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Fixed stars, asteroids and other cosmic objects For astrology talks on fixed stars, Chiron, Sedna, Eris or any other newly discovered or little known cosmic object.


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  #26  
Unread 07-14-2009, 09:13 AM
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Pallas-trine-Mars Pallas-trine-Mars is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Divine, I think you're looking at this too abstractly and are missing the basic reasons as to why Chiron and Virgo is a misstep. I think that in an ideal zodiac each sign has a ruler that fits it obviously. For instance, I don't think Venus needs any help ruling the sign Libra considering that it seems to me that they have the same nature and significations: Romance, social rules, harmony, aesthetics.. Saturn is perfectly like Capricorn: Concerned with the objective rules of reality, tending toward pessimism and age, disunity, dealing with daily practical affairs enduringly, no real need for assistance (the way Saturn prefers it BTW!) Now the way you look at it, Chiron NEEDS Mercury's help, and it's still not good enough because neither of them really has anything to do with Sixth house matters (see my earlier comment).

As for this supposed "proof" that Mercury has worked as ruler of Virgo, I won't force anyone to explain it to me as I'm stilll refining my own techniques to prove astrology's worth (but do explain it if you choose to!); but I'm still skeptical, if Mercury has actually been having any influence at all over Virgo, it could just because of the fact that Mercury's has exaltation in Virgo and in my experience exaltations behave a bit like sign rulers, even if they're rulership over that sign isn't even strong enough to get that sign to behave like the planet in question. I don't believe Mercury has domicile rulership over Virgo at all.

And as for Clow having "proven" the Chiron works, I still disagree (surprised?) I don't think she had 50 charts in that book, and they weren't all about demonstrating Chiron over Virgo, but there was one case were she had the natal chart of a physician where Chiron was placed in the first house in Sagittarius and the Sun and MC were in Virgo. Well the 6th house fell in Taurus and it's becoming more and more popularly believed that Ceres, which was ALSO in Sagittarius and the first house (at least when I figured out the date of this chart), is the ruler of Taurus.

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...Of the 2700 astronomers attending the conference (out of some 10,000 professionals worldwide), less than 500 actually voted on the resolution, which was put to the assembly on the last day of the conference. Not much of a consensus.
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-Rob Tillett on the 2006 IAU General Assembly and the precedent to declare Pluto a "Dwarf Planet"


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Last edited by Pallas-trine-Mars; 07-14-2009 at 09:15 AM.
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  #27  
Unread 07-14-2009, 11:08 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Divine, I think you're looking at this too abstractly
You can't be serious. My whole post is about how my whole life experience validates this theory, how can you call my actual real life experience "abstract"? It's pretty easy for you to declare that neither Chiron nor Mercury have anything to do with the 6th house, when you refuse to look for the connection.

The connection is, the mind-body connection. Traditional medicine, specifically Western, was late in seeing what the Ancient Chinese saw as a basic connection between the body and the mind. Chiron's physical body as a man's body, connected with a horse's body, shows the new age holistic healing's philosophy of treating the body and mind as ONE.

Virgo, is the Virgin, and is known for being picky, as a virgin is discriminating in who they will have sex with. This has basic, hygienic, health benefits, as they cant contract any disease sexually. You will see the mind-body connection here, in that there are some std's which affect the brain. And there are some brain disorders which may make one have a sex addiction, lwhich affect sexual behavior, leading to higher chance of std's. Either way, one's mental capacity(mercury), is critically interconnected with one's physical capacity, or health.

Mercury rules the hands, and much of healing is done with hands, how's that for a connection to the 6th house, Pallas? Imagine a surgeon working on you with no hands? A chiropractor or massage therapist with no hands? Have you ever been to a dentist with no hands? Ironically, "hand" is Ms.Clow's middle name, and she pointed out that Chiron means "hand".

It takes a healthy mind to maintain a healthy body. A disorderly mind, will be reflected physically,"as above, so below", (Mercury). It takes intelligence, wisdom, and a clean mind for someone to be a Virgin. The mind is what separates humans from animals. Only the mind, the higher part of the body, can control our lower, sexual instincts of the animal body. Now, what mythic figure best represents that?

Chiron, the Centaur, the Healer. That's the basic connection between Chiron and the 6th house of Health. Chiron also represents the Shaman, who was the healer of ancient tribes, who taught them how to pick and discriminate between poisonous plants, and plants used for healing. I had a much more detailed answer, but this about somes it up. The connections are endless, and easy to see, if anyone is open-minded enough to look. What you're saying Pallas is, "I dont see the connection between the healer and the house of health". There wouldnt be anything wrong with that, if you hadnt come with a tone like people dont know what they're talking about. If you dont think Mercury, which rules intelligence, has anything to do with health, or healing, try go going to an unintelligent doctor. And since hands have nothing to do with healing either, let's see you go find a doctor with no hands. Chiron's main reputation in mythology was the Healer, that's enough for it to be considered and understood as the ruler of the house of Health.

Last edited by divine g; 07-14-2009 at 11:21 AM.
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  #28  
Unread 07-14-2009, 05:43 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

It is important to remember that astrology has a very long history that pre-dates the Roman (and hence modern) understanding of their god Mercury and the planet that supposedly manifests his attributes.

