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Mundane Astrology Discuss the astrology of towns, cities, states, provinces, countries, empires, and the world in general.


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Unread 04-24-2007, 02:42 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

It's not going to be too long now before Saturn exits his long period of exile through the signs of the luminaries, and enters Virgo, where he will still be peregrine for most of his journey, but at least he will get to recuperate some strength in his terms between 18 - 24 degrees.

What are your thoughts?

This will be the first time that Saturn has moved into a human sign since it left Gemini, representing the human collective, and the 911 twin towers disaster occured during that transit, and Saturn is structures.

Saturns passage into Virgo will bring his effect upon human females, and I wonder how this will pan out. I cannot imagine this being a good time for those women who have fertility problems and would be hoping to concieve, because both Saturn and Virgo are sterile, and Saturn was also very barren in Leo, but the effect will shift from wild beasts, to human females. This is particularly not good for those women hoping to concieve who have a Saturn ruled, or Virgo, on the fifth cusp, but this wouldn't be an ideal time for conception in general.

I do wonder if the birth rate dips during these periods? I suppose it ought to because it would make sense. I'll look into it.

Something I got thinking about regarding Saturn's passage into Virgo, is the whole 'size 0' model debate in the fashion industry. This has been a hot issue in the UK recently, and I think it has in the US as well, and perhaps other parts of the world. You see, Saturn is skeletal, and pertains to fasting, and Virgo being associated with women, particularly ideals of femininity, and because Virgo is associated with tailoring and the fashion industry, I cannot see this issue going away, and I think that the whole 'size 0' debate will intensify during this transit. The issue will really come into it's own at this time, and the controversy that we've had about it already is a prelude to this Saturnian transit through Virgo.

Another issue I've been reflecting upon regarding women's issues, is Muslim women, and the wearing of the veil, or the full body niqab, these women are symbols of Virgo if ever there was one! Now, there is a considerable Muslim population here in some parts of the UK, and many people in this country actually find the covering over of the face except for the eyes, intimidating, rude and offensive. Now, during Saturns transit in Leo, there was storming debate about this issue in the UK, and Saturn represents traditions, so with this debilitated Leo transit there has been many issues arising concerning peoples cultural identities and traditional values. I think the whole issue with veils and niqabs is very Saturnian, and very Virgoan, so this is also an issue that is not going to go away, and will come into it's own during Saturn's passage through Virgo, so I'll be keeping watch over this area.

I wonder about women's issues in conjunction with Islam, but also Catholicism.

Just at the end of this thread, the phrase 'Black Madonna' popped into my head, but I needed to find out what it was, and the Black Madonna is one of the most sacred icons in the Catholic church, so I wonder what will occur in this area of symbolism.

Black (Saturn) Madonna (Virgo)! you don't get much more Saturn in Virgo than that! With Saturn and Virgo both being so reserved, and with the associations with Islam and Catholicism, and considering these religions views on chastity and birth control, I can see these issues arising in storms, so women's issues in religion and in regard to sex, fertility, conception and birth control I can see being really in their element.

I have just thought, 'angel of death' - this is also a very Saturn in Virgo phrase that is in my head from my interest in true crime. 'Angel of death', is the term that tends to be used for a category of serial killer, where people in the medical profession, doctors or nurses, begin killing patients. Two examples are Dr. Harold Shipman, and paediatric nurse Beverly Allitt. I am not at all trying to imply that there will be a huge upsurge in serial killings in hospitals! :P

What I am saying is that 'angel of death' carries symbolism that is most Saturn in Virgo, and it might be interesting to bear in mind how such symbolism will come to bear out in the world.

Some images:

Size 0:



The Veil:



Angel of Death:



Black Madonna:



Your thoughts?

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Last edited by Draco; 04-24-2007 at 04:15 PM.
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Unread 04-24-2007, 04:36 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

The only thing I can really reply to, I think, is the size 0 debate. It's an interesting idea, especially when you consider Virgo's anatomical rulership of the stomach/intestines. Since Saturn is so much about restricition and Virgo rules these parts of the body, the first thing that comes to my mind is, indeed, an upsurge in the "fad diets" or starvation diets or something along those lines. Size 0 does not look healthy, by the way, which seems to almost contradict the health aspects associated with Virgo's Astrological Alphabet rulership of the sixth house.
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Unread 04-24-2007, 04:48 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Quote:
health aspects associated with Virgo's Astrological Alphabet rulership of the sixth house.
I take the traditional perspective of the sixth house being illness, disease, accidents, injuries, disorder, chaos and 'the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune'. Health is a first house concern.

