Predictive Astrology-does only involves internal feelings not external events?

Darth MI

Darth MI

Well-known member
I notice modern astrology seems to dismiss the notion of predicting events. Modern astrology seems to believe all predictive astrology does is forecast internal changes that may affect your state of mind and personality. One such example is this statement from Yahoo Answers top contributor Been There (who claims to be a former member of the American Federation of Astrology and a former professional astrologer and psychologist). From this archived website that was deleted on Yahoo ANswers.

http://www.thatm.com/printthread.php?tid=53474

Been There said:
Predictive astrology predominantly indicates your inner state. And your inner state does tend to influence outer circumstances.
Predictive astrology does not do a very good job of predicting outer circumstances, but whatever DOES happen correlates very well with the inner state.
For instance ... Transiting Uranus square Natal Moon means that while you have grown and changed over the years, you haven't been changing your automatic emotional responses. And now it is time to grow in that area, to catch up with the rest of your growth. Your unconscious knows it is time to change your emotional patterns, so if you do not consciously change those patterns, your unconscious will maneuver you into situations that blow up in your face. Thereby forcing you to try new coping mechanisms.
What might an astrology predict? Expect the unexpected, particular in marriage, with women, with female relatives, with real estate, with home, with family .. these are the "moon areas" of a person's life.
What might happen? You might get a divorce. Or your basement might flood. Or your mother may be pick fights with you. Or a female friend you are close to might drop you suddenly. Or your sister might fall and break her leg and you have to help her a lot, giving up things you want to do in order to assist her.
Any and all connected with this type of transit ... many things that I have not mentioned would fit under this heading of Transiting Uranus square Natal Moon. Anything that forces you to unexpectedly try new emotional coping skills.

The primary predictive tools are Transits, Secondary Progressions, and Solar Arc Directions. Some people get good results with Solar Returns .. most don't get good predictions from them.
How are these tools used? Each is done in a different way and it relates specifically to YOUR timed birth chart and only for YOUR chart. It is complex and lengthy to explain, and is really the topic of a book about astrological prediction.
Click to expand...

Also the portrayal of predictions in astrology sees to be fatalistic. Like the examples in the thread states that in Anna and the King of Siam, an astrologer stated many people in her life will die. I haven't read Anna and the King of Siam FYI but thats what the OP of linked thread stated that many relatives died. Popular media as a whole such as the Twilight Zone portrays astrology in this same manner.

So I am curious how does prediction work in western astrology? Is it only internal like Been There states and does not at all forecast any warning of external events? Or is it like the Anna and the King of Siam example?

Mom is into Chinese astrology and while they predict external events such as death of family members within the year, the Feung Shui books she has states that with the help of talismans,spells, and external factors outside of astrology (such as help of a financial adviser), such predictions like loss of entire bank account could be minimized or even avoided.

Vedic astrology too believes the help of Hindu masters and spiritual artifacts and exercises can also offset or at least minimize the effect of bad astrological forecast.
 
Marinka

Marinka

Well-known member
I'm not exactly sure what your question is -- it's not quite clear.

IMO predictive astrology is about external events. For example, having a love relationship, a child, and getting married. It's also about getting sick, having surgery, and maybe ending up in the hospital. It's about our interactions with the outside world.

My beliefs about astrology do not lie in either traditional or modern as I use all the planets (objects) and do not really dwell on the "psychological" or "understanding yourself" trappings of astrology.

My focus in astrology is entirely prediction and as such, since my belief is that all can be predicted (with enough skill), then all must have been laid out as a path with little (or no) deviation -- so I'm fatalistic. From my perspective, a life path unfolds along the lines of the natal chart with the transits acting as triggers or building blocks.
 
Z

Zarathu

Account Closed
Modern astrology is just as able to predict events as any other kind.

The teacher of my own teacher, Ivy Goldstein Jacobson, was well skilled at this and taught how to do it. But she taught methods that are now only in books, and too many beginning astrologers refuse to amass a library or books that they can learn from. They stubbornly believe that everything they need to know is on the internet, and that it should and must be free to them, despite the fact those those who might write this "free stuff" spent many decades learning it. This is like expecting to be a physician from the stuff you learn on the internet.