The precursor of Mercury among the Babylonians, who first invented the cultural astronomy that morphed into our astrology, was a goddess named Nidaba or Nisaba. She was actually a good fit with our modern concept of Virgo.

Here are some excerpts about her from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidaba :

"The god of wisdom, Enki, organized the world after creation and gave each deity a role in the world order. Nisaba was named the scribe of the gods, and Enki then built her a school of learning so that she could better serve those in need. She keeps records, chronicles events, and performs various other bookwork related duties for the gods....
"She is considered the teacher of both mortal scribes and other divine deities. In the Babylonian period, she was replaced by the god Nabu, who took over her functions. As the goddess of knowledge, she is related to many other facets of intellectual study and other gods may turn to her for advice or aid. She is also associate with grain, reflecting her association with an earth goddess mother."

From Nabu we get to the Egyptian scribe Thoth, the Graeco-Egyptian Hermanusbis, the Greek Hermes, and Roman Mercury.

Note that the constellation Virgo is depicted holding a stalk of grain, the star Spica.

It is hard to find a comparable historical link for Chiron with Virgo.
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  #29  
Unread 07-14-2009, 06:27 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

i look ae the physical layout with chiron.it goes inside saturns orbit and almost to uranus's orbit. so i attribute it to aquarius/capricorn co ruler. and the strong mercury influence in chiron , i see as from the higher octave of mercury,i.e. uranus.

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  #30  
Unread 07-14-2009, 10:01 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Originally Posted by divine g View Post
You can't be serious.
I'm totally serious. Theory and philosophy is not proof, it's speculation.

"Wounded healer" is just a popular label assigned to Chiron by new agers. The truth is that Chiron is much more than this, it's like calling Jupiter the "planet of expansion," Jupiter is more than that and to label it as such is misleading to ignorant novice astrologers who otherwise wouldn't think to research Jupiter's workings on their own.

Chiron repesents things like stress disorders, mental pain, psychological disorders, anguish, grief... "Wounded healer" comes from the fact that Chiron's placement involves one of these issues that the person must resolve or "heal" within their life. It doesn't represent physical health, diets, surgeries... It doesn't represent work, order. In fact, neither it nor Mercury does, so neither planet individually or together works in a way that it is a match with the 6th house or the sign Virgo. These are MY experiences, and they aren't just my own, not that my opinions will have any affect on you.

http://www.moonsweb.com/ast/chiron.shtml
http://www.aquarianage.org/west/planets/ch-nat01.html
http://www.astrotherapy.eu/Chiron.htm
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/chiron21.5.html
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/chiron.html
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...Of the 2700 astronomers attending the conference (out of some 10,000 professionals worldwide), less than 500 actually voted on the resolution, which was put to the assembly on the last day of the conference. Not much of a consensus.
"

-Rob Tillett on the 2006 IAU General Assembly and the precedent to declare Pluto a "Dwarf Planet"


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Last edited by Pallas-trine-Mars; 07-24-2009 at 12:06 AM.
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  #31  
Unread 07-14-2009, 10:11 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

And for the record, for anyone else here, I am an actual astrologer with several repeat clients. I can usually tell someone's sign just by looking at their picture. Chiron also rules astrology, and its placement in my 10th house predicted I would someday make a living at it. The roof over my head, this brand new laptop im on, and this working internet connection are very real, not theoretical. I actually make money from my gifts at understanding astrology. evolutionmuse, hope to hear from you soon, thank you for your contribution to the forum.

Last edited by waybread; 07-20-2009 at 10:29 PM. Reason: personal attack deleted
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  #32  
Unread 07-14-2009, 10:38 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

[personal attack deleted]
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...Of the 2700 astronomers attending the conference (out of some 10,000 professionals worldwide), less than 500 actually voted on the resolution, which was put to the assembly on the last day of the conference. Not much of a consensus.
"

-Rob Tillett on the 2006 IAU General Assembly and the precedent to declare Pluto a "Dwarf Planet"


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Last edited by waybread; 07-20-2009 at 10:30 PM.
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  #33  
Unread 07-20-2009, 10:34 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

We all know the old saying, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." I'd encourage anyone with an interest in Ceres, Chiron, or other bodies simply to work with them extensively and to do some detailed research. Then get those results out to the astrological community, either via the web, a book, or article. After all, there was a time when nobody used the "new" outer planets Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto; but over time, some consensus developed when certain ways of interpreting these planets appeared to yield consistent results.
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  #34  
Unread 07-21-2009, 04:14 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Originally Posted by dhundhun View Post
Chiron hurts; hurts badly; so badly that there is no recovery. Wounded healer is image of Chiron.

Virgo (and sixth house) is more related to skill and perfection. People do gain skills and do perfect.

I would more associate Chiron with Pisces/Aris Junction (and twelvth/first house), where the wounded guy has to remember wound and start life with remaining unwounded part.