Quote:
Virgo's anatomical rulership of the stomach/intestines.
Yes, actually I hadn't thought of that which is even more intriguing. So not only is Saturn skeletal and pertains to fasting, but with Virgo representing feminine ideals and fashion, and is also the digestive system as well, then I'm even more convinced that the whole 'size 0' issue is set to explode big-time after September in the next couple of years.
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Unread 04-25-2007, 04:41 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Quote:
I take the traditional perspective of the sixth house being illness, disease, accidents, injuries, disorder, chaos and 'the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune'. Health is a first house concern.
Ah, good point. It seems my associations are a little off.

Anyway, back to the main point. I was also wondering about our advances in science. Virgo is often described as the most scientifically minded of the Zodaic (in opposition to Pisces) so it makes one wonder what will happen within these next four years. Will Saturn be useful here? Will Saturn be indifferent here until he reaches his terms? Will Saturn be helpful to science then or will he pull science back to a crawl? So many questions.
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Unread 04-25-2007, 05:20 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Saturn in Virgo I think we might see conservative views come into favor and a crunch on just about everything.

With the political events and elections things will be ultra conservative.

I wonder how this shall play into the war.

As far as fashion.Less will be in. If you think weight is an issue now then wait till the next few years occur.

I hope we see a troop pullout ,but I doubt it shall be next year.
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Unread 04-25-2007, 06:08 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Something to keep in mind. There is an entire generation of us 40somethings that have Uranus and Pluto conjunct in Virgo. I thought I would throw that in for additional speculation.

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Unread 04-25-2007, 07:43 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo.

Hi.

Quote:
I was also wondering about our advances in science.
Yes me too. Saturn has rulership over cold, hard, rational science. Virgo is both the domicile and exaltation of Mercury, and Mercury has rulership over all things that end in '-ology'.

So both Saturn and Virgo are scientific, and Virgo is said to have an aptitude for history, and Saturn is history and antiquity - so I'm thinking about archeology. I do wonder what will be happening with that science when Mercury in Capricorn will make it's trines to Saturn, because then they will be in mutual reception, so will there be archeological discoveries, will archeology come into it's own in some way? We should keep our eyes peeled.

What sciences in particular do you think would be especially embodied in Saturn in Virgo?

Quote:
makes one wonder what will happen within these next four years.
Saturn will be in Virgo for just under two and a half years in all.

Saturn enters Virgo in early September this year, and will leave for a dip into Libra in late October 2009, before regressing back into Virgo in early April 2010, and then departs for Libra proper, toward the latter part of July 2010.

It will not return to Virgo again until mid October 2038. For many, this will be the last Saturn passage of Virgo they will experience, for the short-lived, it will be the only one.

For the record, the last Saturn in Virgo period began with a brief dip in mid-November 1977 to early January 1978. It entered for it's more lengthy period in late July 1978 to late September 1980.

To those of you who are older: what kind of things symbolic of Saturn in Virgo was going on at these times, in the Christmas period of '77/78, and in the last years of the seventies and the most part of 1980?

I could simply search the 'net, but it's more interesting to hear from those who lived in these periods, and can speak from personal experience of your observations upon the world. what do you recall? I'm thinking more about events in the world at large, in the universal sense, not personal, natal experiences.

Quote:
Will Saturn be useful here? Will Saturn be indifferent here until he reaches his terms? Will Saturn be helpful to science then or will he pull science back to a crawl?
Well, Saturn will certainly be better off here than it has been traversing through it's long exile through the signs of the luminaries, where he is most unhappy.

Saturn will be peregrine in Virgo for the most part, and a peregrine planet tends to be pulled toward malice of beneficience, depending on how he aspects and recieves other planets during his journey, but usually they tend to a bit of malice.

At least though when Saturn reaches his terms he will have a little dignity of his own, there will be a little light relief for all things Saturnian; teeth, bones, structures, orthodox religion, tradition, darkness, the elderly, barriers and borders, lead, etc. etc. ad infinitum. These things have suffered during Saturn's exile, but Saturns peregrination, and it's terms in Virgo will offer Saturn and his children a period of recuperation, in order to gather strength for his entry to Libra, where Saturn and all his, will be exalted.