Ivy basically had several important aphorisms:

1. No aspect between a progressed or transiting planet can have an event in the physical without there having been a ptolemaic aspect between them in the natal chart. Charles Carter, Weinstein(stock astrologer), and many others have supported this aphorism.

2. There have to be four evidences of the circumstance in the chart for it to manifest int he physical: see one, then maybe; see two, then possibly; see three, then probably; see four, then a certainty.

This means that finding actual events that might happen is tedious. And it means that you need to use transits, 2ndary progressions, tertiary progressions, minor progressions, and solar arc directions. The vast majority of even professional astrologers done even know what the two middle ones are.
----

But Noel Tyl did discover that you don't need four for getting feelings about a subject or thoughts about it.

I learned to use Transits to 2ndary progressions to get numbers in the lottery. Whenever I told my wife to buy the ticket, if she did it within 2 minutes of my telling her, she would get two or three numbers. When she did it on her own she never(and I mean NEVER) got any numbers. But she also was experiencing a luck period too, and has a basically lucky chart generally. I rarely got numbers because I wasn't experiencing a lucky period, and I don't really have a lucky natal chart for where I lived.

The problem is that prediction of actual events is incredibly complex, very very time consuming, and most astrologers simply don't know enough astrology, nor do they have the time to get it right.

But taking it back to me, I no longer do it with people. Why? In my experience predicting event with people is the fastest way to eliminate their free will, and to stop them from growing in their lives. If I turn out right, then they will have waited patiently for an event to take place without doing any growing and preparing for challenges in the between time. And if I'm wrong, then the same is true, but in addition, they have actually lost a lot of time that they can't get back. And anyway, once you interact with the time stream, then you are no longer out of it, and so if I tell you that such and such will happen, then you will change your actions, and now your response to the events may change subtly.

So I describe the challenges that they are experiencing now, to get them on the same page as me, and then tell them the kinds of challenges mentally and emotionally, they will experience in the next year or so. And I do this also by explaining to them: how they deal with changes, what the astrology of their consciousness is, what their mission in life is, what their strengths are, what are the fences their own high self didn't want them to cross, and finally their physical strength and health to accomplish life.
 
Darth MI

Darth MI

Well-known member
Marinka said:
I'm not exactly sure what your question is -- it's not quite clear.

IMO predictive astrology is about external events. For example, having a love relationship, a child, and getting married. It's also about getting sick, having surgery, and maybe ending up in the hospital. It's about our interactions with the outside world.

My beliefs about astrology do not lie in either traditional or modern as I use all the planets (objects) and do not really dwell on the "psychological" or "understanding yourself" trappings of astrology.

My focus in astrology is entirely prediction and as such, since my belief is that all can be predicted (with enough skill), then all must have been laid out as a path with little (or no) deviation -- so I'm fatalistic. From my perspective, a life path unfolds along the lines of the natal chart with the transits acting as triggers or building blocks.
Click to expand...

Modern astrologers-or at least modern astrology federaions such as the AFA and astrologer who are members of it such as Been There-dismiss astrology to be used for predicting external events. Such orgnizations believe astrology is lousy at it and instead believe transits and such predict internal states that will come in the following year. Thats what I am asking because apparently major federations don't believe in external events in the natal chats.
 
Darth MI

Darth MI

Well-known member
Zarathu said:
Modern astrology is just as able to predict events as any other kind.

The teacher of my own teacher, Ivy Goldstein Jacobson, was well skilled at this and taught how to do it. But she taught methods that are now only in books, and too many beginning astrologers refuse to amass a library or books that they can learn from. They stubbornly believe that everything they need to know is on the internet, and that it should and must be free to them, despite the fact those those who might write this "free stuff" spent many decades learning it. This is like expecting to be a physician from the stuff you learn on the internet.

Ivy basically had several important aphorisms:

1. No aspect between a progressed or transiting planet can have an event in the physical without there having been a ptolemaic aspect between them in the natal chart. Charles Carter, Weinstein(stock astrologer), and many others have supported this aphorism.

2. There have to be four evidences of the circumstance in the chart for it to manifest int he physical: see one, then maybe; see two, then possibly; see three, then probably; see four, then a certainty.

This means that finding actual events that might happen is tedious. And it means that you need to use transits, 2ndary progressions, tertiary progressions, minor progressions, and solar arc directions. The vast majority of even professional astrologers done even know what the two middle ones are.
----

But Noel Tyl did discover that you don't need four for getting feelings about a subject or thoughts about it.