This is as if telling 13th sign, something between Pisces and Aris. Or 13th house, something between 12th house and 1st house.
I agree. When Chiron conjuncted my 5th house Mercury in Aquarius, I broke my ankle while hiking. [Mercury rules walking and Aquarius rules the ankles.]
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  #35  
Unread 07-21-2009, 06:01 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

I deleted this post due to it being repetitive.
Lilllybelle

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  #36  
Unread 07-21-2009, 09:35 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Mercury is suitable for ruling two signs, Virgo as a sign is known for it's analyzing skills, and mental sifting of information, useful, not useful, where to put this, and how best to use this energy. A very good evaluator in that sense. Virgo is an introspective energy and Mercury has both rulership and exaltation in Virgo, and provides Mercury with more concentration, than it has in distractible, extrovert, and playful Gemini. Balancing mind and body is the archetypal meaning behind Virgo. The body is neglected over the mind or vice versa. Mercury still displays a restless nature in Virgo, with it's need to purify, develop new skills, and to categorize information. The sign is busy and useful, and needs to be productive as all earth signs do. The ultimate aim of Virgo is to live a useful existence, and to be of meaningful service. According to Jung, Hermes represents the light that the intellect sheds to illume the dark world. In Virgo our analytical and reasoning powers help us shed light upon difficult situations, we order the personality in Virgo. I personally think Mercury has a powerful rulership over Virgo.

According to Mythic Astrology the astrology chart for the discovery of Chiron has the Asc at 26 Sagittarius, with Pluto on the Midheaven and Chiron is a singleton, retrograde in Taurus and in the 4th house. Every other planet is above the horizon! Mythologically Chiron is depicted as an outsider, he is half human, half animal. Recently I run a lot of charts through the computer looking for Chiron individuals, because I will be honest I do not fully grasp the meaning of Chiron in the individual chart. I know it is very similar to Saturn, in that it can create wounds in an area of the personality. The individual is particularly defensive around those wounds. I have observed that there can be a self-defeatist attitude here. The difference between Saturn and Chiron, is that I personally think Chiron has a close connection with Uranus, he doesn't conform to any tradition. Chiron is caught between Saturn and Uranus. This suggests a way we can interpret Chiron in the natal chart.

In Myth there is a profound connection between Chiorn and Uranus. Imagine watching this poignant tale in a movie, Chiron is wounded unintentionally, it is very unfair and unjust. Chiron is famously known as one of the greatest healers of all. Yet he could not heal himself. Prometheus in the second part of this tale is suffering for rebelling against (Zeus) and stealing fire from the Gods for the good of mankind, his liver is being eaten daily, and his liver regenerates and there is no release from his pain. His rebellion and his idealism for human beings, cost him dearly. I think there is link between both of these figures, they share similar ideals and both suffer. Prometheus suffering is brought upon himself through his own rebellion. Yet, Chiron is just a tragic accident, that happened to one of the more kinder centaurs, who was special through his healing gifts, and his immortality - which he now cursed. The famous story concludes when Prometheus and Chiron exchange places, and two fates meet. Zeus/Jupiter the God of wisdom and higher order agreed to this exchange. Chiron was honoured with a place in the sky as the constellation Saggittarius...roll credits, where are the tissues.

The link to Sagittarius is through the constellation and the "teacher" archetype. And the obvious fact that Chiron is half centaur, half man, like the zodiac sign of Sagittarius. However, Chiron distanced himself from the violent, sexual libido's of his centaur race, he was more civilised. The Virgo rulership is obviously through healing the body itself, and purification (Virgo) developing healing skills, working with herbs and other medicines. There is also an inventive streak in Chiron. What needs to be remembered is that Chiron wondered into the solar system and can easily wonder back out, and perhaps this is why it is best not to give rulership to Chiron in the natal chart. I can see the interrelationship in mythology, and in astrology we can associate different astrological attributes to him and nicely 'label' him as ruler of Virgo or Sagittarius.

Chiron possesses knowledge of astrology, mathematics, and healing techniques. Chirion is alternative healing. Chiron can point to illness in the body relating to a poison, and I have observed this personally. Currently I have my progressed Moon conjunct Chiron in Taurus in the 9th house of my chart. My mother (Moon) has just been on holiday, putting a deposit down on an apartment. Since her return she has become very ill with Swine Flu, and she has a lot of medical problems anyway, and this illness is only compounding them. I had to fend off her negative comments towards me yesterday. I definitely relate Chiron to illness, and something in the "psyche" or "body" that needs healing. I think Chiron is the most difficult to interpret because we cannot "label" this minor planet/asteroid. I would personally leave Chiron out of rulership. Chiron is often referred to as the Maverick - Independent of behavior and thought. He might not sit easily in our perfect little system.

It is interesting in Modern times to learn who has taken the Chiron symbol.

The Royal Army Vetinar - Responsible for the provision and care of animals.



Delta Lambda Phi - This group has also taken the Logo. The group represents gay, bisexual and progressive men. I do believe symbols are powerful, and hold emotional impact. A group often viewed as outsiders have chosen a symbol that represents a civilised, intellectual and progressive nature. Mavericks with great independence in thought and action.

Last edited by Shining Ray; 07-21-2009 at 10:09 AM.
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  #37  
Unread 07-21-2009, 06:43 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

As others have noted above, assigning a modern ruler to a sign on the basis of an affinity--whether modern or mythological--is only part of the story.

