@sibylline, do you plan on addressing this?
Or are you avoiding it for some reason?
What is your definition of 'season'?
Or are you avoiding it for some reason?
What is your definition of 'season'?
HoldorFold, thank you for the information and videos.
What actually caused you to rethink using sidereal with Vedic? Was it Wilhelm? I admit, I'd never heard of these people before you mentioned them.
That's not fair. You see, you've questioned my honesty right from the start when you jumped into the discussion. I've been very straightforward with you thru-out the entire discussion. But you keep redirecting me to google so I have to assume that you either don't understand the topic at hand or you do understand but don't want to admit that you are wrong.muchacho,
The definition can likely be found in the same place you cherry-picked your definition from.
My mistake was thinking you were honestly interested in discussing this topic. Since you're not, this is my last reply to you.
@HoldOrFold: thanks for your link! Anyone interested in Wilhelm's reasoning behind switching to tropical just listen to this 3 hour podcast:
http://www.vedic-astrology.net/FreeClasses/Ayanamsa-and-Rasis.mp3
He explains in great detail his take on the different zodiacs and the reasoning behind changing methods of calculation.
He also explains his Ayanamsa choice which I find interesting, although flawed. He says the only fixed point we have is the galactic center, everything else is constantly moving. So he chooses the galactic center as his reference point and as the center of Mula ('root') Nakshatra. Which gives an Ayanamsa value that is very close to Usha-Shashi.
He also references Yukteswar a lot. However, according to Yukteswar the phenomenon of precession is due to the Sun's orbit around another star which gives us the Great Year (24,000 terrestrial years) and not due to the Sun's orbit around the galactic center which gives us the Galactic Year (up to 250 million terrestrial years).
Apart from changing calculations and Ayanamsa, I think I can mostly agree with Wilhelm. His youtube channel also has a lot of great stuff!
That's not fair. You see, you've questioned my honesty right from the start when you jumped into the discussion. I've been very straightforward with you thru-out the entire discussion. But you keep redirecting me to google so I have to assume that you either don't understand the topic at hand or you do understand but don't want to admit that you are wrong.
The seasonal argument can be defeated all too easily. Maybe that's what made you so upset. However, this doesn't mean that the tropical zodiac is useless or debunked. It just means that the seasons can't be the actual reason behind the 12 signs of the tropical zodiac.
That's not fair. You see, you've questioned my honesty right from the start when you jumped into the discussion. I've been very straightforward with you thru-out the entire discussion. But you keep redirecting me to google so I have to assume that you either don't understand the topic at hand or you do understand but don't want to admit that you are wrong.
The seasonal argument can be defeated all too easily. Maybe that's what made you so upset. However, this doesn't mean that the tropical zodiac is useless or debunked. It just means that the seasons can't be the actual reason behind the 12 signs of the tropical zodiac.
What are the 4 distinct seasons you've experienced on the equator?
Kenya lies on the equator [...] Kenya's climate is divided into four distinct seasons: Hot-Dry season (mid-December to mid-March), Long-Rains (mid-March to mid-June), Cool-Dry season (mid-June to mid-October), Short-Rains (mid-October to mid-December)...
At the equator, temperatures stay basically the same thru-out the year as do daylight hours. The only thing that may change is the amount of rain.
Over the course of a year, the temperature [in Kenya] typically varies from 53°F to 80°F and is rarely below 51°F or above 82°F.
[...]And then I found out that Wilhelm, and some others, are using the tropical zodiac with vedic so then things started to fall into place. I've also heard in several places about many sidereal vedic astrologers who don't pay much attention to the signs and instead focus more on aspects, house placements etc. This would make sense if they have had to adapt to using a zodiac which is out of sync.
Wilhelm agrees with Yukteswar that the larger cycle of the Great Year is responsible for the cyclical rise and fall of civilizations (due to the cyclical rise and fall of consciousness/awareness of man). According to Yukteswar we've just left the Iron Age (kali yuga - where any kind of true knowledge is lost) behind. So it's no wonder that astrology is still very much in disarray. So Wilhelm acknowledges that fate of civilizations and nations (aka mundane astrology!) is linked to the Great Year cycle, which is sidereal. And since the tropical zodiac is out of sync with that larger cycle it then follows that he would have to use the sidereal zodiac for mundane astrology again!
