Combustion (??)

boom said:

Reading about combustion always makes me When I first started reading about astrology online, I remember being so excited by the concept of conjunction with the Sun. But then I read about combustion in traditional astrology, it's like

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Might I suggest you stop perusing garbage web-sites.

Y'all make things much harder than it must be.

What gives Planets greater power?

Uh, okay, let's start simple....in Horary, when is Moon stronger?

Alright then, let's start really simple.

What does Sun signify? Well, among things (at least conceptually), strength, energy, vitality and such.

What is the source of that? The Sun's light.

So, then, Moon is stronger or more powerful.......when Increasing in Light.

Moon is weaker or less powerful when Decreasing in Light. The older terms are Waning (Decreasing) and Waxing (Increasing).

And that is based on...yes, synodic cycles. So as Moon elongates or moves away from Sun, Moon Increases in Light and becomes stronger, up until the Preventional Point....the Moon's opposition to Sun which gives us the Full Moon. From that point on, Moon is moving toward the Conjunctional...a conjunction with Sun (and a New Moon or possibly even an Eclipse).

Planets do the same. As Planets move away from Sun, they Increase in Light and become stronger, but as Planets move toward Sun, the Decrease in Light and become weaker.

And why is that?

What do [some of] the Planets do?

Well, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn hurl Rays and cast Light (Uranus, Neptun and Pluto do not).

While the Planets actually hurl Rays, they don't really cast Light, rather they reflect light from Sun.

And how do they reflect light from Sun? That depends on how close they are to Sun....and the farther away they are, the more light they absorb from Sun to reflect light back at other Planets.

Everyone see how that works?

It's hard to reflect light when you're over-shadowed by Sun.

From this Reality™ and matter of real physical science, we take our significations for the meaning of Combustion, which are what? Well, mainly we use them in Electional, Horary and Mundane/Mundane Event, but they hold the same meanings in Natal (and also Profections and Revolutions).

A Combust Significator in any chart is what? In fear; powerless; or helpless.

How do we make those distinctions? Is the Significator in fear? Or powerless? Or simultaneously in fear and powerless? We go back to our days as a Novice and we look at things we should have learned before ever looking at charts, like Reception, Dignity and Planetary Friends & Enemies.

Saturn and Sun are mortal enemies. They hate each other. When Saturn is Combust, that is sheer fear and terror....you can smell it, probably since Saturn wet his pants.

When Saturn is Combust in Leo, Saturn is cowering in the corner, helpless and filled with fear.

If Saturn signifies an animal, then you can say the same, and if it represents inanimate objects, whatever it is not going to function.

What about people? Sun as Primary, a Planet is Combust, then that person is hiding something from you. Take the signification from the House/Signs the Combust Planet rules. Aside from that, if the Primary is Combust, it could be this person is weak, meaning if the significator represents a friend, that friend probably won't be there for you, or it could be a person who has a physical disability, or an illness, or other problems.

Let's move on.

boom said:

I've also read that combustion can allow that particular planet to shine brightly, however it would lose rulership over it's house.

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No, that's wrong. Sun does not take over rulership, rather Sun becomes the focal point, at least for the Sign/House it is in.

boom said:

So say, if Mercury (which represents my 7th house of marriage) is combust, I might come across as intelligent (but I'm really not), but I'd never get married. But then, what happens to the house? I mean, it's not active? or...

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No, that's all wrong.

I'm sorry you got some bad intell.

There are a number of approaches to examine intellect, but none of them are mutually exclusive to Mercury.

The minimalist approach looks at the Ascendant Ruler and Mercury, and Planets in aspect. Others look at Moon, Mercury and the Ascendant Ruler (and aspected Planets). There are at least four Lots to consult as well. The point being that if in fact Mercury is Combust, that's only a teeny tiny part of the puzzle and not an 18"x24" glossy photograph.

So you say Mercury rules your 7th and is Combust, but you don't say where Mercury is.

You don't say who your Ascendant Ruler is, either.

Who wants to practice Astrology?