I don't think traditional astrologers would ever be convinced because there just isn't room in their system of dignities and debilities for new planets. They're "full up", so to speak.

But even modern astrologers who work with modern planets will often use so-called "accidental" house cusp rulers or "lords." Here a simple affinity is beside the point. One has to see how an asteroid or new planet works in action. The principle here is that if you wish to see how a specific house works [and notably if it is untenanted] you look to the planet that rules the sign on the house cusp. Its own position by house and aspects will tell you a lot about how that specific house functions. So a lot of research is needed. For example, if I arbitrarily assign Chiron as the ruler of Sagittarius and have Sag as the sign on my 2nd house cusp, I would then look to Chiron by its own house placement [possibly in the 11th] and aspects [possibly squaring Venus and trining Saturn] to get some sense of how money works in my life.

If I run this kind of diagnostic on 100 charts of known individuals and find Chiron works pretty well, then I've got something. But if it doesn't seem to work, let alone if it doesn't work as well as Jupiter, the traditional ruler of Sag, then I chuck the notion of Chiron as Sag's modern ruler.

Ditto if I try out Chiron as the ruler of Virgo, or any other sign.

Some horary astrologers do use modern planets, so again, you would have to see how Chiron works in interpreting horary charts.

Also, all planets have positive and negative expressions, even the "benefics." So it is important to delineate the negative as well as the positive.

Also, we have to be careful about using the houses of "birth charts" of the discovery of planets and asteroids as saying anything meaningful about them. Until modern satellite/space telescopes were developed, all new bodies had to be discovered using night-time observations or [subsequently] photographs. With the early-discovered asteroids like Ceres, the available technology of the 1800s meant that the asteroids had to be discovered close to the zenith/MC. You just couldn't have a heavenly body discovery with the sun above or near the horizon because the sunlight would render it invisible.

Also, many new bodies probably need several discovery charts, not just one. For example, Pluto was "known" due to its gravitational pull prior to its actual observation. The photographs on which its 1930 discovery was based were taken at night (naturally!) but then the astronomer found it on the photos when he studied them later the next day. Then he had to rephotograph that sector of the heavens to ensure that Pluto moved relative to the fixed stars in its visual field.

So new modern rulers are a real possibility. But they require a lot of research for a convincing case to be made. In terms of mythology, Ceres works far better for me as the modern ruler of Virgo, as the links were made explicit by some of the classical authors like Manilius.
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  #38  
Unread 07-25-2009, 11:35 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

By the way, is it only my opinion that Chiron does not signify causality of wounds? Chiron is doing so much in the present triple conjunction with Jupiter and Neptune...it's deep and healing!

Thanks for many insights and illuminations, Shining Ray!
Are you the astrologer at the fairgrounds, and
how do I get there for a reading?


Seriously, these points you make are well-taken and your thoughts and words shine. Merc/Virgo
energies and qualities of organization, clarity and mind/body balancing are delightful insights: Mercury illuminates.

Quote:
Mercury is suitable for ruling two signs, Virgo as a sign is known for it's analyzing skills, and mental sifting of information, useful, not useful, where to put this, and how best to use this energy. A very good evaluator in that sense. Virgo is an introspective energy and Mercury has both rulership and exaltation in Virgo, and provides Mercury with more concentration, than it has in distractible, extrovert, and playful Gemini. Balancing mind and body is the archetypal meaning behind Virgo. The body is neglected over the mind or vice versa. Mercury still displays a restless nature in Virgo, with it's need to purify, develop new skills, and to categorize information. The sign is busy and useful, and needs to be productive as all earth signs do. The ultimate aim of Virgo is to live a useful existence, and to be of meaningful service. According to Jung, Hermes represents the light that the intellect sheds to illume the dark world. In Virgo our analytical and reasoning powers help us shed light upon difficult situations, we order the personality in Virgo. I personally think Mercury has a powerful rulership over Virgo.


And thank you, Waybread, for your comment re: ancient astrologers assigning affinity, and suggesting modern rulership of Virgo by Ceres...

wouldn't others agree here?

Anyway, thanks so very much.

C1
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  #39  
Unread 07-26-2009, 03:43 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Quote:
As others have noted above, assigning a modern ruler to a sign on the basis of an affinity--whether modern or mythological--is only part of the story.

I don't think traditional astrologers would ever be convinced because there just isn't room in their system of dignities and debilities for new planets. They're "full up", so to speak.
I'd like to expand on this. Firstly, mythological or modern "affinity" isn't even a part of the story of the original philosophy of sign rulership. I can really only think of one planet who has something that could be considered "affinity" with its signs or rulership.

However, the traditional system being "full up" isn't the big reason behind the resistance, but because there's no good reason to cut one sign from one planet considering both signs the Five planets rule are assigned to them for the exact same reasons. Gemini and Virgo were given to Mercury for the same reasons, so saying Mercury no longer fits with Virgo means it no longer fits with Gemini, since the same reasoning was given for both assignments. If that's the case, then Mercury isn't fit to rule anything, and should just fall off the map entirely. Hope that makes sense.
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Unread 07-26-2009, 04:07 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

KnS, do you refer the the following traditional scheme of planet/sign rulerships?

