrayed in Jesus Christ Superstar, ... from the Judas song, "And you knew it all the time!"




I saw this original one with the same actors in 1971, just before we married in Baltimore: Still have the ticket stubs



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqoeM18vCaU



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo


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A really intriguing Gnostic gospel in this regard is the Gospel of Judas, edited by Gnostic scholars Elaine Pagels and Karen King. According to this text, Judas actually understood what Jesus was asking of him, and was willing to go down in infamy for generations in order to assist his Master to complete his destiny as human sacrifice. The "betrayal" of Judas was actually his own supreme sacrifice so that Jesus' beliefs about his unique destiny could be fulfilled.
Besides Gospel of Thomas, my favorite is probably the Gospel of Mary, although they don't have much of it left ....Karen King & Pagels both wrote about it and I think I have it on my bookshelf, I'll need to check.


Last edited by leomoon; 04-04-2020 at 02:43 AM.
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  #602  
Unread 04-04-2020, 02:37 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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This is a horrible calumny.
This is the truth and I explained why. All of the Apostles (who were Jews) themselves admit it. We will have to disagree if you don't accept our arguments and reasoning. I don't believe any court in the world will judge that in a proxy murder, only the proxy is a murderer.

I said to david a couple weeks ago:

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The Romans (lawless men) were the hands of the Jews according to Peter in Acts by Luke. James the brother of Jesus died from stoning by Jews themselves. Crucifixion obviously isn't a Jewish method of execution. Yes, Gentiles were involved in the murder of the Christ.

Do you think that if you say that the Jews killed Yeshua and Yaakov - Jewish brothers from the tribe of Judah, a fact recorded by the gospel writers Mattiyahu and Yohanan, and concerning the latter recorded by the historian Yosef ben Matityahu, you might sound antisemitic? Is the left that brainwashy?
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A really intriguing Gnostic gospel in this regard is the Gospel of Judas, edited by Gnostic scholars Elaine Pagels and Karen King. According to this text, Judas actually understood what Jesus was asking of him, and was willing to go down in infamy for generations in order to assist his Master to complete his destiny as human sacrifice. The "betrayal" of Judas was actually his own supreme sacrifice so that Jesus' beliefs about his unique destiny could be fulfilled.
A late 2nd century forgery that was rejected by the Christians has no meaning for me and doesn't interest me. All the 1st century accounts of the gospels say that Judas betrayed Jesus for money and later regretted it to the point of suicide.

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Is there ever a "moral justification" for praying for anyone's destruction??

God does not want the death of the sinner. He wants the sinner to repent. Ezekiel 18:23. Micah 7:18
''Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven'' - Gen. 19:24

"But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you'' - Deut. 20:17

''This is what the Lord Almighty says: I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'' - 1 Sam. 15:2-3

These people were somehow not willing to repent, just as people for condemnation would not be willing to repent at the judgement, but will be judged solely according to their deeds in the present age.

So there is moral justification for destroying someone, and Jesus himself will destroy multitudes of people and demons in the lake of fire with torment according to their deeds after he defeats all his enemies in his world war with his army of saints and angels. The Scriptures speak more frequently about the wrath of God than the love of God, and there are reasons for this, the chief of which is moral rectitude, that is divine righteousness.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-04-2020 at 03:40 AM.
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  #603  
Unread 04-04-2020, 02:50 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

You are using the loaded antisemitic label at me so frequently for perfectly innocuous statements that it is a parody at this point. All of this while being part of a group that curses Christians do be destroyed in a moment and for their names to be blotted from the book of life.

''Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.'' - Matthew 7:3-5

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  #604  
Unread 04-04-2020, 02:52 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Here is the correct clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3F-vcQrk-A


"I've been used, and you knew all along" "You have murdered me" cried out Judas before he hung himself....




Jesus ascends but Judas still doesn't get it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvVr2uks0C8


Age of the 50 or so Gnostic Gospels?
Question:

When were the Gnostic Gospels written?


https://www.livescience.com/28506-go...henticity.html

Gnostic Gospels:

The Gnostic Gospels were a collection of "secret" religious texts found in the desert of Egypt in the mid 19th century. They document some of Jesus's conversations and teachings, as well as provide alternative tellings of famous bible stories like Adam and Eve.


https://study.com/academy/answer/whe...s-written.html

There is a huge debate about when the Gnostic Gospels were written. Some say that they were heretical texts and therefore must have been written after the 4 Gospels, meaning sometime between 60-100 AD. Others are convinced they contain traditions that are older than the Gospels and were written around 50 AD. Dating of the papyrus and leather bindings puts the date around 300-400 AD, though there have been other historical writings that have referenced them in circulation by 180 AD.

