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Degree Symbols Discuss your experiences with all symbol systems based on astrological degrees in the chart (i.e., Sabian Symbols, Kozminsky Symbols, etc.): the symbols for the transiting Sun and Moon and the events of your life, the symbols of your natal chart...


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  #1  
Unread 07-31-2013, 08:59 PM
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Part of Reincarnation?

The part i am referring to is Asc + Saturn - Jupiter. Would anyone like to share their experiences with this part?

It is a bit of an ominous principle, (i attained the keyword "reincarnation" from ptv's thread 'astrological parts known and unkown') but can anyone see this fitting into their life?

Here's mine. taken from dane rudhyar's astrological mandala:

Asc+ Saturn - Jupiter: Gemini 22.14

GEMINI 23):
THREE FLEDGLINGS IN A NEST HIGH IN A TREE.
KEYNOTE:
The growth of spiritually creative processes in an at least relatively integrated mind.

In traditional symbolism birds usually refer to spiritual forces, or at least to the higher and freer aspects of the mind. Here we see only the very beginning of a process in what we might also call "the upper chamber" of the consciousness where the creative power of the spirit can be received and assimilated. Fecundated by the spirit and supported by a deeply rooted cultural and vitalistic tradition, man can gradually develop an integral personality. It is essentially three-fold, reflecting the Divine Trinity, in India expressed as Sat-Chit-Ananda.
This is the third stage of a process which should lead to a deeper and more natural understanding of human existence. It suggests that the ambitious mass protests of aroused and largely blind desires should be transmuted through harmonization with natural drives and in terms of spontaneous responses attuned to the phases of natural evolution. Stressed here is CREATIVE INTEGRATION.

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Unread 07-31-2013, 10:43 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

My part is:

PHASE 332 (PISCES 2): A SQUIRREL HIDING FROM HUNTERS.
KEYNOTE: The individual's need both to ensure his future subsistence and to protect himself from aggressive social elements.
The squirrel not only has to hide and store food for the winter, but to be on the lockout for the dangers involved in gathering this food supply. Social processes always cast strong shadows, The individual is never certain of being safe among his fellowmen, once the process of individualization — with its negative aspects, competition, social aggressivity and greed — forces the breakdown of the organic tribal state of mankind during the archaic ages.
This second stage symbol contrasts with the first. It warns of the dangers of life in society during an era of exacerbated individualism, when violence is a possibility never to be dismissed. The need for SELF-PROTECTION and caution is ever present.
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Unread 07-31-2013, 10:45 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

I remember ptv had a post about this symbol, but I was a bit lost in his interpretation I am going to go find that thread and re-read it
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Unread 07-31-2013, 10:56 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Hi Crux, thanks for posting your symbol. Do you find it fits at all? Would you say this symbol has any "karmic" meaning to you? Is this the purpose of your reincarnation? Or some result of a previous carnation?

I think your symbol is talking about attaining protection in a society that is individually oriented. A need to steer away from the more agressive and lewd social acts.

It seems to imply a cautious approach to life.
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Unread 07-31-2013, 11:13 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Hi Crux, thanks for posting your symbol. Do you find it fits at all? Would you say this symbol has any "karmic" meaning to you? Is this the purpose of your reincarnation? Or some result of a previous carnation?

I think your symbol is talking about attaining protection in a society that is individually oriented. A need to steer away from the more agressive and lewd social acts.

It seems to imply a cautious approach to life.
The symbol sounds very violent don't it lol. I can't say I have noticed anything karmic about the symbol. It's very hard to hold a mirror to your life and understand each detail of it.
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Unread 07-31-2013, 11:30 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

This is very interesting. Can you tell me how you get there? My asc is 29 deg scorpio, saturn 13 deg aquarius, and jupiter 9 deg libra . Im really curious
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Unread 07-31-2013, 11:43 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

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Originally Posted by JenniferThiesing View Post
This is very interesting. Can you tell me how you get there? My asc is 29 deg scorpio, saturn 13 deg aquarius, and jupiter 9 deg libra . Im really curious
it's roughly 3 aries but i would need to know the minutes of those degrees to find the exact symbolism for you.