For anyone unfamiliar with it, visualize it as a branching system, with sun/Leo and Moon/Cancer at the head, and then planets being placed in descending order according to their spatial distance from the sun; and signs being ordered according to their temporal distance from the moon/sun-ruled pair.

sun=Leo///moon=Cancer
Mercury=Virgo, Gemini
Venus=Libra, Taurus
Mars=Scorpio*, Aries
Jupiter=Sagittarius, Pisces*
Saturn=Capricorn, Aquarius*

[*Infill, if you like the modern rulers of Scorpio, Pisces, and Aquarius.] So for modern astrologers, this scheme doesn't mean you couldn't tag on a modern ruler, as well; as was done when Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus were discovered.
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Unread 07-26-2009, 05:37 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Quote:
KnS, do you refer the the following traditional scheme of planet/sign rulerships?
Yep, that's the one.

Your visualization, while accurate, shouldn't be confused with the whole of the reasoning behind the scheme. Not saying you said that, but people generally seem to see patterns and think "that's it?".

Quote:
So for modern astrologers, this scheme doesn't mean you couldn't tag on a modern ruler, as well; as was done when Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus were discovered.
While it may be something modern astrologers are able to do, the problem with it is it's disingenuous at best. Though, that's the reason you have the whole "great debate" and whatnot.
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Unread 07-26-2009, 11:01 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

(seems flame wars are common on Chiron threads -- irony), it just seems to me that an affinity is pretty blatant proof of a rulership. If I may use the example, it's like parenthood, if a child (sign) is adopted by a parent (ruler), though the two might be different in many ways but the pairing seems to work out in a way that is beneficial or if good enough rationalizations are made, then of course the child will see the adoptive parent as its 'rightful' parent. But this isn't quite the case. As the child grows, suppose it starts showing behaviors and resemblances similar to its biological parent (affinity/modern ruler)? Just because that parent wasn't there doesn't mean that the person never made any contribution to that child's life, since, obviously, this is where these traits come from. It can't just be a coincidence when you have a sign and a planet that are a carbon-copy of one another.

As for traditional rulerships, well, they aren't perfect. If they were astrology probably wouldn't have become such a detested thing by people who'd consider themselves "science-minded". Many ancient theoretical theories like bounds have fallen to the wayside because they just don't really seem to work. Triplicities were assigned just making use of what they had, how much since does it make to assign the water signs exclusively to Mars? They make all sorts of justification of it, and yet ultimately the truth is Mars was all that was left. Who knows? The moderns might have more than just domicile and exaltation dignity after all, the traditional dignities weren't just put together overnight, it took time and many different cultures contributed to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waybread
I agree. When Chiron conjuncted my 5th house Mercury in Aquarius, I broke my ankle while hiking. [Mercury rules walking and Aquarius rules the ankles.]
Aren't broken body parts a Mars/Saturn/Uranus issue? And walking also since it requires muscles? But yeah, the 3rd house is sometimes called the "House of short-distance travel" I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi
I can really only think of one planet who has something that could be considered "affinity" with its signs or rulership...

...Gemini and Virgo were given to Mercury for the same reasons, so saying Mercury no longer fits with Virgo means it no longer fits with Gemini, since the same reasoning was given for both assignments. If that's the case, then Mercury isn't fit to rule anything, and should just fall off the map entirely. Hope that makes sense.
And which ruler would that be?

There's no black and white, only darker and lighter shades of gray. Kai, the reason modern/psychological astrologers even use different techniques is because we're not afraid to think differently than the old authors. At any rate, explain to me what it is you think these 2 reason for the assignations are and why they should essentially mean we've got no choice but to throw rulership schemes out the window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C1
And thank you, Waybread, for your comment re: ancient astrologers assigning affinity, and suggesting modern rulership of Virgo by Ceres...

wouldn't others agree here?
Nope, I disagree. I'm not impressed by mythological names and I don't think labels are a good way to decide what goes where. We know the names that the Greek and later the Romans gave the planets, but differing cultures gave them names of different Gods who stood for different things. Using names to understand the planets is like deciding whether you like a person or not because of their name -- you can't judge a person by their name, you need to 'get a feel' for who that person is, their essence, get to know them, see how they work and what they do from your own experience, not decide what kind of person they are because of their name. There's an asteroid Pallas, an asteroid Athene and an asteroid Minerva. These are all essentially the same deity, but I'd bet a million dollars if I had it that they all work differently in astrology, probably even differently than their myths would lead you to believe. While I'm sure it does work a little bit some times, exalting myths and labels as astrological evidence seems misleading and disreputable to me, but I know you guys aren't going to change.

As for Ceres, it seems to me that her main myth, or maybe the one that people who have neglected mythology would know is more about the fact that she tore up Heaven and Hell to find what happened to Persephone when she was kidnapped than the fact that she was the goddess that ruled plant life. She was never considered a goddess of health or work, though, so as far as that she doesn't seem to have a 6th house connection. I doubt any astrological connection between Ceres and Virgo far less than the supposed one of Chiron and Virgo, and that's A LOT of doubt.
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Last edited by waybread; 07-26-2009 at 09:09 PM. Reason: attacking comments deleted
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Unread 07-26-2009, 11:28 AM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Quote:
Originally Posted by C1 View Post
By the way, is it only my opinion that Chiron does not signify causality of wounds? Chiron is doing so much in the present triple conjunction with Jupiter and Neptune...it's deep and healing!