Last edited by leomoon; 04-04-2020 at 03:00 AM.
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  #605  
Unread 04-04-2020, 03:47 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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It doesn't really matter since you are part of the group. Maybe there were some friends of Jews in the NSDAP, just as there are friends of Christians among Rabbinic Jews, but the party policy is clearly extermination in a moment - ''Let the noẓerim and the minim be destroyed in a moment. And let them be blotted out of the Book of Life and not be inscribed together with the righteous.'' - https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/birkat-ha-minim

Is this not anti-Christian?
Petosiris, with respect, are you anti-Semitic? Do you actually know the history of German anti-Semitism and the Holocaust?

I've explained to you, as your link surely does, that the ancient prayer against Christians apostates has not been part of the mainstream Jewish liturgy for centuries. If you don't believe me, please phone or email some rabbis in your area and ask for their explanations. I'm very serious about your speaking to knowledgeable Jewish people in your area, since you avoid taking my word for it.

I don't think you actually know any Jews with whom you can discuss their faith. Your "information" comes from age-old religious tensions that surely has no place among people of good will today.

You have a kind of anachronistic reading of Christian belief backward into Jewish texts written centuries before the birth of Jesus. Although this isn't unusual for fundamentalist Christians, it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

If you are trying to arm-wrestle me into a position of hating Christians, this would be laughable if it weren't so repugnant. Truly, you do not know me.

Personally, I have read the NT several times over in its entirety, starting when I was 13. Not to mention many subsequent referrals to specific themes and passages. I view Jesus as a wise teacher, and proponent of a stringent code of personal ethics that few Christians actually follow. Do you follow it? Have you given up all of your belongings?

I grew up in an American family parented by "free thinkers." Their parents and grandparents went through several changes of Christian denominations in Europe and the U. S., ranging from Dutch Reform (Calvinist) to Lutheran to Catholic to Methodist, and simply lapsed--whatever. As a kid who wasn't baptized, my parents nonetheless agreed that I could attend Sunday school at the invitation of a neighborhood friend whose family were Congregationalists. I did this for several years. It's where I got my first Bible. When my neighbours switched to the Episcopalian (Anglican) church, I went to an Episcopalian summer camp for a couple of summers.

In high school and college, I was attracted to the Quakers (Society of Friends.) I attended some of their services in the city where I grew up. None of the members of the "meeting" that I attended evinced the slightest interest in converting me or having me attend, so I let it drop.

As an adult I also spent a lot of time as an adult in a community with many members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I learned a lot about their faith. We got along fine. Late in life my husband reunited with a long-lost half-brother who was a Catholic priest. We had several family reunions in Germany and Canada, and I attended several Catholic services that this brother conducted. He was a very saintly man IMO, who put his belief into his mission.

I met my Jewish ex husband at age 22, and converted shortly before our marriage when I was 24. We were married for 20 years, and active in the Conservative/Reform Jewish community for most of that time. We spent an academic year in Israel. We sent our two children to Jewish Sunday school. When we separated and divorced ca. 1994 I became inactive in Judaism, a situation that I maintain through today. However, I have never forsworn it As adults my children also chose to be inactive in the Jewish faith.

I will honestly say that I never in 20 years heard vile anti-Christian statements by any Jewish people. Yes, there were a few low-order slurs. (You are familiar with the expression "goy" or goyim.) I never heard anyone curse Christians, and it was certainly never a part of any worship service I attended.

Petosiris, you are struggling to understand Jewish history and Judaism today, in light of the Christianity in which you believe.

I am here to help, if you will let me.
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  #606  
Unread 04-04-2020, 04:03 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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God predestined it to happen through someone, the Jews entered the plan by their own free will. - Matthew 27:25
This is the stuff of the old Christian disputations with the Jews. Of course, Jews don't accept this material as scriptural.

But the response that I once heard a Jewish scholar give, is something like the one that David is giving and that I mentioned above. No crucifixion, no sudden untimely death of Jesus. No ignoble death of Jesus, no one-time sacrifice for your sins. No untimely death of Jesus, no Resurrection and promise of eternal life.

I don't mean to blaspheme, but given these foundational tenets of Christianity, shouldn't Christians actually thank the Jews for putting into motion this cornerstone of their faith?