Those of us with Capricorn and Aquarian ascendants will welcome this bit of relief especially. The houses that Saturn rules in our horoscopes will be able to start breathing a little easier.

It isn't all good however. Saturn is the great malefic, so the stronger Saturn is, the more power to the force of evil. The names 'Saturn' and 'Satan', are very closely etymologically related. Something to bear in mind.

Quote:
Saturn in Virgo I think we might see conservative views come into favor
Surely. With the most conservative planet, traversing a rather conservative sign this would make sense.

Although I doubt conservatism would be as powerful a force as when Saturn makes his long sojourn through his homelands of Capricorn and Aquarius. I suppose then Saturns recent and current transit through his exiles, is a most liberal, perhaps too liberal time, Saturn being so hampered, and I believe I have observed this permeating the world.

I think that there will conservatism, but also restraints and difficulties particulalrly for women and 'womens issues', because Virgo pertains to the females of humanity, Aquarius the males, Gemini the human collective.

This is why my original post was focused so much upon women, size 0, nutrition, women in orthodox religion, Jewish, Muslim and Catholic women especially, chastity, fertility problems and issues, virginity and spinsterism, career and business women, black women, angels of death, 'femme fatales', etc, etc.

Virgo does have much more breadth of symbolism than human females of course, but I was thinking along these lines and how women might be affected.

Quote:
I wonder how this shall play into the war.
Indeed. As I said, Virgo has much more breadth of symbolism than human females. Virgo has a great deal to do with the military, particularly if we see Virgo as militant goddess Athena, and the military tends to have a lot more to do with men. The discipline, order and strict regimes of the military are very Virgoan, so Virgo is the mother of all warriors, he with good Virgo emphasis an efficient soldier makes.

I was thinking that if Saturn is lord of death, and as he is the great malefic picking up a bit of strength in Virgo, I am not optimistic for the military and soldiers - and Saturn in Virgo is an appropriate symbolism for the making of widows, and grieving mothers, so I am not most optimistic for our respective compatriots in Iraq.

Quote:
As far as fashion. Less will be in.
Yes, I didn't think about what might come into fashion in particular, I was focusing upon womens nutrition issues and how this is reflected in the fashion industry, but yes, perhaps minimalism in the Summer seasons of Saturn's Virgo transit will be very on trend, and yet somehow minimalist, but not revealing, as that wouldn't be very Saturn in Virgo. The colour black is always fashionable, and looks good on everyone, but perhaps the Winter seasons of this transit will make black particularly trendy.

In fact I have never thought about it before, but perhaps the Summer/Winter fashion seasons of particular fashion houses and the fashion capitals of London, New York, Milan and Paris, can be reflected or predicted by observing the planet Venus and the sign of Virgo? Hmm.....

This might make an interesting new thread.

Does anyone else have thoughts to share upon Saturns upcoming transit through Virgo? What might be symbolically reflected in the world?

I added some images which I considered to be very Saturn in Virgo, and please feel free to add some of your own to illustrate your own thoughts about this transit and it's symbolic qualities if you wish.

I hope that this thread will continue to develop as we approach Saturn in Virgo, and throughout it's sojourn.
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Unread 04-25-2007, 11:00 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

When Saturn enters Virgo I get to "enjoy" the experience of Saturn transiting over my natal North Node, Mars, Jupiter and then my first Saturn Return in that order. Sheer joy.

Draco's talk about dieting is interesting as I am planning to lose a lot of weight soon (I need to for my health - the doctor says I am too fat). Maybe Saturn in Virgo will help with that.

I don't think Saturn in Virgo is that bad though. Virgo is a very dry earthy sign and Saturn is a very dry earthy planet. I would think that Saturn and Virgo would be comfortable with each other. In transits through earth signs do the more positive aspects of Saturn tend to manifest more? What happened the last time Saturn went through Virgo?

To add to the speculation, Saturn is about hard work and Virgo likes hard work too, so I think Saturn in Virgo will be a time for knuckling down and getting things done, tying up loose ends so to speak.

Last edited by Yoi; 04-25-2007 at 11:07 PM.
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Unread 04-25-2007, 11:58 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoi
When Saturn enters Virgo I get to "enjoy" the experience of Saturn transiting over my natal North Node, Mars, Jupiter and then my first Saturn Return in that order. Sheer joy.
Wow! Saturn return is illuminating!