Thanks for many insights and illuminations, Shining Ray!
Are you the astrologer at the fairgrounds, and
how do I get there for a reading?

Seriously, these points you make are well-taken and your thoughts and words shine. Merc/Virgo
energies and qualities of organization, clarity and mind/body balancing are delightful insights: Mercury illuminates.

And thank you, Waybread, for your comment re: ancient astrologers assigning affinity, and suggesting modern rulership of Virgo by Ceres...

wouldn't others agree here?

Anyway, thanks so very much.

C1
Ha ha the astrologer with a crystal ball at the fairground. These are just thoughts, and any one of us could be wrong. None of us can claim to be an authority on Chiron, that doesn't mean we can't play around with ideas, but no-one is an authority on Chiron on this thread just many heads with lots of input.
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Unread 07-26-2009, 07:20 PM
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Kaiousei no Senshi Kaiousei no Senshi is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Quote:
As for traditional rulerships, well, they aren't perfect. If they were astrology probably wouldn't have become such a detested thing by people who'd consider themselves "science-minded".
We're getting back into this? Who says they aren't perfect? The people who want to change them to fit what they think is right? Keep in mind that these people probably don't understand why the rulerships were given in the first place, but think they were for affinity.

you attempt to blame the entirety of the scientific community's bad view of astrology on traditional rulerships. considering most scientists who have a bias against astrology probably don't even know what those are.

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Many ancient theoretical theories like bounds have fallen to the wayside because they just don't really seem to work.
Curious about this statement, since I and every other horary astrologer in the world uses the Terms.

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Triplicities were assigned just making use of what they had, how much since does it make to assign the water signs exclusively to Mars?
Stopping this one here. There are two versions of the triplicity scheme, one that makes sense and follows the rules and one that doesn't. The one that makes sense doesn't give the Water triplicity to Mars all the time.

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And which ruler would that be?
Mars

Quote:
There's no black and white, only darker and lighter shades of gray.
Talk about irrational. I would have thought by now we would have all agreed that astrology was completely black and white.

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Kai, the reason modern/psychological astrologers even use different techniques is because we're not afraid to think differently than the old authors.
And because they're mistaken before they even get out of the gate. I know you're not implying that modern/psychological astrologers knew of traditional techniques and then tried them and augmented them to come up with their own techniques. If that's the case then I'm going to have to ask to check your timetables because around the time psychological astrology was really kicking off there were only three traditional books that had been translated and published, and one of those books was second edition of another that had been released. So no, it's not that they weren't afraid to think differently, but because they didn't realize there were really rules in the first place and had to play it by ear.

Quote:
At any rate, explain to me what it is you think these 2 reason for the assignations are...
I'm not wasting my time explaining the domicile scheme again. It's probably on this forum about a billion times now and it's on the web in countless websites that don't discuss affinity.

Quote:
and why they should essentially mean we've got no choice but to throw rulership schemes out the window.
So, because it's old, you don't quite get it, and it doesn't have to do with affinity it's got to go out the window? I would say it's the lack of a structural core of rules that makes the scientific minded shun astrology, not the old ways of doing it, but that's just my opinion. Astrology has gotten rather chaotic and when you hear people talking about souls and karma and whatnot when discussing astrology, it becomes a lot like religion and a lot less like science. it was back then when traditional astrology was really strong that astrology was in the university, not now when pop astrology has all but tried to take over.

The lesson to get here is "if it's not broke, don't fix it"

Last edited by waybread; 07-26-2009 at 09:14 PM. Reason: quoted attacks & new personal attacks deleted
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Unread 07-26-2009, 07:48 PM
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Wink Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Um, WB,
Quote:
In terms of mythology, Ceres works far better for me as the modern ruler of Virgo, as the links were made explicit by some of the classical authors like Manilius.

...sounds good to me.

I hear you, SR; imho your thinking is right on!:
Quote:
These are just thoughts, and any one of us could be wrong. None of us can claim to be an authority on Chiron, that doesn't mean we can't play around with ideas, but no-one is an authority on Chiron on this thread just many heads with lots of input.
lol yes, chiron/virgo/ceres energy is roiling!
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Unread 07-26-2009, 09:53 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Pallas-trine-Mars, as I tried to explain in my previous posts (and apparently, not too well!) I don't think "affinity" alone is sufficient to assign a modern ruler. First off, the entire concept of affinity is pretty big and complex to the point of being messy, with lots of overlap. For example, we get the concept of Virgo and the 6th house as concerned with health. Yet if one really delves into medical astrology, all of the different body parts and illnesses have their own planetary, sign, and/or house rulers. If I have a headache, for example, that's a Mars, Aries, and/or Mercury matter because Mars and Aries rule the head. I can't look to Virgo or the 6th for this matter. Similarly, Virgo and the 6th rule all kinds of things that don't seem at all "Chirotic", such as grain stores, servants, and dogs.

Affinity between a planet and sign can never be 100%, so to me it is a question of looking to the best fit.

