Astrology says that woman are submissive!?

david starling said:

Are there really only two genders?

Click to expand...

No, because gender is defined as a cultural construct. It can vary significantly across cultures. What it means to be a woman in Saudi Arabia is different than what it means to be a woman in the space station.

LGTB people are making many people question their conventional binaries.

Oddity said:

Astrology is its own system. If you give it a heavy overlay of psychology, you're simply using it to do psych with a veneer of astrology. And arguably doing a disservice to both fields.

There are a lot of things astrologers can see that psychologists can't (like Mercury ruling trans everything), so we don't need to repeat those old chestnuts like women will invariably marry their fathers. Some will, sure. But a lot won't.

Generalisations and statistics don't hold up well when you've got a person and their chart sitting right in front of you.

Click to expand...

That's why I don't like cold readings. I learn about what actually works from the actual in-person readings.

Alimal said:

Binary is the basis of System - the first division is the origin of all divisions. Abstraction is synonym of Division. Abstraction is also synonym of Thought. System is also synonym of Division and Abstract. Thought is Systematic.

The origin of Thought is Binary - the Yin/Yang, Duality, Karma.

All of this is Abstract and Imperfect.

Truth exists outside of Thought.


You can abstract Gender to as many divisions as you will, but the basis will ever be the one Thought, the Original Division, the Yin/Yang. It is Dual.

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your beliefs. I don't happen to share them.

waybread said:

No, because gender is defined as a cultural construct. It can vary significantly across cultures. What it means to be a woman in Saudi Arabia is different than what it means to be a woman in the space station.

LGTB people are making many people question their conventional binaries.

Click to expand...

"...a woman in the space station." ??? Is that a new micro-culture?

CapAquaPis said:

Ancient or traditional astrology was used in a time women were regulated or restricted, but there are many natal charts clearly depicted a woman can have strong characteristics, personalities and attributes, she can exhibit a masculine "alpha" type, even at times when it's harder for women to be equal, independent or self-reliant. In world history, there always been women who have bravery and courage, but most men in all cultures at those times needed to recognize a woman can have strengths. Sexism is still around today (in Anglo-America too) as some men treat women as inferior, expect her to be submissive or docile, and refuse her complete civil rights.

I find Aquarian women to either have gender-neutral or bi-gender qualities, same with many Aquarian men like myself (Sun/Moon in 8th). In this age of Aquarius, the genders will have less boundaries or barriers when it comes to social norms or politics. My own natal chart revealed I have strong Cancer or "feminine" sign influences, or my own gender identity as half-male/female, except I'm biologically male and only heterosexual or straight orientation. 3 indications of what kind of woman I'm attracted to is 1. Sun in Aquarius-8th, 2. Moon in Aquarius-8th (the house ruled by Scorpio-a sign of tough, rough and ready) and 3. "feminine" Venus/Eris/Ceres in fiery Aries-midheaven.

Click to expand...

If you look at a "blind" horoscope, you cannot tell if it belongs to a male or female. If you took up a challenge to read it, you would have to describe any qualities like "alpha type," "brave," "courageous," or "feminine" without knowing who the person was.

This should tell us something about what it means to be human.

david starling said:

"...a woman in the space station." ??? Is that a new micro-culture?

Click to expand...

Not really. Just science and engineering.

I guess from a psychological perspective, we prefer (not all) to marry people who remind us of our parents, the people we loved since the day of our birth. I know a man can have a great relationship with his mother, sometimes better than with the father. And a woman doesn't have to marry a man who reminds her of father. We may have sisters or/and brothers we gotten along well with. We learned how to treat others with dignity and respect, both male and female. And how our parents (moms or/and dads) taught us to relate to the opposite sex without bigotry, prejudice and discrimination.

waybread said:

If you look at a "blind" horoscope, you cannot tell if it belongs to a male or female. If you took up a challenge to read it, you would have to describe any qualities like "alpha type," "brave," "courageous," or "feminine" without knowing who the person was.

This should tell us something about what it means to be human.

Click to expand...

Ever done a Chart that has "Macho" written all over it, and it's a woman's? Or a "nurturing" Chart, and it's a man's? Culturally, that's a role-reversal, but you can't fool the Chart.

Can we toss the Freudian psychology out the window? What about women (or gay men, for that matter) who grow up without a father? Or with a series of step-fathers?

Synastry says a lot about the type of person to whom we are attracted.

Thank, God, I'm an Aquarian.

david starling said:

Ever done a Chart that has "Macho" written all over it, and it's a woman's? Or a "nurturing" Chart, and it's a man's?

Click to expand...

David, astrologically I don't know why you would word it this way. There are a lot of female charts with a prominent Aries and Mars. You might see a male chart that is heavily into Cancer or Pisces with a prominent Venus. I just wouldn't dichotemize these people or horoscopes as "macho" or "nurturing."