I learned to use Transits to 2ndary progressions to get numbers in the lottery. Whenever I told my wife to buy the ticket, if she did it within 2 minutes of my telling her, she would get two or three numbers. When she did it on her own she never(and I mean NEVER) got any numbers. But she also was experiencing a luck period too, and has a basically lucky chart generally. I rarely got numbers because I wasn't experiencing a lucky period, and I don't really have a lucky natal chart for where I lived.

The problem is that prediction of actual events is incredibly complex, very very time consuming, and most astrologers simply don't know enough astrology, nor do they have the time to get it right.

But taking it back to me, I no longer do it with people. Why? In my experience predicting event with people is the fastest way to eliminate their free will, and to stop them from growing in their lives. If I turn out right, then they will have waited patiently for an event to take place without doing any growing and preparing for challenges in the between time. And if I'm wrong, then the same is true, but in addition, they have actually lost a lot of time that they can't get back. And anyway, once you interact with the time stream, then you are no longer out of it, and so if I tell you that such and such will happen, then you will change your actions, and now your response to the events may change subtly.

So I describe the challenges that they are experiencing now, to get them on the same page as me, and then tell them the kinds of challenges mentally and emotionally, they will experience in the next year or so. And I do this also by explaining to them: how they deal with changes, what the astrology of their consciousness is, what their mission in life is, what their strengths are, what are the fences their own high self didn't want them to cross, and finally their physical strength and health to accomplish life.
Click to expand...

So major astrology federations are ignorant of how predictive astrology works?
 
Marinka

Marinka

Well-known member
Darth MI said:
Modern astrologers-or at least modern astrology federaions such as the AFA and astrologer who are members of it such as Been There-dismiss astrology to be used for predicting external events. Such orgnizations believe astrology is lousy at it and instead believe transits and such predict internal states that will come in the following year. Thats what I am asking because apparently major federations don't believe in external events in the natal chats.
Click to expand...

A particular astrologer may not have the skills to predict an outcome but, that does not mean that the astrophysical maps are not capable of providing information that can be interpreted by the skilled.

Who is to say that major federations are correct in their assessment - greater numbers do not make them right only more able to impose their standards on others.

edited to add ... not only natal charts but other charts must be used to identify future configurations/events.
 
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mdinaz

mdinaz

Well-known member
As far as I'm concerned you cannot predict a SPECIFIC event because people have free will which changes at every moment in time. I CAN predict when the best or worst times for specific actions may be, based on your transits, progressions, etc. However, even if something is the best time still doesn't guarantee success because of free will. You plan before you are born the general tone of your life and the experiences you want to have. You may decide that if you don't learn a certain lesson by the age of 25 then there will be a major event in your life to spur you into action - an accident, job loss, divorce, whatever. Those events can be seen in the transits and progressions. However, you have years of free will prior to that time to learn your lessons and make adjustments. When that time comes, the major accident may instead be a very minor accident or an obvious near-miss that gets your attention. The divorce can instead turn into a short separation. You have free will. Anybody that predicts "oh you will be married in 2017" is either a fraud or just a poor astrologer.

I'm still awaiting an explanation from you on why you are trying to learn so many different areas of astrology all at once, and why you are having such a hard time with what this or that person has to say on the internet about it. There seems to be an agenda here.
 
Z

Zarathu

Account Closed
Darth MI said:
Modern astrologers-or at least modern astrology federaions such as the AFA and astrologer who are members of it such as Been There-dismiss astrology to be used for predicting external events. Such orgnizations believe astrology is lousy at it and instead believe transits and such predict internal states that will come in the following year. Thats what I am asking because apparently major federations don't believe in external events in the natal chats.
Click to expand...

That's because these organizations are shams for what real astrology is. They simply don't have a clue about how its done. Its so sad.
 
Z

Zarathu

Account Closed
mdinaz said:
I'm still awaiting an explanation from you on why you are trying to learn so many different areas of astrology all at once, and why you are having such a hard time with what this or that person has to say on the internet about it. There seems to be an agenda here.
Click to expand...


YES! I have the same concern.
 