Suppose Jesus had lived a long life and died of natural causes?
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  #607  
Unread 04-04-2020, 04:05 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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This is the stuff of the old Christian disputations with the Jews. Of course, Jews don't accept this material as scriptural.

But the response that I once heard a Jewish scholar give, is something like the one that David is giving and that I mentioned above. No crucifixion, no sudden untimely death of Jesus. No ignoble death of Jesus, no one-time sacrifice for your sins. No untimely death of Jesus, no Resurrection and promise of eternal life.

I don't mean to blaspheme, but given these foundational tenets of Christianity, shouldn't Christians actually thank the Jews for putting into motion this cornerstone of their faith?

Suppose Jesus had lived a long life and died of natural causes?
Explain this with Satan to Jesus at judgement day. I don't want to hear any more of this, and yes I consider it blasphemous.
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  #608  
Unread 04-04-2020, 04:10 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Because there were 173880 days from Nehemiah 2:1-8 to the cutting off of an anointed after which for 40 days the Jews did not repent (Daniel 9:24-26, Jonah 3) and the ribbon did not turn white, according to their own tradition. Soon the antichrist will make a covenant with the Jews for 2550 days, and for the last 1290 days of these he will proclaim himself God in the temple and demand worship, until the stone cut without human hands returns and kills him with the breath of his mouth and the divine glory of his coming (Daniel 9:27). The Jews themselves will be disappointed during the 3 1/2 years and accept Jesus as Christ. 45 days is probably the time for judgement in Daniel 12.
Oh, great. Now Jews are supposed to make a covenant with the anti-Christ? Who is this, exactly?

What's Plan B? Throughout the Jewish Bible, there is always the offer of repentance, with the opportunity to embrace the merciful God.

A wonderful Jewish concept is t'shuvah, "returning" or repentance leading to a loving relationship with God.
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  #609  
Unread 04-04-2020, 04:17 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Petosiris, with respect, are you anti-Semitic?
By default I can't be racial anti-Semite since I acknowledge only Jews as prophets and apostles, and a Jew from the tribe of Judah as my Lord and Savior. You probably mean that I am somehow a religious anti-Semite. I am not, and I don't believe I have said anything which can be misconstrued in that way. I disagree with some claims of Rabbinic Judaism just as I disagree with most claims of Eastern religions or Roman Catholicism. I can't hate Jews since I said I wanted to be part of the Jewish nation in the kingdom according to the Jewish scriptures - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...&postcount=312

While I don't confess saying anything wrong against the Jewish nation, I myself repented for the Christian antisemitism of past ages - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ostcount=10350 , which is a collective sin, just as I urge the Jewish nation to repent for the persecution and murder of the Christ and the Nazarenes, for their repentance would mean the resurrection of the dead and the arrival of the kingdom according to the apostle Shaul - Romans 11:15 (For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?) and Yeshua himself - Matthew 23:39 (For I say to you, from now on you will not see me until you say, ''Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'').

Last edited by petosiris; 04-04-2020 at 04:29 AM.
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  #610  
Unread 04-04-2020, 04:20 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Very funny Satan

You will not escape the fire
Sounds like the Devil citing Scripture!
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  #611  
Unread 04-04-2020, 04:38 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Sounds like the Devil citing Scripture!
Yeah like ''throw yourself down'' for it is written, ''He will command his angels concerning you'' and ''On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'' Jesus answered him, ''It is also written: Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'' - Matthew 4:6-7. Jesus also knows all the scriptures about the sinfulness of murder and that God never tempts anyone so he will reply in the exact same way to his murderers and their supporters at his righteous judgement. He will also judge your vain and blasphemous talk about his trial on account of the scriptures.

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  #612  
Unread 04-04-2020, 04:41 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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God doesn't harden hearts, blind eyes or give people to Satan as some may think, that is - without reference to their previous choices.
What about God hardening the pharaoh's heart in the 10 plagues of Exodus? Granted, the pharaoh was perfectly nasty in his treatment of his Jewish slaves, but he mostly serves as a foil against which God's authority can be registered. God Himself "hardens" the pharaoh's heart in Exodus 7:3. In 7:4, God says that the pharaoh will not listen to Him. (Also Exodus 9:12, 10:20. 10:27.)