I noticed in October this year Saturn will conjunct South Node, around 15th with Venus there too. 5/6 degrees Virgo. I'm wondering what this will bring out in society...

Arrgh, it'll be transitting opposite my natal moon, transitting North node conjuncting natal moon - oh my goodness!! I'm hiding.

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Unread 04-26-2007, 12:12 AM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune Rising
Wow! Saturn return is illuminating!
Indeed, as I am now enjoying my newly acquired maturity.

Saturn will make quite a few difficult transits for me in Virgo. It will cross my ascendant, but I will get the dreaded solar opposition, then a square to Jupiter, and finally a trio of oppositions at the end.
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Unread 04-26-2007, 01:11 AM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Quote:
What sciences in particular do you think would be especially embodied in Saturn in Virgo?
Well, I've certainly never heard of Virgo's assocation with histories, but I think of immunology, personally. The hypocondriacal Virgin comes to my mind here, and with Saturn crusing though her, causing all sorts of "greater malefic" mishaps, it doesn't seem so good. Also, something you touched on before, embryology (which I don't think I spelled correctly) will also be effected. Saturn is no Jupiter, and Virgo is no Cancer, so it makes me wonder as to the health and care of fetuses and newborn children.

Quote:
Saturn will be in Virgo for just under two and a half years in all.
Indeed! Thank you for double-checking my math. Heh, for some reason, I thought that since Saturn takes a little over twice as long as Jupiter to go around the Zodiac and I somehow came to the conclusion that Jupiter takes two years to go through a Sign (which is wrong), so two times two is four. I grabbed Saturn's orbit and stretched it!

Quote:
...and it's terms in Virgo will offer Saturn and his children a period of recuperation, in order to gather strength for his entry to Libra, where Saturn and all his, will be exalted.
At least for a little bit. Then when he slips into 25° Virgo he falls back into his peregrin state. Do you think this will be like a rise, fall, and ressurection of all the things that Saturn helps in his little Terminal push?

Quote:
I was thinking that if Saturn is lord of death, and as he is the great malefic picking up a bit of strength in Virgo, I am not optimistic for the military and soldiers - and Saturn in Virgo is an appropriate symbolism for the making of widows, and grieving mothers, so I am not most optimistic for our respective compatriots in Iraq
It is interesting to note that Saturn had just entered his first degree of Term inside the Twins when the first move of the Iraq war was made. This becomes even more interesting considering the comment you made about Gemini being humanity collected.


Something I thought about just now: the bees. Virgo is an agricultural sign, denoting wheat and grain and all of the, dare I say it, basic crops of civilization. The Lord of Death coursing through this sign representing these essential crops after the recent mass CCD incidents cannot bode well.
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Unread 04-26-2007, 08:29 AM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Physics, Cellular Biology, Geology, Mechanical Engineering, Dentistry, and certain facets of Computer Science (in particular Databasing, Data Mining, Information Retrieval/Archiving) come to mind as Saturn-in-Virgo sciences. In a way, Saturn in Virgo IS science!

I think Saturn through Virgo should be a good thing, the energies are so compatible and in many ways very similar. I'm personally looking forward to it!
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Unread 04-26-2007, 08:51 AM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Hi Kaiousei.

Typically of me, another long post.

Firstly, thankyou for putting this thread back on track, as it had started to become derailed by people mentioning upcoming Saturn transits to their natal Virgo planets, and that's it, just mentioning it and nothing else, without any insightful commentary about what they feel that Saturn in Virgo itself symbolises to them, and more importantly, what they feel that this upcoming transit will symbolise in the universal sense.

If anyone bothered reading it, I did actually say in my second post on the first page:

Quote:
I'm thinking more about events in the world at large, in the universal sense, not personal, natal experiences.
There is in fact a thread discussing Saturn in Virgo in the natal section. Might I politely suggest that you take your natal/transit announcements there?:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ead.php?t=4713

I was hoping here for an in depth discussion upon the symbolic qualities of Saturn in Virgo and how it's effect may be wrought upon the world, with a mind to this upcoming period, although references to other Saturn in Virgo periods are welcome.

Neptune Rising and Pisces Princes' comments do nothing for the furtherance of this discussion. I could bang on about how Saturn will transit my Venus and Sun in Virgo, but I'm not here to talk about me, or you, I'm here to talk about Saturn in Virgo, it's symbolic qualities, the world at large, and the effects it might have.