One of the most eye-opening insights in my own (now) 18+ years of studying astrology, which came pretty late in the day for me, was the study of planetary rulerships as they are identified with most phenomena. My steady desk companion is Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book (American Federation of Astrologers). This catalogue is still in print, though somewhat out of date as it was published in 1971, at a pre-Chiron research period. He includes Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. Deborah Houlding's traditional astrology book, The Houses: Temples of the Sky is also really good on rulerships.

I don't wish to start a big debate over the meaning of "rulers" here--at least 3 different meanings are in very common usage in astrology: (1) planet/sign affiliations, (2) the planet ruling a house cusp ("lord"), and (3) planet/phenomenon affiliations. But just about anything you can think of has a planet, sign or house ruler; and some of these go back to classical times.

Modern astrologers don't seem to use catalogues of planetary rulers a whole lot unless they are involved with horary, mundane, or electional astrology; but I wouldn't just discard them because I have found them to be really helpful, including in natal chart interpretation. For example, if someone wants advice on his best career choice, you have to know which careers are ruled by which planets, signs, and houses.

But a rulership really has to work across the spectrum of astrological practice. So if I work with "accidental" house cusp rulers (#2, above) I need more than just a general correspondence between a planet and a sign. I need to know that the planet ruling a house cusp is really going to say something about the house in question via the ruler's own house and aspects.

I think mythology is very important in astrology even today. Certainly the astrologer-psychologists like Liz Greene use it. But in ancient times, planets took on their meanings and rulerships in relation to the narratives about the gods that were their namesakes. For example, in modern astrology I associate Mars with aggression, initiative, and anger. Well, Mars as the god of war personified these qualities in Roman times. The young god Mercury was a bit of a liar and trickster in Graeco-Roman mythology, and astrologers ascribed these qualities to the planet that bears his name.

So it would be a huge break with astrology's intellectual heritage to separate its planets and asteroids from the myths that surround them. A few astrologers tried to make this rupture [Ruperti, Cycles of Becoming, for one] but not too successfully, in my opinion.

I used to pretty much ignore Chiron until I had that hiking accident, described above. It was the one blatant transit that correlated with my broken ankle. I think Chiron's physical wounds are very real. Psychological wounds are very real to individuals experiencing them. In mythology I believe the centaur Chiron's wounds were also very painful.
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Unread 07-26-2009, 10:14 PM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

For example, we get the concept of Virgo and the 6th house as concerned with health. Yet if one really delves into medical astrology, all of the different body parts and illnesses have their own planetary, sign, and/or house rulers. If I have a headache, for example, that's a Mars, Aries, and/or Mercury matter because Mars and Aries rule the head. I can't look to Virgo or the 6th for this matter. Similarly, Virgo and the 6th rule all kinds of things that don't seem at all "Chirotic", such as grain stores, servants, and dogs.

EXACTLY. That is a very clear and succinct explanation for WHY we cannot just throw out said rulership and replace it with a new one, just like that. When people say " I AM a Virgo, and I really FEEL that the ruler is Chiron not Mercury", it really bugs me. I think it takes WAY more than that personal anecdote to change hundreds of years of an assigned rulership. I think Frank made a very important point as well, when he suggested people look to hundreds of past horary charts with known outcomes, and replace the significators of mercury with chiron, and see if they still work.

Last edited by katydid; 07-26-2009 at 10:16 PM.
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Unread 07-27-2009, 08:41 AM
divine g divine g is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

I truly dont understand what's so hard to figure out here. There are 12 signs, Mercury already rules a sign, he's the undisputed ruler of Gemini. No arguing there.

But why wouldn't a Virgo's testimony not hold any weight? Who is anyone to tell a Virgo how they're supposed to feel? That's like going to a doctor because you FEEL sick, and him telling you, well you don't LOOK sick, so you're not. Who's anyone to tell anyone else how they feel?

Chiron was multitalented, he was not only a healer, he was a teacher of many different sciences, as well as a trainer for warriors. He represents one of service to mankind in any way he could. That's what the 6th house is about. Chiron also taught astrology, and in many ways, an astrologer is like a doctor who uses mental analysis to pinpoint or diagnose the problem in someone's life. This falls in line with Virgo's association with critical analysis. t definitely takes a lot of Mercury's intelligence and precision to be a doctor, but having a healing touch takes more than cerebral power.

Why make this complicated? Just look at as many Virgo sun signs as you can, and see if you can find the common link. (I will post a link at the end of this). I find it interesting that Lance Armstrong, who beat CANCER(which modern medicine paints as an incurable wound) to come back and win so many times is a Virgo. Also, in the myth of Chiron, he was abandoned by his parents, that was one of his wounds. A Virgo with childhood wounds that never healed, does Michael Jackson ring a bell? (r.i.p.) It's interesting to note how many singers and authors are listed here, including Roald Dahl famous for writing children's books. I see a link here with the healing power of words through music(Gloria Gaynor, Bruce Springsteen,Ray Charles, Julio Iglesias) or words through comedy("laughter is the best medicine"-Dave Chapelle, Jimmy Fallon, Bill Murray).