here's the parts calculator: (it doesn't matter if you choose anything from the upper dropbox, just put the ascendant in the first box, saturn in second, and jupiter in third box and it will calculate for you.)
http://www.noendpress.com/pvachier/arabicparts/

and the sabian symbolism for each degree:

(since it goes from 1-30 rather than 0-29 always
read the symbolism for the NEXT symbol. for instance 0.23 aries would be the symbol for 1 aries)

http://mindfire.ca/The%20Sabian%20Sy...20Contents.htm

Last edited by Phoenix Venus; 07-31-2013 at 11:50 PM.
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Unread 07-31-2013, 11:53 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Aries 3.34
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Unread 08-09-2013, 06:46 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

ahh, sorry, forgot about this thread! I know the sites been down so here is the symbol for aries 4:
TWO LOVERS STROLLING ON A SECLUDED WALK.
KEYNOTE: The progressive polarization of energies needed for fulfilling one's life function.

In order to respond fully to the potentialities released by a sense of identification with a greater Whole, the human being should be himself whole. An interplay of bipolar energies is needed to provide a sustained and dynamic "resonance" to any superior and encompassing form of life. This may imply a temporary withdrawal from routine activity, i.e. a "secluded" process. It is not, however, a closed process. The positive and negative polarities do not meet in a closed circuit, reconstituting a neutral state of potentiality. They operate in dynamic, open, unresolved togetherness in contact with the surrounding energies of nature.
This symbol characterizes the fourth stage of the first five-fold sequence of phases: the stage of dynamic and unresolved POLARIZATION. It introduces the basic means - one might say, the technique - to establish consciousness in the world of duality.

interesting.. seems to imply a secluded life lead by the emergence of the duality within the psyche... a need for fulfillment... the blending of masculine and feminine... might even imply a life that will give a great love...

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Unread 08-09-2013, 07:38 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

My astrology program: Haloran AstrolDeluxe 7 has that part listed as the part of Life. The book The Fortunes of Astrology by Robert Hurzt Granite also lists it as " Life", but attributes "P. Grell" to calling it the part of Reincarnation. It is attributed as a Part of the FIRST HOUSE and changes during night.

Its conjuncts the asteroid Aesculapius which is an asteroid of healing, in my natal chart.

Last edited by Zarathu; 08-09-2013 at 07:46 PM.
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Unread 08-09-2013, 08:06 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Thanks for the info, Zarathu. Maybe the title reincarnation can be interchangable with the title life.. as they both show what the person is dealt in this lifetime..


That is interesting about the healing asteroid conjunct that part for you. Could you make any recommendations on a comprehensive record of the asteroids and their meanings? A book or website... i've found a few sites before but there are SOOO many of them... they definitely add yet another layer to dissect..


Is there a way to find out what asteroids are conjunct points in a given chart... aside from going through each one? I'm sure there is a program that can do this.. at least, their should be..
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Unread 08-09-2013, 08:19 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post

Is there a way to find out what asteroids are conjunct points in a given chart... aside from going through each one? I'm sure there is a program that can do this.. at least, their should be..
Both of the two astrology programs I own(Haloran AstrolDeluxe 7, and Solar Fire Gold 7) do this.

I would say that all of the stand alone astrology programs that can give Arabic parts do this. In both of them, I can add as many parts as I wish. In Haloran, my main program, I have more than 250 parts listed, and can see instantly what they aspect or conjunct.
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Unread 08-15-2013, 05:17 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
My astrology program: Haloran AstrolDeluxe 7 has that part listed as the part of Life. The book The Fortunes of Astrology by Robert Hurzt Granite also lists it as " Life", but attributes "P. Grell" to calling it the part of Reincarnation. It is attributed as a Part of the FIRST HOUSE and changes during night.

Its conjuncts the asteroid Aesculapius which is an asteroid of healing, in my natal chart.
So? What's the difference?