Yoi did in fact make an interesting comment when she said:

Quote:
Virgo is a very dry earthy sign and Saturn is a very dry earthy planet. I would think that Saturn and Virgo would be comfortable with each other. In transits through earth signs do the more positive aspects of Saturn tend to manifest more?
Saturn is a cold and dry planet, and Virgo is a cold and dry sign (and the domicile of cold and dry Mercury), and as such, both planet and sign are of a melancholic temperament.

So yes, Saturn is comfortable in the sense that he isn't moistened or heated in Virgo, and so has an adequate, congenial expression for his melancholic nature.

Melancholy is retentive, it holds back and stands firm, and we can see how Saturn in Virgo is a time for frugality and modesty, which we can see ties in well with what we have been discussing already.

The Greeks considered aversion to food a sympton of melancholia (excess of black bile), which is significant again in light of what we have been discussing.

I looked up 'melancholia' on Wikipedia, and synchronistically, I discovered another very appropriate Saturn in Virgo image, without even intending to find it:



Now how Saturn in Virgo is that!

Quote:
I think of immunology, personally.
Well, interestingly, the spleen is ruled by Virgo, and the spleen works for the immune system. The spleen was also considered to be the source of black bile, the substance which an excess of was attributed to the melancholy temperament. So there could be something in what you said there.

Culpepper associated 'hardening of the spleen' as a Virgoan ailment, and 'hardening' is particularly appropriate to Saturn. However, I do not know enough about anatomy/medicine, to discern what the 'spleen of the world' might symbolise, and so how Saturn's passage through the sign might effect us all in this symbolic respect, but I will look into this.

Please comment with your ideas folks.

Quote:
Also, something you touched on before, embryology (which I don't think I spelled correctly) will also be effected.
Yes, you spelled it correctly.

I'm not sure about embryology though, because the thing about Saturn and Virgo is that they are both barren, both melancholic and retentive, so they deny access to the womb.

I'm thinking that there may be problems with conception in the first place, or issues relating to infertility, or voluntary, or obligatory non-reproduction.

Quote:
Do you think this will be like a rise, fall, and ressurection of all the things that Saturn helps in his little Terminal push?
Well, it might make sense to notice something happen when Saturn moves to Virgo peregrine, and then onto Virgo term. Saturn will be in a bit of a dicey position when peregrine, tending to malice, but trying to keep it together. When he enters his term, he experiences a bit of relief. So Saturn's passage through Virgo is like a recuperation of his strength before he leaves for Libra, his exaltation, moves back, then onto Libra again proper.

Saturn and saturnine things will experience a little bit of relief, a period of restoration, but nothing grand or major, until Libra.

Quote:
It is interesting to note that Saturn had just entered his first degree of Term inside the Twins when the first move of the Iraq war was made. This becomes even more interesting considering the comment you made about Gemini being humanity collected.
Well, let's watch out for when Saturn moves to it's first degree of term when he moves again into a human sign, and see if anything happens in Iraq.

Where will human females come into play though?

Something I wasn't realising when I was making my comments about the military in a previous post, is that Iraq, and in particular the city of Baghdad, both come under the rulership of Virgo!

So with Saturn entering his term in this sign, having a little bit of a reprieve, we may begin to see some more structure, order and organisation in authority for the people of Iraq, and perhaps, a little more structure and authority where Iraqi women are concerned, more positions of power, something they won't have had for a long time - and remember the association with Muslim women I mentioned earlier on.

Leo is tyrants and despots, and during Saturn's transit here, we saw the execution of Saddam. With Saturn entering Virgo, ruling both Iraq and it's capital, we might assume that this transit will be felt keenly there.

Thinking along these lines, with Saturn being government and high office, I got wondering about women in positions of power, and this reminded me of a thread that is floating around somewhere regarding Hilary Clinton, and whether she could become the US president.

If she runs for office, this will occur in 2008, with Saturn in Virgo.

Well, Margaret Thatcher, became Prime Minister of Great Britain on the 4th May 1979, right within the Saturn in Virgo period.

I tried to find out about the Indian female leader, but I can't for the life of me remember her name.