Isn't the 7th House Lawsuits and Conflicts? And you're whining about a Combust Mercury? You ought to be singing the Happy Happy Joy Joy Song. Of course, the 7th is also partners, so it could be that your partners are weak, meaning you end up doing all the work while your partners are useless. Then again, since the 7th signifies marital and such relationships, it might be that your women are weak, or weak as in ill...as in sickly. But if Virgo is the 7th, then Gemini is the 4th, so another possibility -- since Sun is one of the significators of father in a Day Chart -- might be that your father rose above his father --your maternal grandfather --- in terms of wealth or property or power, or as head of the family (if you have one of those kinds of families).

If Gemini is the 7th and Virgo the 10th, then a Combust Sun could indicate problems with your career -- perhaps way too much emphasis on career, or not, and that would be more likely the case if your MC fell in the Leo 9th House.

You might do better if you spent less time worrying about a fried brain and more time devoted to understanding the Signs, Houses and Planets as significators.

I have a combust Venus at 9° in Gemini, Sun at 14° in the same, 11 H. Lily says this is really a combustion degree, as it is within the 8°. Since Venus is moving faster than the Sun, could we draw any significance from the fact that Venus is "running away" from the Sun (and combustion)? Theoretically, it should not matter much in a NC, since it imprints the nativity at the moment of birth, period.

I just saw this thread, that's weird cos I was discussing combustion with someone by PM and I was putting forth a similar idea that Dr Farr is here.

rox said:

I have a combust Venus at 9° in Gemini, Sun at 14° in the same, 11 H. Lily says this is really a combustion degree, as it is within the 8°. Since Venus is moving faster than the Sun, could we draw any significance from the fact that Venus is "running away" from the Sun (and combustion)? Theoretically, it should not matter much in a NC, since it imprints the nativity at the moment of birth, period.

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The very opposite is happening. If Venus is at 9 degrees and the Sun at 14, then Venus is applying to the Sun and therefore applying further into combustion.

How about all these theories get tested in practice? Here's a chart of a native with combust venus (think that's even a partil there, although not cazimi by strict rules), in detriment, plus mercury sunbeamed and retro. Both in first house, (Aries). Mercury ruler 7th house, Venus secondary ruler of the same.

Hints: The native has had over 50 sexual partners, some which she formed relationships with (lasting from a day to 6 years); 3 official marriages ending in turrbulent divorces and custody battles; plus 3 common marriages, also ending pretty violently. From these she has 4 children, all from different fathers. There would have been more, but native experienced 6 miscarriages as well. First child was kidnapped by father and never retrieved. People familiar with native report experiencing her as volatile, dominant, extremely intelligent, yet at the same time seemingly aloof, cold, reserved and often surprisingly naive - apart from her children who are very attached to her and to whom she is authentically devoted, not sparing positive emotion and support. Subjectively, the native claims to be very giving to partners which they do not reciprocate but abuse, generally leeching off her. Finally, the native has no income and lives almost exclusively on financial aid from her father who is a high rank diplomat (exalted Sun? Venus rules second house).

Obviously a combust Venus does not signify no love or marriage, even when involved in the 7th house. But it does seem to destine every relationship to ultimate failure? Similarly, a retro sunbeamed Mercury does not seem to diminish intelligence.

Now I would love to hear your opinions on the intricacies of this chart.

Other than what you had mentioned.

Direct straight forward condition of Saturn at AC opposes DC, Pluto Rx, Uranus Rx & Mars Rx at DC (backward and forward over her lifetime). Mars and Pluto both rules 8th house while in Virgo, their ruler Mercury Rx in Aries mutual reception with Mars also backward forward. 7th house ruler Mercury Rx backward forward semi sextile Saturn & AC.

Can check the timing of Progressed Mercury direct, station, retrograde and how it aspect in perfected degrees to the major 3 planets near the 7th house to see if relevant to those events.

Yes, that is all there, but I fail to see your point when you only list what is obvious from the chart. Can you please elaborate?

SammyJo said:

Yes, that is all there, but I fail to see your point when you only list what is obvious from the chart. Can you please elaborate?

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I already pointed out what those 50 sexual partner and relationship from 1 day to 6 years could be indicated, that would be the motions of both the Mercury in Progressions to the natal planets in 7th house as well as the movements of those three retrogrades planets in 7th house.