...and it's not just my humble opinion, but also the opinion of many...that you do not change a Parts formula regardless of whether it is day or night.
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Unread 08-15-2013, 05:21 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

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Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
So? What's the difference?

...and it's not just my humble opinion, but also the opinion of many...that you do not change a Parts formula regardless of whether it is day or night.
What rationale do you employ to reach that conclusion?

It is the opinion of many, of course, that you do reverse it, but I'm curious why you choose not to? Any particular reason?
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Unread 08-15-2013, 05:33 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

PV, I've been contemplating the two formula that utilize Saturn and Jupiter for both the 'Significator' and the 'Trigger'.

If you've read the recent thread I've started in the research and development sub forum titled, "Parts Unknown", maybe you can understand as to what I'm getting at here.

With Saturn as the 'Trigger', at the moment it seems to me that would be indicative of a Part of Re-incarnation

ALSO of MAJOR NOTE... is that my original calculation for the Part of Re-incarnation, as it is listed in the list of parts derived from the chart I have belief is the chart of Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth, was wrong. As it should have been listed as being in the 25th degree of Aries.

...and although I have that feeling as to the Formula for a Part of Reincarnation being that of the other, the rectification of my error has now produced, imho, appropriate symbology for said Part as to what we know, or believe to know, about the Man from Naz.
...as the other Part that is produced is listed as being that of "Brethren", and as such doesn't seem to "fit the profile" {late edit: By that I meant the nature of the title of the part, not the Man. ...I am terrible at at times, most times, at trying to express myself.}, so to speak.

...and just now it dawned on me that the formula that places Jupiter in the 'Trigger" position would seem to indicate what may be cause for having to re-incarnate. this is because I see it as that which one might incur karmic debt as to having to reincarnate, yet again, after this present sojourn.

Kind of like .... Part of Karmic Debt Paid & a Part of Karmic Debt Incurred... possibly?

The entry has been corrected as of this morning
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Unread 08-15-2013, 06:43 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

I'll also post here the correct Sabian Symbol for this, alleged, Part of Re-incarnation derived from that chart I believe to be that of the "Man from Nazareth", the 25th degree of Aries.

From Dane Rudhyar's book, "An Astrological Mandala"

"THE POSSIBILITY FOR MAN TO GAIN EXPERIENCE AT TWO LEVELS OF BEING.

KEYNOTE: The revelation of new potentialities.


In some unspecified way the symbol is a guarantee that man can operate successfully at two levels of consciousness, if he has previously met the condition mentioned in the preceding symbol. 'Be open. Be able and willing to shape your translucent mind in the form revealing spiritual fulfillment. And you will be able to experience life and power on inner as well as outer planes.' The implied message is one of faith. Man can only truly experience what he deeply believes he can experience.

This is the last stage of this fifth five-fold sequence of cyclic phases. It announces the possibility of a new step in evolution, but it is still only a possibility, a promise. The individual is truly ON PROBATION."

Now it makes sense!

... those "Two Levels of Being", that; as the man Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth ...and as a man now One with the Christ... as the few sects of Gnostic Christianity, Edgar Cayce, and the Illumined Souls of the Yogis sufficiently advanced in the understanding of Vedic Knowledge, all knew and understood, or presently know and understand.
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Unread 08-15-2013, 07:57 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Maybe the title reincarnation can be interchangable with the title life.. as they both show what the person is dealt in this lifetime.
No, ASC + Saturn - Jupiter is the Lot of Life.

It's location in the chart by Sign and House, and the location of its Dispositor will allow you to judge the length of the Native's life, soundness of body and its sustenance, as it relates to Culture, Race and Ethnic Group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
So? What's the difference?

...and it's not just my humble opinion, but also the opinion of many...that you do not change a Parts formula regardless of whether it is day or night.
it's already been proven that the formulas do change, although not necessarily for all Lots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
When you change a formula you are changing the nature of what is produced.
No, you are not. For those Lots that employ the Lights, you are accounting for Sect when you reverse the Lot.