I am in no way trying to imply that Hilary is going to become president on account of a single planet transitting a sign, not at all, we would need to look into Hilary's chart, the mundane charts of the US, the US goverment, etc. etc., and this is well beyond my capacity or inclination as yet. Although even a woman running for president is quite Saturn in Virgo.

I'm just saying that it may be interesting to watch out for women in positions of office at this time.

Quote:
Virgo is an agricultural sign, denoting wheat and grain and all of the, dare I say it, basic crops of civilization.
I'm not sure about bees, because I don't find them very Saturnian, apparently, they are Jupiter.

However, you are absolutely right that Virgo is agriculture and crops, and Saturn was also the god of agriculture and the harvest, which is where his sickle comes from.

Saturn is tradition and old ways, Virgo is nutrition, and as Yoi pointed out, both Saturn and Virgo are 'earthy'. This is making me think along the lines of organic farming and home grown produce, and natural, rustic farming methods.

I wasn't around during the last Saturn passage through Virgo, but I am aware that in the late seventies there was a trend for self-sufficiency. People began growing there own vegetables and tending allotments, getting into health foods and starting up small-holdings.

Lets keep our eyes open and see what is going to be going on in these areas.
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Unread 04-26-2007, 09:03 AM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Hi Unukalhai.

I missed your post as I was typing.

Quote:
Saturn in Virgo IS science!
I suppose in many respects it is, but cold, hard, rational science.

Quote:
I think Saturn through Virgo should be a good thing, the energies are so compatible and in many ways very similar. I'm personally looking forward to it!
Me too. I'm sure it will be a relief for many of us when Saturn escapes his detriment.
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Unread 04-26-2007, 09:12 AM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

(Now in the correct mind-set)
I am now wondering if there would be a surge in the popularity of hand-crafted gifts especially from natural materials as anything hand-crafted also goes well with this earthy position.
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Unread 04-26-2007, 04:42 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Quote:
Culpepper associated 'hardening of the spleen' as a Virgoan ailment, and 'hardening' is particularly appropriate to Saturn. However, I do not know enough about anatomy/medicine, to discern what the 'spleen of the world' might symbolise, and so how Saturn's passage through the sign might effect us all in this symbolic respect, but I will look into this.
I also have no idea as to what the spleen of the world could symbolize, but thinking about the human body in comparison to the world, the immune system becomes quite similar to law enforcement.

Quote:
I'm not sure about embryology though, because the thing about Saturn and Virgo is that they are both barren, both melancholic and retentive, so they deny access to the womb.
This is true, however, I don't think this particular placement is going to hold back all pregnancies (talk about a crisis). So, it must mean it's going to have a mark elsewhere, which is where my concerns about prenatal care come into play. Perhaps an increased rate of difficult pregnancies and premature (skeletal, unhealthy) births.

Quote:
Well, it might make sense to notice something happen when Saturn moves to Virgo peregrine, and then onto Virgo term. Saturn will be in a bit of a dicey position when peregrine, tending to malice, but trying to keep it together. When he enters his term, he experiences a bit of relief. So Saturn's passage through Virgo is like a recuperation of his strength before he leaves for Libra, his exaltation, moves back, then onto Libra again proper.
Saturn's terms are only 19° to 24° which means there are still five degrees left before he enters the 0° of Libra, so it would make sense, to me for there to be some kind of...delay - perhaps - of all that is strengthened by the Term until the Exhaltion is reached.

Quote:
Something I wasn't realising when I was making my comments about the military in a previous post, is that Iraq, and in particular the city of Baghdad, both come under the rulership of Virgo!
Wow, I completely read over this when I was reading the Virgo section of CA.

Quote:
I am in no way trying to imply that Hilary is going to become president on account of a single planet transitting a sign...
Uh-huh. :P It certainly can't be hurting her and her ultimate goal, though.

Quote:
I'm not sure about bees, because I don't find them very Saturnian, apparently, they are Jupiter.
I wasn't trying to imply that Saturn was the significator for the bees, just that Saturn's restricting and death-ish nature through an agricultural sign just after this recent mass CCD seems ominous. You bring up an interesting point about Saturn being an agricultural god, this is true and I did indeed completely forget about it. However, if you wanted to look at the bees in a symbolic nature, they are the "backbone" and "skeleton" for our foods, being the cheif pollenators of many fruit and vegetable plants, however, I don't believe these play into the Virgo archetype of plants. I find your comment on organic foods very very interesting and I will indeed keep an eye on this particular part, it would be amazing to see the organic sections of supermarkets explode in size during these next TWO AND A HALF (I have to remind myself) years.