Just check the list, and you'll see none of these Virgoes are strictly Mercury archetypes. As a Gemini, I will stand up and say leave Mercury to Gemini and give Virgo its own ruler. It can co-rule it since words have such healing/wounding power, but the fact that people can't see how Chiron, the Healer can't rule the 6th house of Health irks me to no end. The 6th house rules servants and service and all healers provide a service, some in multiple areas. Chiron also rules alternative medicine and herbal remedies, herbs which are harvested from the earth, and Virgo is an earth sign. The mind-body connection etc is represented physically by Chiron being a centaur, a man with a horse's lower body. So many of these Virgoes listed fit the archetype in the sense that they use the knowledge of their wounds to heal others, whether it be through music, writing, entertaining, not to mention people like my Virgo cousin, who decided in high school she wanted to be a doctor and became one.

Seriously people, keep things simple, and things will be easier to understand. I personally think Chiron rules the gut, right where the Chinese call the tan ti chien, the source of chi. Sometimes the answer is right in your gut, where you can reach into from personal experience, and this gut instinct is different from the brain's mercurial logic. If Virgoes themselves are going with their gut instinct that Chiron is their ruler, maybe we should listen.

http://www.saidwhat.co.uk/quotes/star_sign/virgo

Last edited by divine g; 07-27-2009 at 08:57 AM.
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Unread 07-27-2009, 08:54 AM
divine g divine g is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Also, look at house rulerships, and how they flow in descending order down the body, and see where the 6th would fit somewhere in the middle of the body, like 6 is halfway towards 12.

1-head
2-throat
3-arms,shoulders, hands
4- breasts,womb
5-heart
6*-"gut"
7-kidneys
8-genitals
9-hips,thighs
10-knees
11-ankles
12-feet

Ironically, Chiron the Centaur's human top half, meets his horse bottom half where? Right in the middle, right where the 6th house is in the house system.
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Unread 07-27-2009, 09:05 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Quote:
But why wouldn't a Virgo's testimony not hold any weight? Who is anyone to tell a Virgo how they're supposed to feel? That's like going to a doctor because you FEEL sick, and him telling you, well you don't LOOK sick, so you're not. Who's anyone to tell anyone else how they feel?
Because each Virgo would have their own personal anecdotes to tell about. What if there's another Virgo here who disagrees with you? What are we supposed to do then? Explode due to the paradox of a Virgoan disagreement on Virgo?

Quote:
Chiron was multitalented, he was not only a healer, he was a teacher of many different sciences, as well as a trainer for warriors. He represents one of service to mankind in any way he could. That's what the 6th house is about. Chiron also taught astrology, and in many ways, an astrologer is like a doctor who uses mental analysis to pinpoint or diagnose the problem in someone's life. This falls in line with Virgo's association with critical analysis. t definitely takes a lot of Mercury's intelligence and precision to be a doctor, but having a healing touch takes more than cerebral power.
Did you just use two Mercurial significations as evidence of Virgo's supposed Chirotic connection?

Quote:
As a Gemini, I will stand up and say leave Mercury to Gemini and give Virgo its own ruler.
I've said before, you can't do this because Gemini and Virgo were originally given to Mercury for the same reasons. You can't separate one sign from Mercury while trying to keep one sign with it.

Quote:
Just check the list, and you'll see none of these Virgoes are strictly Mercury archetypes.
You'll also find several Virgos who are really good Mercurial archetypes, just like you'll find Leos who aren't really good solar archetypes, but that doesn't mean the sun and Leo are no longer a rulership pair. You can't use a person (who is the manifestation of an entire chart) to exemplify the differences between a sign and its planet of rulership, plus, we all know that there are always differences between a sign and the planet that rules it because they are separate entities and are entitled to their individualities.

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The 6th house rules servants and service and all healers provide a service, some in multiple areas.
So does anyone else who has a business that doesn't trade in goods. I don't understand the point in picking at one distinct profession when others that are similar don't fit so well. The sixth house rules servants and service, so does Chiron also have connections with waiters, maids, plumbers and electricians who offer us their services?

Quote:
Chiron also rules alternative medicine and herbal remedies, herbs which are harvested from the earth, and Virgo is an earth sign.
Mercury rules medicine, and aren't most - if not all - medications herbal in some respect? I'm pretty sure that all medications contain a chemical that was originally harvested from some plant. Saying that Chiron rules alternative medicine and herbal remedies really creates a two-tiered system that really doesn't need to be there. Considering that Mercury was deemed the ruler of medicine when our now called "alternative medicines" were the only medicines. Before we had medicated mouthwash to fight gingivitus, we had mint and cloves to act as medication, which was Mercury way back when neither that mouthwash or Chiron existed.

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...not to mention people like my Virgo cousin, who decided in high school she wanted to be a doctor and became one.
Which, again, is very Mercurial as Mercury rules doctors, medicine, and even is symbolic of the life force itself in medical astrology. Seriously, almost everything you said about the Chiron/Virgo connection could just be used to justify Mercury/Virgo.

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Seriously people, keep things simple, and things will be easier to understand.
I completely agree.

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Ironically, Chiron the Centaur's human top half, meets his horse bottom half where? Right in the middle, right where the 6th house is in the house system.
That's also the place where we digest the grain that Virgo symbolizes...
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