Venus being in Aries combusted by Sun, the final dispositor is Mars & Mercury mutual reception, as well as the link to 8th house other people's money. Her own earning ability 2nd house is through other people Mars and Pluto at 7th house and 8th house. These key rulers as well as the mutual reception rule Mars in Virgo are all on Western side. In my opinion, the blessing must come from other people and through other people's resource, at other's people's mercy. If the 2nd house final dispositor was at eastern side then the power of accumulating wealth is at native her own hands. Her career MC, the final dispositor is combusted Venus in fall, Mars also Rx.

Aries sign planets, Mercury Rx, Sun and Venus are all in intercepted either great talent or great blockage. You can also see that 1st Mercury (ruler of the 7th) bi-quintile 6th Mars (ruler of the 8th and intercepted Aries) and bi-quintile Neptune, 6th Mars quintile 8th Neptune (modern ruler of the ascendant). Anyhow for a 10 mins reading. That's all. As I can't keep my interest on this person's chart for long.

SammyJo said:

Now I would love to hear your opinions on the intricacies of this chart

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I'll take a stab at this. Just to be clear, I use the Babylonian Fixed zodiac.

Venus is indeed invisible and will point to problems in the love-life, I think it is Mars though who is showing the destructiveness of these relationships and the willingness with which she has sexual relations. Mars is in his 2nd station and as a result will approach the native with extra-vigour and intemperance. While ruling Venus, he also rules the Lot of Marriage (assuming the accuracy of the birth-time, it is conjoined Venus to around a degree) and due to his northerly latitude he is actually setting astronomically. I have observed people with setting planets having real problems in the asepcts of life these planets manage, and Mars is almost solely responsible for how the native's relationships will fall out with his rulership of Venus and the Marriage Lot. With Saturn rising, and chart almuten by my reckoning, the native has had the life I would expect.

Herein lies the difficulty of narrowing down the effects of combustion: there is always more than one factor. I am beginning to think that it is entirely dependant on the planet's relation to the Sun and/or its domicile lord. I have seen too much evidence to suggest the ancients have erred in proclaiming that an invisible planet is destroyed completely.

Isn't this a topic in the traditional astrology forum? So shouldn't we be ignoring the existence of the outers (admittedly it is sometimes hard)? And especially the non-Ptolomaic aspects? Also according to trad. Mars is not in 6th but 7th house.

No doubt Mars is of particular influence in this chart considering his position and relations, but the main topic being combustion, I would be interested do you think Mars completely takes over and Venus is, in a manner of speaking annihilated, or absorbed by the Sun as someone said, or should it be considered so debilitated that all under its rule turns to ashes? If the latter was the case, how would it be possible for this person to have children at all, as the Moon is in Venus domicile, rules the 5th house, so under the circumstances wouldn't it be expected that a combust dispositor would give no children at all, or at best that there would be something wrong with them? Which in the real life of this individual is not the case.

In other words would it be more accurate to assume that some other planet took over and is surrogating in place of Venus (Mars? The Sun?), or do we conclude combustion isn't that horrid after all and the planet still functions only with great difficulty, or a specific "twist" to its conduct? Or am I missing the whole picture altogether?

SammyJo said:

No doubt Mars is of particular influence in this chart considering his position and relations, but the main topic being combustion, I would be interested do you think Mars completely takes over and Venus is, in a manner of speaking annihilated, or absorbed by the Sun as someone said, or should it be considered so debilitated that all under its rule turns to ashes? If the latter was the case, how would it be possible for this person to have children at all, as the Moon is in Venus domicile, rules the 5th house, so under the circumstances wouldn't it be expected that a combust dispositor would give no children at all, or at best that there would be something wrong with them? Which in the real life of this individual is not the case.

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Well firstly, I wouldn't see Venus as ruling the Moon nor would I look to the 5th sign to see the native's fecundity. Primarily I would look to Jupiter and his condition as well as the Moon's. Jupiter will produce children for this native as he is in a pivotal house from the ASC and is partile the Lot of Children, but him being managed completely by Venus as well as her ruling the Lot of Children probably shows the trouble the native has had with them. If you know the time-frame her child was kidnapped, I could check who was doing what at that time.

In other words would it be more accurate to assume that some other planet took over and is surrogating in place of Venus (Mars? The Sun?), or do we conclude combustion isn't that horrid after all and the planet still functions only with great difficulty, or a specific "twist" to its conduct? Or am I missing the whole picture altogether?