When God determined to harden the pharaoh's heart, what choice did the pharaoh he have?
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  #613  
Unread 04-04-2020, 04:55 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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What about God hardening the pharaoh's heart in the 10 plagues of Exodus? Granted, the pharaoh was perfectly nasty in his treatment of his Jewish slaves, but he mostly serves as a foil against which God's authority can be registered. God Himself "hardens" the pharaoh's heart in Exodus 7:3. In 7:4, God says that the pharaoh will not listen to Him. (Also Exodus 9:12, 10:20. 10:27.)

When God determined to harden the pharaoh's heart, what choice did the pharaoh he have?
I personally agree with your teachers about free will and I deny the myth of original sin (which most Christians accept). ''I grant that God does sometimes so reject from his grace certain wicked men, not before their birth, but after they had merited this by their crimes, that they can scarcely, and not even at all, repent and be amended. But these acts and proceedings of God do not take away free will, absolutely; first, because these examples are singular; and secondly, because as I have stated, these persons had merited this by their antecedent voluntary offences. Whence it appears that, before God punished them in this manner, they were possessed of free will ; nevertheless they refused to obey God when it was in their power, and therefore were for a long time worthy that God should execute his judgements upon them, which at length, when he saw fit, he did execute. Of this kind was Pharaoh, who, long before, had for a considerable period afflicted the people of God ; and also Judas, who was a miser and a thief. God therefore, that he might punish them, and at the same time employ them for the execution of his purposes, hardened them, or gave them up to the power of Satan. But let me add, the Scriptures never testify that Judas had been from of old specially destined to betray Christ ; but only in a general way that some one of Christ's companions should rise up against him. That Judas was the person, arose, as I have observed from his antecedent wickedness.'' - from the Racovian catechism of the Polish Brethren also known as ''Socinians'' who rejected the Augustinian doctrine of total depravity (I really can't find anything but the so-called ''Pelagianism'' in the early church fathers like Irenaeus - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103437.htm and Jewish writings like Sirach 15:11-20, some say this belief comes from his Manicheanism - https://crosstheology.wordpress.com/...of-the-church/ . It directly contradicts Deut. 24:16, Jer. 31:29-30, Ez. 18:20-21 and many other places in the Bible) https://ia802908.us.archive.org/18/i...00reesuoft.pdf

Last edited by petosiris; 04-04-2020 at 05:41 AM.
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Unread 04-04-2020, 05:54 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Petosiris, your old calumny about Jews as Christ-killers is simply not born out by the Gospels themselves. Never mind the revulsion with which people of good will would read your statements, they simply are not born out by your scriptures.

The Roman authorities killed Jesus. This is something that the Catholic church of Rome would never admit.

I don't take the Bible literally as you know. But you do, so let's follow your fundamentalist approach to the texts.

We learn from the Gospels that many Jews adored Jesus, and crowds showed up to hear his sermons. So these were not Christ-killers. Any Jewish guilt pertains to group of religious leaders and a mob in Jerusalem, not the entire Jewish people.

At the time of his arrest, Jesus said, "Let the scriptures be fulfilled." Mark 14:49. He apparently anticipated his death at that time. There is no evidence in the Gospels that Jesus resisted his impending death.

Please identify for me at what time Herod and Pontius Pilate-- and their military might in Palestine-- were not in control of the trial of Jesus and its outcome. "Washing one's hands" of a volatile situation nonetheless did not relieve Pontius Pilate of his designated authority. Was he fearful of a riot? Pilate had the Roman military at his disposal, who were fully capable of putting down a riot-- notably when Jews would be observing 7 days of Passover.

The soldiers who stripped Jesus and put a crown of thorns on him were Roman soldiers. Roman soldiers conducted the walk to Golgotha. Roman soldiers put Jesus on a cross next two two common thieves. A Roman centurion kept watch over him. A Roman soldier stabbed Jesus' side (also foretold in scripture (John 19:37.) The Roman soldiers were not directed by Jewish leaders, or a Jewish mob, but by Herod and Pilate.

Crucifixion was a Roman method of execution not a Jewish one. Please show me anywhere in the Bible or reputable historical sources where crucifixion was a legitimate Jewish method of execution. So who could have been calling for crucifixion?

Then there are those troubling last words, "Oh, Lord, why have You forsaken me?"

There is Peter's troubling denial of Jesus, even though Peter later became a key founder of the Catholic church.