Quote:
I am now wondering if there would be a surge in the popularity of hand-crafted gifts especially from natural materials as anything hand-crafted also goes well with this earthy position
Interesting thought, but none of Saturn's metals are what I, personally, would want to purchase. The only stone I would be interested in is the sapphire, so it would be interesting to see popularity in this particular gem rise. Metals like lead are not going to sell so well. Saturn does not shimmer and sparkle, so neither do his metals.


I also wonder as to the literature that will be popular in this time, seeing as how Virgo is often the significator of books and libraries and the like. It would be interesting to see an increase in the rate of wome releasing popular books.
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Unread 04-26-2007, 05:19 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

I'm one of the older ones here(will be 60 in June!). Anyhow, when tr. Saturn was last in Virgo, that was in the aftermath of my mother's death from breast cancer. I had little money, and sought a cheaper apartment in Brooklyn(I was living in Manhattan at the time, after splitting up with my long-term boyfriend the year before. I was physically very active at the time(still am, due to fitness habits that I put into place at that time), and got to be VERY thin, esp. when Saturn opposed my Ascendant(5 Pisces)and stayed quite thing for many years afterwards. Am still considered slim, but I have a feeling that when Saturn enters Virgo, I will be seeing further results of my current fitness and diet program. Am heading towards more of a high-raw vegetarian diet.
Interesting that the idea of handicrafts should be brought up - I am considering reinstating my knitting after a long time without it.
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Unread 04-26-2007, 08:28 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
I suppose in many respects it is, but cold, hard, rational science.
True, but such is the nature of science, the focus is on analysis (Virgo) of observable conditions and rigid circumstances (Saturn) - The nature of science fails when there are not clearly observable and rigid patterns, hence the failure of science to explain the basis of life, astrology, our highly dynamic universe, the underlying principles of human consciousness, and many other challenging puzzles which defy the Saturnian laws but instead work upon Jupiter's principles of expansion and abstract associations.

That picture you found on Wikipedia is also on the cover of Erin Sullivan's book "Saturn In Transit", which I must say is a great piece and certainly that is a neat picture!

One thing I am really looking forward to during Saturn transiting Virgo is a restructuring and reality check of healthcare systems. I am deeply hoping Saturn will help put our systems of healthcare back on a more proper path, as it seems that both the USA-centric system of HMO/PPO based insurance care is failing as miserably as the European/Canadian systems of socialized medicine. Both are incredibly poor designs and result in many people receiving substandard medical care, if they are even able to obtain it at all. I truly hope it is high on Saturn's priority list to bring logic and reason to the heathcare industry, because it's a very sad picture as it stands. Our modern society has done so many amazing things, yet it seems our healthcare systems have outright trampled upon the Hippocratic Oath and that most medical institutions/businesses are using patients as cash cows rather than making a real effort to heal their fellow humans. I also think we will see a surge in traditional medicine, such as holistic healing methods, acupressure/acupuncture, homeopathy, etc... Maybe even new discoveries in these areas!

Also, Virgo represents the service worker, he/she who toils to provide a service regardless of industry. With Saturn, which represents the process of attaining status amongst men, transiting this sign, I also hope that the service workers of the world will start to again be recognized for what they do. It seems society and especially employeers have forgotten the people who really do the true labor, those who "work in the trenches" all day long putting all the nitty gritty ends into place. These days, it seems as if only management and the lazy "white collar" who do little more than push paper (or a keyboard) all day are respected. Hopefully, with Saturn in the sign of the REAL worker, they will get more of the respect they deserve. The trend with Saturn in Leo has been to reward those who show off or puff themselves up, while neglecting the humble servant.

A few technical details about the Saturn-Virgo ingress... The ruler of the sign opposing Saturn's sign (Moon/Cancer) and Jupiter, Saturn's natural opposite, form a tight midpoint relationship with Saturn during the ingress. The Moon/Jupiter midpoint is in tight opposition to Saturn from 0Pisces13 at the exact Virgo ingress (September 2nd, 13:48:52 GMT). This seems quite positive for the ingress, offering a natural state of balance to Saturn's darker nature. Aside from a loose (and out of sign) trine to Pluto, Saturn otherwise forms no major aspects to any of the planets, Chiron, or the nodes. The chart is appropriately mutable & earth heavy, with the Sun and Virgo's ruler Mercury joining Saturn in Virgo for the ingress. No objects, including the asteroids and Uranians displayable in Astrolog32, are present in Capricorn.