Day Lot of Fortune: ASC + Moon - Sun
Night Lot of Fortune: ASC + Sun - Moon

Sun is the Sect Light during the Day, but Moon is Sect Light during the Night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
It would be no different if you asked Einstein to change E = MCsquared to E = CMsquared because it was night when all was created or because it was light the same moment all was created.
[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

By reversing the formula, the only thing we're doing is taking this...

E = m * c^2

...and changing it to this....

E / m = c^2

...or to this...

E / c^2 = m

...which is nothing more than a restatement of the same formula.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
...and I put the question forth to my trusty, dependable friend, clairvoyant and spiritual confidante, Clarisse Conner... she said the same thing....
I do not find that even remotely persuasive. You'll have to come up with a better explanation than that.
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Unread 08-16-2013, 05:16 AM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

I checked mine out of interest.

I have POR at 23 Virgo
Is conjunct vertex and psyche..


The sabian for 24 Virgo

Virgo 24. Mary and her white lamb. Keywords: a good heart and pure soul, honesty, peace, friendship, an innocent person, faith.
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Unread 08-16-2013, 05:25 AM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion o ness View Post
I checked mine out of interest.

I have POR at 23 Virgo
Is conjunct vertex and psyche..


The sabian for 24 Virgo

Virgo 24. Mary and her white lamb. Keywords: a good heart and pure soul, honesty, peace, friendship, an innocent person, faith.
well you do have a sweet little angel in your sig...
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Unread 08-16-2013, 06:33 AM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Lion O Ness & others who are interested, ptv in his awesome sleuthing has came to a proposal which I am finding to be rather convincing so far, looking at a few charts..

asc + jup - sat: previous carnation/ karma incurred

asc + sat - jup: current incarnation/ karma paid

try it on your charts and see

here is mine for previous incarnation from Dane Rudhyars "An Astrological Mandala":

PISCES 11): MEN TRAVELING A NARROW PATH, SEEKING ILLUMINATION. KEYNOTE: The capacity inherent in every individual to seek at whatever cost entrance to a transcendent realm of reality. This refers to the ancient and eternal symbol of the Path of Discipleship. The greatness of man is that he can always be greater; and the belief deeply rooted in men's inner nature that if he fulfills the necessary conditions he can find "Elder Brothers" who have already attained a higher level of consciousness and will transfer their attainment and light to him. The Path is always open to the pure in heart, the mentally aware, the conqueror of emotions and the spiritually self-mobilized. This symbol opens the sixty-ninth five-fold sequence and a new level of consciousness. Man is always in the making and remaking. He can always go further, reach beyond. But he has to take the first step. Someone can show him the Path, but he alone can do the walking. Thus the Zen injunction: WALK ON.

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Unread 08-16-2013, 03:29 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
When you change a formula you are changing the nature of what is produced.
When you adjust a formula dependent upon a given criterion you are accounting for the differences or anomalies that criterion would produce.

In the case of, to use the example, the Lot of Fortune you are not so much changing the formula as changing the values assigned to the formula based on environmental factors.

The Lot of Fortune does not have two formulae, one for night and another for day, it has one formula, if you like, which is:

Lot of Fortune = Ascendant - Sect Light + Contrary to Sect Light
The Lot of Spirit = Ascendant + Sect Light - Contrary to Sect Light


Which puts the emphasis that the sect light is subtracted for the more physically oriented lot of fortune, whilst it is added in the more dynamic 'spirit' lot.

This formula perfectly takes into consideration that the given sect light has signification which needs to be carefully accounted for.

Quote:
It would be no different if you asked Einstein to change E = MCsquared to E = CMsquared because it was night when all was created or because it was light the same moment all was created.
Actually the difference is huge. The problem is not understanding all the given variables that go into the calculation of the given lots.

[deleted response to attacking post - Moderator]

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Unread 08-16-2013, 03:58 PM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

[deleted response to attacking post - Moderator]

Let's stick to the lots of fortune and spirit as they are the easiest to understand and their logic can be extended beyond them.