During his final hours, those who mocked Jesus asked why, if he were the Messiah, didn't he save himself? The answer surely has to be that Jesus saw himself as having a unique destiny that required his torture and death to fulfill. While dying on the cross, his expression of thirst fulfills a destiny (John 19: 28-29.) Even the Roman soldiers who cast lots for Jesus' clothing had a scriptural prescription to fill. (John 19:24-25.)

No death on the cross, no expiation for Original Sin according to some denominations' beliefs. No death on the cross, no redemption for Christians.

Calling the Jews Christ-killers is not merely anti-Semitic. It simply ignores the real implications of the crucifixion according to Christian theology.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 04-04-2020, 05:59 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Yeah like ''throw yourself down'' for it is written, ''He will command his angels concerning you'' and ''On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'' Jesus answered him, ''It is also written: Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'' - Matthew 4:6-7. Jesus also knows all the scriptures about the sinfulness of murder and that God never tempts anyone so he will reply in the exact same way to his murderers and their supporters at his righteous judgement. He will also judge your vain and blasphemous talk about his trial on account of the scriptures.
Keep citing! I can almost smell the fire and brimstone![*]

[*i finally realized that you're channeling Mercury, the trickster.
You fooled me into thinking it was Saturn!]
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Unread 04-04-2020, 06:17 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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''Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven'' - Gen. 19:24

"But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you'' - Deut. 20:17

''This is what the Lord Almighty says: I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'' - 1 Sam. 15:2-3

These people were somehow not willing to repent, just as people for condemnation would not be willing to repent at the judgement, but will be judged solely according to their deeds in the present age.

So there is moral justification for destroying someone, and Jesus himself will destroy multitudes of people and demons in the lake of fire with torment according to their deeds after he defeats all his enemies in his world war with his army of saints and angels. The Scriptures speak more frequently about the wrath of God than the love of God, and there are reasons for this, the chief of which is moral rectitude, that is divine righteousness.
It really is all about "moral rectitude" for you, isn't it Petosiris. Can you distinguish between being righteous and being self-righteous? You try to inhabit a strict and rigid rule-based world, in order to feel in control. But Christian love is not so rule-driven, other than that you are commanded to experience and profess it.

Your version of Christianity is only partial. What about this part?

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NLT)
"Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance."

What about, if your enemy smites you, turn the other cheek? (Matthew 5:39)

What about, "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?" (Matthew 5:46)

You can't have it both ways, Petosiris. Either you read the Bible literally or you don't. Either you admit that it is contradictory or you simply ignore vast swaths of text.

"'Vengeance is mine,' sayeth the Lord." Vengeance belongs to God, not to you.
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  #617  
Unread 04-04-2020, 06:17 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Waybread, please read my posts before debating strawmen. Otherwise I will leave you to your vain opinions disconnected from history.
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  #618  
Unread 04-04-2020, 06:21 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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It really is all about "moral rectitude" for you, isn't it Petosiris. Can you distinguish between being righteous and being self-righteous? You try to inhabit a strict and rigid rule-based world, in order to feel in control. But Christian love is not so rule-driven, other than that you are commanded to experience and profess it.

Your version of Christianity is only partial. What about this part?

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NLT)
"Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance."

What about, if your enemy smites you, turn the other cheek? (Matthew 5:39)

What about, "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?" (Matthew 5:46)

You can't have it both ways, Petosiris. Either you read the Bible literally or you don't. Either you admit that it is contradictory or you simply ignore vast swaths of text.

"'Vengeance is mine,' sayeth the Lord." Vengeance belongs to God, not to you.
Here is the right explanation to the apparent contradiction of these passages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The Torah prohibits unjustified willful murder, such as the murder of Abel by Cain or judicial murder (murder of an innocent). It permits killing in self-defence, killing a burglar by night (but not by day) and it commands the Israelites to exact death penalty for certain transgressions. It also has commandments regarding accidental killing to protect these people from being exacted revenge by the family members. Willful murder is established by showing the instrument that caused death (Num. 35:16-18) or by proving the enmity or hate toward the victim (Num. 35:20-21, Deut. 19:11-13).
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
''Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 天engeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. To the contrary, 妬f your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.'' - Romans 12