The fruit of a tree that grows in one seasonal clime can be consumed in another. Tropical-astrology definitely has Northern Hemispheric roots with particular seasonal connotations, but that doesn't disqualify it's applications in the Southern Hemisphere. Sidereal-astrology has seasonal connotations as well, since the names and images were recorded by Ancient Babylonians at a time when there was seasonal correspondence to the helical positions of the Zodiacal constellations. Both Tropical and Sidereal Astrology were inspired by, and have connections to, seasonal conditions in Northern Hemispheric locations.
I was worried initially about using tropical with Vedic because I thought Vedic may have been adapted over centuries to suit sidereal and tropical may be less effective or completely ineffective. So it's good to know there are others having success with it. Still, I want to test the two out and see the differences. An issue I'm having is with weighting all of the factors. I just got a book which contains information on the Neecha Banga Raja Yoga so I went to look up some more on it but sources vary so much in their views on it. Some very experienced astrologers afford it essentially no power in ameliorating debilities, while others think it changes the picture entirely.
My argument was that the tropical zodiac is out of sync with the larger cycles and that the seasonal argument is bogus. Please show me where I have changed my position on that.muchacho, when you know everything, there is no room for anything else.
You're now pretending as if you believe the tropical zodiac has any merit and you find Wilhelm so enlightening when anyone can read how you completely dismissed the tropical zodiac several times on the first page. Have you changed your views so easily? Why not discuss the issues in the sidereal zodiac, re: modalities? These tactics of yours are why I say you're being dishonest.
I said I would not reply to you but on the off-chance there is any sincerity in your comments (or for anyone truly interested), I will.
I rerouted you to Google to save time and because I thought you knew, as well as I do, that many areas around the equator experience weather changes (what you call seasons) and you were playing smart aleck.
It's not clear now that you do know that. So let's discuss it:
It's actually your argument which doesn't hold, any way you dice it. Weather is an aspect of a season, not a season itself. Let's address your comments re: weather, however.
Here's a bit on Kenya, where I lived. All easily found on Google.
https://books.google.com/books?id=7yIoPkkEyU8C&pg=PA51#v=onepage&q&f=false
Response:
What really defeats the seasonal argument though is the reverse order of the seasons in the southern hemisphere. See JA's earlier post for details.Singapore has a tropical rainforest climate (Köppen: Af ) with no distinctive seasons, uniform temperature and pressure, high humidity, and abundant rainfall. Temperatures usually range from 22 to 35 °C (72 to 95 °F). Relative humidity averages around 79% in the morning and 73% in the afternoon While temperature does not vary greatly throughout the year, there is a wetter monsoon season from November to January.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore#Climate
Are you suggesting we should blame Ptolemy and his kali yuga contemporaries for the confusion?The fruit of a tree that grows in one seasonal clime can be consumed in another. Tropical-astrology definitely has Northern Hemispheric roots with particular seasonal connotations, but that doesn't disqualify it's applications in the Southern Hemisphere. Sidereal-astrology has seasonal connotations as well, since the names and images were recorded by Ancient Babylonians at a time when there was seasonal correspondence to the helical positions of the Zodiacal constellations. Both Tropical and Sidereal Astrology were inspired by, and have connections to, seasonal conditions in Northern Hemispheric locations.
That sounds like a reasonable conclusion. As I've already mentioned, Santos Bonacci sees the sidereal zodiac as the spiritual background and the tropical zodiac somehow connected to the physical and I think with 'physical' he had medical astrology in mind.Well every western astrologer knows about the procession of the equinox and the ages etc. and also the use of fixed stars so it's not necessarily as if it's anything new that sidereal is used for certain things.
But then it's quite a big leap to say because of this one must use sidereal for all mundane astrology. Nobody has the concrete answers so there's just speculation, but to me, on an intuitive level, it seems to imply that there is a higher spiritual influence from the sidereal procession. I've also read about the view that the age we are in is like a dial which dials into a certain frequency which is always being emitted from our galactic core. This would be a galactic, spiritual infuence and I can see how it's sidereal. I see tropical as more earth based, influences from our perspective here on earth. Perhaps the sidereal zodiac even creates a background influence to the tropical signs like a secondary progressed birth chart.
Maybe this might help explain why the age of Pisces hasn't exactly been all unicorns and rainbows, instead we've had the biggest wars in the history of the planet. Perhaps there's the age also filtered through a tropical influence of Aries. This is all just wild speculation on my part though, not something I've properly thought about.
Are you suggesting we should blame Ptolemy and his kali yuga contemporaries for the confusion?
That sounds like a reasonable conclusion. As I've already mentioned, Santos Bonacci sees the sidereal zodiac as the spiritual background and the tropical zodiac somehow connected to the physical and I think with 'physical' he had medical astrology in mind.