First thing I would ask is what does the Lot of Fortune and Spirit signify? Well, being short and sweet about this, the Lot of Fortune has signification over the physical riches such as the body, the health of the native, their physical resources and yes, their obvious 'riches' in the monetary sense. Their physical assets.
The Lot of Spirit, on the other hand, pertains to the riches of the 'soul' or 'mind' - by which we can include general honour as well as intelligence.

Now in the Hermetic doctrine that these considerations arise from, there is a deep mystical signification to the sect lights and the idea of darkness and light. The sect light is that which holds the light of that moment in time, and the contrary to sect light is the one which holds the darkness.

Roughly then, the light corresponds with the soul, and the darkness with the body. This is a very rough and ready simplification of the kind of mysticism associated with these concepts.

Now with calculation of these lots what we need to do is recognise that the sect light is the thing which carries the Light of the given moment, and the contrary to sect light represents the 'darkness' of that time, or the 'anti-light' or the light of another polarity. Keeping in mind that light = soul and dark/anti-light = body, then we quickly recognise implicit in the formula is the promotion of the light for the lot associated with soul and the promotion of dark/anti-light with the lot associated with the body - PRECISELY because those lots are the significators for that balance of light as dictated through the personal lens of the ascendant.

For this reason, unlike in dry mathematics, we need to weigh up conditions here. Although we present these things as a formula, in truth what they are measurements - we are measuring the Light from the Darkness and projecting that measurement through the personal lens of the horoscope to see how this balance is represented in the personal - in other words the mystical quality of these calculations are to make the transpersonal brought into the mindset of the personal so that we can use them.

Now if you are ignorant of the mysticism and supernatural quality that is inherent in the symbolism of these quite mystic points represent then of course this just looks like shifting the variables unnecessarily - but this is a view solely borne from ignorance of the mindset and careful spiritual qualities from which these techniques are derived. The more materialist the astrologer and connected only to the physical, the more likely they are to not understand or appreciate the implicit mysticism of the Hermetic Lots and their connection to the Hermetic mystery cults, and so the more likely to fumble and mishandle their subtle interpretive value.

Note that in my configuration of the formula that we start with the sect light of favour in the chart. This is how these measurements are often described by the authors - this is because they knew to start from the abundance (ie, the light of the chart, ie, the soul) and subtract from the this the 'anti light' or the 'dark' which is the contrary to sect light - or, more precisely, to project the shadow from the light source through the ascendant to see where it falls.

It is not surprising that many do not understand this, however, it is simply incorrect to suggest that those who do are not explaining their methods. One need only drop their hard science algorithm mindset and recognise that what we're dealing with is the weighing and measuring and projection of spiritual qualities.

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Unread 08-17-2013, 06:35 AM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

[deleted non-astrological comments - Moderator]

My part of fortune is conjunct my part of eros.

Part of fortune shows what methods are most agreeable to attaining spiritual success...

part of eros shows the people who will help you.

The symbol for the degree for these parts, at 25 Gemini, is about "pruning tress" - DISCERNMENT.

When I made a discernment about someone and steered from their knowledge, I stumble across someone who has helped me in gaining astrological...spiritual... knowledge

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Unread 08-17-2013, 07:05 AM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjorkstrand View Post
Just use sedna.

Jim
</p>
Maybe, but why just limit to one? :P

South node and north node can show previous to future-needed karmic growth... asc/desc shows who now to whom to... sometimes more than one symbol is needed to show subtle variations of a theme.. (just like one might use 3rd house and mercury to represent communication.. with aspects being different manifestations of communication/thinking skills) because people are complex, multiple symbols help to hone in on the complete picture..

Re-Incarnation is an important and waaaaay underrated part of our chart...


We can not move on unless we know who we are and where we need to go..
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Unread 08-17-2013, 07:23 AM
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Re: Part of Reincarnation?

What do you think of the differences in the parts using placidus verses Vedic?

The different systems would give different degrees/signs for the 2 different systems.

Would then difference have any special meaning in one system verses the other?
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