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Honestly, I can't be sure of the definitive answer. I have seen invisible planets behaving erratically as this Venus is, but I have also seen invisible planets performing fine. I sense it is vital that the invisible planet's dispositor is aspecting it and in a decent position itself.

The child was kidnapped in August/September 1994. It is dubious whether the father intended to kidnap it from the start, or came upon the idea later after the child was already with him for a while - don't have data for him but he is a somewhat prominent, well connected individual from what I am told. (This makes me think of the Sun, as male influence and power, overwhelming Venus again?)

Btw, this chart is blowing my mind, can't make heads or tails of it. It's somehow so circular! Mars, Venus, Mercury...like these three are chasing each others tail. Then if you dig deeper, you find Saturn and Jupiter creeping in from under the boards. lol

SammyJo said:

Isn't this a topic in the traditional astrology forum? So shouldn't we be ignoring the existence of the outers (admittedly it is sometimes hard)? And especially the non-Ptolomaic aspects? Also according to trad. Mars is not in 6th but 7th house.

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Exactly - note the heading at the top of the page

QUOTE

'...Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)...'

Lilly states about combustion:

http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/aphor/aphor.html

Christian Astrology, pages 298 ff. ... In every Question where Fortunes are Significators, hope well; but in Infortunes, .... fo the infortunes doth much afflict her, but none so powerfull as her Combustion

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23. Beware in all Judgments, when the Significator of the question is either Comust, or in Opposition to the Sun, he will then signifie nothing of the matter, no good, nor is be able to bring anything to perfection.

35. In all Questions, know there's not so great an affliction to the Moon, as when she is in Conjunction with the SUN; the ill aspects fo the infortunes doth much afflict her, but none so powerfull as her Combustion.

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It's not just horary that combust is such a hard factor as one finds out the more they study Lilly!

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/combust.html

http://wroskopos.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/combustion/

Note Arnold Swartznegger's natal horoscope where the lord of the 7th is combust:

Not only were there problems in his marriage with Maria, Arnold was once heavily involved with the first competitive woman bodybuilder Kellie Everts, a stripper whom Arnold caught in an affair with his best friend Franco Columbu!

There are many examples throughout history of how natal horoscopes manifested with combust planets!.

As Andre Barbault has noticed combustion is good.Armistices and peace treaties take place at Sun Júpiter or Sun Venus conjunctions.Mars Sun conjunctions initiate conflict

http://www.andrebarbault.com/combustion.htm

http://www.andrebarbault.com/occultations_astromond.htm

Personally I stand at the middle ground. Combustion does not completely removed the abilities of the planet. But there will still be malefic issues surrounding that planet. Demi Moore is a good example to study. She has both the positive manifestation of those planets yet you can also see some very malefic issues. You may think other configuration could also cause her issues. Her chart is interesting and many event charts and relationship date were recorded.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Moore,_Demi

I look at combustion more as absorption of the planetary influences by the Sun, rather than as destruction of those influences; at worst I simply use the Sun (and its meanings) in the place of the combusted planet, such as relative to aspects, etc...

dr. farr said:

I look at combustion more as absorption of the planetary influences by the Sun, rather than as destruction of those influences; at worst I simply use the Sun (and its meanings) in the place of the combusted planet, such as relative to aspects, etc...

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How would you approach delineating Mercury then considering he is invisible around 85% of the time? Also, what if Mercury and the Sun are in conjoining signs, what then?

My orb of combustion (absorption) is variable-for Mercury it extends only to 3 degrees (same for Moon and for Venus): beyond that orb (beyond 3 degrees) I do not consider Mercury as having been absorbed by the Sun; under 3 degrees, I use Sun indications mostly, modified by Mercury indications mixed in, for such a delineation (I do not use only the Sun and totally exclude the Mercurial in Mercury's combustion with the Sun) IN HORARY, if Mercury is under 3 degrees from the Sun, I use only the SUN as significator in that horary.
Conjoining signs make no difference (for me in this situation): if Mercury is combust but next to the Sun in the next sign, I use Sun with Mercurial modifications IN MERCURY'S SIGN, for the delineation of Mercury, while retaining the Sun in its own sign, for the delineation of the Sun.

Ok, thanks.

Do you see any disntinction between combustion and being under the beams? If so, would you use the standardised 15 - 17.5 degree limit, or the actual astronomical visibility?