Your post makes me think of my son, who played rugby and football in high school, and A-level rugby in university. As a college student, he had a part-time job as a bouncer in a bar. He is also a graphic designer, who designed his own wedding cake and invitations. He's got both a domiciled Venus and a conjunct Pluto-Mars. Now that he is a new father, it is just a joy to see him caring for his little son, including bottle-feeding and diaper-changing. This type of person defies old-fashioned and outworn categories of what are macho and what are feminine behaviours.

Alimal said:

Which part do you disagree on?

Click to expand...

I agree that astrology is or should be systematic. That's about it.

waybread said:

David, astrologically I don't know why you would word it this way. There are a lot of female charts with a prominent Aries and Mars. You might see a male chart that is heavily into Cancer or Pisces with a prominent Venus. I just wouldn't dichotemize these people or horoscopes as "macho" or "nurturing."

Your post makes me think of my son, who played rugby and football in high school, and A-level rugby in university. As a college student, he had a part-time job as a bouncer in a bar. He is also a graphic designer, who designed his own wedding cake and invitations. He's got both a domiciled Venus and a conjunct Pluto-Mars. Now that he is a new father, it is just a joy to see him caring for his little son, including bottle-feeding and diaper-changing. This type of person defies old-fashioned and outworn categories of what are macho and what are feminine behaviours.

Click to expand...

I meant a Chart that's heavily weighted one way or the other. Not many are, but such people have to deal with the cultural stereotypes. Your son sounds very well balanced!

waybread said:

Not really. Just science and engineering.

Click to expand...

Having spent a few years in a University Engineering Department, I'd call that a "micro-culture". Surprisingly, I didn't fit in very well! Hmm....maybe it was my long hair and bare feet....

david starling said:

There's an entrenched theory that woman are attracted to men with the Sun in their Mars-sign, whereas men are attracted to women with the Sun in their Venus-sign.

Click to expand...

I'm attracted to Men with placements in my Mars sign, whether that's the Sun or anything else. Sometimes it works. *feels like a stereotype*

Alimal said:

So I guess you don't agree with the dictionary? Because I gave a bunch of definitions and laid them out in a perfectly logical sense.

I guess you're just a rebel to the core, Aquarian.

Click to expand...

Do not dismiss my arguments with a silly stereotype.

sibylline said:

I'm attracted to Men with placements in my Mars sign, whether that's the Sun or anything else. Sometimes it works. *feels like a stereotype*

Click to expand...

Tell me about it! I married someone with Sun, Mercury and Mars in my Venus sign. Of course it's also my Moon sign, since I have Moon and Venus Conj.

CapAquaPis said:

I guess from a psychological perspective, we prefer (not all) to marry people who remind us of our parents, the people we loved since the day of our birth. I know a man can have a great relationship with his mother, sometimes better than with the father. And a woman doesn't have to marry a man who reminds her of father. We may have sisters or/and brothers we gotten along well with. We learned how to treat others with dignity and respect, both male and female. And how our parents (moms or/and dads) taught us to relate to the opposite sex without bigotry, prejudice and discrimination.

Click to expand...

It's not to say that you want to or that you even loved your parents (this is subconscious), but through the process of socialization, the way your family interacts with one another and your parents with one another will be how you learn to interact with the world around you, for better or worse. But this is not to say that you are doomed to repeat dysfunctional ways of interacting with others (if that was the case at home), because you have free will and the ability to reflect.


What about women (or gay men, for that matter) who grow up without a father? Or with a series of step-fathers?

Waybread, I don't think the absence of a father or being homosexual would negate the impact of the early home-life on adult relationships. A cousin of mine is gay and he, at this point in life, is heavily leaning on his relationships for validation of his self-esteem because of the lack of emotional support he received in his youth, from both parents imo.

It's also not just Freudian to say our parents influence our relationships. Many schools of thought in human development consider the home environment as the foundation of basically your entire life trajectory (not in a fatalistic way, again, as we all have free will). I don't see how this is out of line with astrology, but maybe I am more partial to psychological astrology and this is coloring my viewpoint.

Personally I find that recognizing these influences empowers me to make conscious decisions that go against the way I was negatively "programmed," if you will.

david starling said:

There's an entrenched theory that woman are attracted to men with the Sun in their Mars-sign, whereas men are attracted to women with the Sun in their Venus-sign.

Click to expand...

I know the theory and it isn't true in my experience. I think it's another one of those things that's entrenched in a false binary: Mars isn't something I project onto another person, Mars is in me.

Funnily enough, my Dad's Sun is conjunct my Mars and I've met other people with their Sun at that degree and the result is the same: they all get me angry!! I have, however, been attracted to men who's Sun sits opposite my father's.

Alimal said:

Care to point me to your arguments?

Click to expand...

Oh, no problem. Just re-read my previous posts.

craft94 said:

I know the theory and it isn't true in my experience. I think it's another one of those things that's entrenched in a false binary: Mars isn't something I project onto another person, Mars is in me.

Funnily enough, my Dad's Sun is conjunct my Mars and I've met other people with their Sun at that degree and the result is the same: they all get me angry!! I have, however, been attracted to men who's Sun sits opposite my father's.

Click to expand...

What about liking, or at least being more tolerant of, someone with Sun in your Moon-Sign?