Now Paul quoting Proverbs 25 seems to contradict the principle of an eye for an eye. But there is no contradiction between these two statements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
One is either going to be punished in this life, or he is going to be punished at the day of judgement (these are the burning coals). Of course these statements (with Matthew 5:38-44) are contradictory if you are an atheist. But God is coming to exact vengeance upon the nations.
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Jesus and Paul, being righteous Jews knew that God is either going to punish the wrongdoers, or the wrongdoers will repent of their sins and start keeping the commandments of God. Indeed, it is through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, that people from every tribe and every nation are repenting of their sins and turning towards the God of Israel, and the martyrs followed his example ''for even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed''.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Therefore a friend of mine says he prays to God to punish him for the sins he has committed in this life <if God deems it necessary>, so to avoid the wrath of God at the day of judgement, which is taught in many places of the scriptures.
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Thus Jesus Christ and his brother James, whose death at the hands of the Jews is recorded by the historian Josephus and by the church fathers, while they were being unjustly murdered, they were praying for their murderers, for by doing so, they were giving them a second chance while they themselves were getting a crowning reward from God.
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  #619  
Unread 04-04-2020, 06:22 AM
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waybread waybread is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Petosiris, I do read your posts. I don't think you read mine carefully. If you think I am off target, then perhaps you can write more clearly.

My "opinions" are entirely linked to history.

On the matter of destroying the "Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite" I note that these people haven't been around recently.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #620  
Unread 04-04-2020, 06:23 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Waybread, Peto is playing trickster, and not for the first time. Next thing you know, he'll be the staunchest of atheists.

We used to call it "playing with someone's head"!

Wanna bet on whether he'll deny it?
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  #621  
Unread 04-04-2020, 06:26 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

So Petosiris, you're a self-professed Christian, not a Jew. So possibly you could address what the NT says about love.

Why do you resist Christian love so strongly? Your posts are full of anger, retribution, and punishment. These are not the principle messages of your savior according to the texts that you claim to accept literally.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #622  
Unread 04-04-2020, 06:27 AM
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waybread waybread is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Waybread, Peto is playing trickster, and not for the first time. Next thing you know, he'll be the staunchest of atheists.

We used to call it "playing with someone's head"!

Wanna bet on whether he'll deny it?
You reckon? I sure hope you're right.

For a moment there, I thought he was actually serious.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #623  
Unread 04-04-2020, 06:30 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You reckon? I sure hope you're right.

For a moment there, I thought he was actually serious.
Oh, he's good!

Puts a LOT of work into it.
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  #624  
Unread 04-04-2020, 06:34 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Haven't heard much from the OP.
Or Mr.Y (Ynnest) either....

Last edited by david starling; 04-04-2020 at 06:37 AM.
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  #625  
Unread 04-04-2020, 06:44 AM
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waybread waybread is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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By default I can't be racial anti-Semite since I acknowledge only Jews as prophets and apostles, and a Jew from the tribe of Judah as my Lord and Savior. You probably mean that I am somehow a religious anti-Semite. I am not, and I don't believe I have said anything which can be misconstrued in that way. I disagree with some claims of Rabbinic Judaism just as I disagree with most claims of Eastern religions or Roman Catholicism. I can't hate Jews since I said I wanted to be part of the Jewish nation in the kingdom according to the Jewish scriptures - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...&postcount=312

While I don't confess saying anything wrong against the Jewish nation, I myself repented for the Christian antisemitism of past ages - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ostcount=10350 , which is a collective sin, just as I urge the Jewish nation to repent for the persecution and murder of the Christ and the Nazarenes, for their repentance would mean the resurrection of the dead and the arrival of the kingdom according to the apostle Shaul - Romans 11:15 (For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?) and Yeshua himself - Matthew 23:39 (For I say to you, from now on you will not see me until you say, ''Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'').
Petosiris, I am willing to think that you are sincere. But I think you are misguided.

So long as you stick to your Christ-killer trope, you are anti-Semitic. To me, it is very obvious from what you write.

The term "racial" for ethnic groups (like Romanians) is not used today, although I can see that you racialize Jewish people. It is not correct to call Jews a "nation." Jews have many nationalities, as do members of other major religions.

You cannot "repent" for a history in which you played no part. You can resolve to learn from it and to work for a more just and peaceful world in which violence against people on religious grounds plays no part. Beat a few swords into plowshares, so to speak.

I strongly urge you to bring yourself up to date on Jewish history, and the diversity of Jewish belief and practice today. Your understanding will always be both biased and partial if you can't move beyond an ancient historical period.

Do you know any Jewish people well enough to talk to them about their beliefs? It doesn't seem so.

Jews today have lives that extend well beyond your narrow biblically-derived beliefs. Pigeon-holing Jews into your fundamentalist beliefs is a form of anti-Semitism, in denying people's right to define themselves.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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