Darth MI

Darth MI

Well-known member
mdinaz said:
I'm still awaiting an explanation from you on why you are trying to learn so many different areas of astrology all at once, and why you are having such a hard time with what this or that person has to say on the internet about it. There seems to be an agenda here.
Click to expand...

Go reread my thread of abuses in astrology. I've been banned from some astrology sites for voicing an alternative opinions based on what traditional astrologers say. For example astrology sites devoted to Linda Goodman's interpretation or Tribes.Net, I've been vocally stating that traditional astrologers would be horrified with many of the things they practise such as emphasizing the "Sun as your real self" well in fact so far most traditional astrologers would have stated the Ascendant is your identity. In other words traditional astrologers stated in real astrology you may be born int he month of Taurus but you are not a Taurus;you are actually a Cancer because your Ascendant is in Cancer and so forth.

Also like my thread stated so many people in the astrology community online goes around blaming astrology for why they get poor grades or blaming a user for getting banned because of his Mercury in Aries (even though they FLAMEBAITED the banned user in the first place!!!) or even trying to find a birth time of someone they don't even know they have a crush on before actually BEFRIENDING the person first! There's so much idiotic uses of astrology online.

And the main reason is the INCONSISTENCY. Example: Been There states there is no real prediction of external events, just internal changes while traditional astrologers state real astrology is not a tool used for self reflection but an actual tool used for practical purposes irl such as finances and health. Linda Goodman emphasizes the Sun sign as your soul. Linda Goodman as well as major astrological federations such as the PMAFA and NGCR merely sees the ascendant as a social mask thats an absolute facade of your true personality and believe the Sun Sign is your true core self and personality.

Thats why I made all these threads I am flabaggasted at how inconsistent astrology is and all the nonesense that comes out of it. I initially joined other forums in love with astrology but was temporarily turned a hater for nearly a year after getting banned and witnessing the stupidities.

But now I have been rereading more into traditional stuff such as the Arabic Parts and from what I seen on this site there is more consistency and much less stupidity plus users are more familiar with the old school astrology. So I am seeking more information.

BTW I posted these threads on other sites before but I never got a direct answers and some even accused me of trolling for merely asking about the Arabic Parts and stating so many modern stuff is wrong according to what the Greeks and other traditionalist practised.
 
mdinaz

mdinaz

Well-known member
Hopefully by now you've figured out there are many many different disciplines of astrology and even here not everyone agrees on technique. It's like becoming a musician learning how to play only one style of music and then declaring all of music is a fraud because too many people play radically different styles. "You can't go from a suspended 4th to a minor 7th!". I'll go anywhere I damnnn well please. And I'll use major asteroids or novile aspects even if many others don't.
 
J

junoisuppose

Well-known member
Darth MI said:
or even trying to find a birth time of someone they don't even know they have a crush on before actually BEFRIENDING the person first! There's so much idiotic uses of astrology online.
Click to expand...

I don't think this is an idiotic use of astrology.

And I am sure there are people that agree with you and disagree with me.

But

1. some ascendants don't match well with other ascendants,
2. some ascendants don't match well with the specific placement of the planets in your chart,
3. the ascendant determines which house in the other person's chart your planets fall in so shows how they will see you and how they will subconsciously classify your 'use' in their life,
4. the time of birth also determines whether in synastry you have a particular aspect with another person's chart in particular aspects involving the moon,
5. the time of birth affects the composite chart you have with another person,
6. the time of birth can tell you a great deal about the other person's character since you will then know which houses are significant in their chart and how those houses relate to each other by aspects between the house rulers or aspects between planets in those houses,
7. the time of birth can also tell you a great deal about what kind of person the other person is looking for in a romantic partner, since you will know which sign and planets are in their 5th, 7th and 8th houses, where the rulers of the 5th and 7th house are in their chart, which other planets aspect those rulers and whether there are any aspects to planets in those houses

Sure you're not going to have a relationship with a person without befriending them. Furthermore it might be a good idea to try to relate to everyone without preconceived ideas since you never know what you might learn from that person and you might be missing out on valuable life experiences by skipping this step. But when it comes to romantic relationships there are some people who are just not going to see you as their type for various reasons related to the points above, and in this case it is better to know this early on and save yourself a lot of time. IMO.

Knowing the time of birth of someone you don't get along with and have absolutely no romantic interest in is also useful for all the reasons listed above.
 
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