Another aspect of the military concept is that Virgo actually does have an association with the military directly. Although it is primarily an organization of Aries/Mars, it's called "military service" for a reason; all forms of service oriented occupations fall under Virgo. One engages in a military career to serve one's country, and in a military career service comes before killing; most soldiers aren't in it to kill, they desire to serve their nation, even to the point of giving up their health and well being for such. One should also note that logistics is very much a Virgo thing, and is said that a military is above all a logistical operation. According to current events, it seems the Saturn-Virgo ingress will closely line up with the beginning of a supposed drawdown of US forces in Iraq. As Saturn is also about long periods of time and drawn out situations, it also seems possible the withdrawl timeline will drag on, but we'll just have to see what happens. No doubt it will be interesting.
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Unread 04-27-2007, 04:21 AM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

May be a sloppy post as I've had a few beers.

Quote:
I also have no idea as to what the spleen of the world could symbolize, but thinking about the human body in comparison to the world, the immune system becomes quite similar to law enforcement.
This is a good idea. Saturn also has a lot to do with 'the law'. I wish someone who works in the medical field would come along and give us their ideas on the spleen, I've looked it up, but the technical jargon goes over my head.

In CA Lilly says on Saturn:

Quote:
...in man's body he principally rules the spleen.


So the spleen it seems, is especially Saturn in Virgo. So we really ought to be thinking about the symbolism of the spleen. I suppose the spleen is one of those parts of the anatomy that unless you have medical knowledge, few know much about it, so comments from any medics out there are most welcome.

Quote:
I don't think this particular placement is going to hold back all pregnancies
No, of course not, but I do feel that issues of this nature might begin to become prevalent in the news.

Quote:
Wow, I completely read over this when I was reading the Virgo section of CA.
Lilly doesn't mention Iraq or Baghdad in CA directly. He mentions 'Mesopotamia', which refers to the region now occupied by modern Iraq, Eastern Syria, Southeastern Turkey and Southwest Iran.

Why Baghdad in particular in Iraq I don't know, but I got this from Deb Houlding's Skyscript.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/virgo.html

For the record, here are the places that Lilly associates with Saturn and with Virgo.

Saturn:

Quote:
He delights in deserts, woods, obscure valleys, caves, dens, holes, mountains, or where men have been buried, churchyards etc. ruined buildings, coal-mines, sinks, dirty or stinking muddy places, wells and houses of offices etc.


Virgo:

Quote:
Greece, the South part thereof, Croatia, the Athenian territory, Mesopotamia, Africa, the Southwest of France, Jerusalem, Rhodes, Lyons, Toulouse, Basil, Heidelburg, Brundusiam (Brindisi in Italy).


So perhaps we should look for things occuring in Saturn places, in the Virgo places? The deserts of Africa for example, or the Temple of the Mount(mountains) in Jerusalem.

Personally, I take Lilly's associations with pinch of salt.

Jerusalem might be an intersting place to watch though, because of Saturn's associations with Judaism and Orthodox Christianity.

Quote:
they are the "backbone" and "skeleton" for our foods
This got me thinking about what the 'back-bone' of our food supply is, and then I thought about farmers, because if it wasn't for them, we consumerists wouldn't have any food, and farmers come under the rulership of Saturn, so farming issues are on the agenda. This also ties in with the organic foods idea, allotments and self-sufficiency.

I get what you mean about the bees though, perhaps Saturn in Virgo will bring damage to nature - but there's nothing new.

Quote:
The only stone I would be interested in is the sapphire
Yes, let's keep our eyes on sapphires, because they come under the rulership of Saturn according to Lilly, and in every gift-shop I've ever been in, the sapphire is always considered the birth-stone of Virgo, associated with the month of September.

How about the toxicity of lead affecting female fertility? I't not making sweeping predictions here by the way, just wanting to thouroughly explore the symbolism of Saturn in Virgo, and the nature of things we may see.

I'm bearing in mind that of course, all the other planets will be doing things in other signs throughout Saturn's transit in Virgo, but it can't hurt to take a planet in a sign and have a good rummage through it's symbolism in isolation.

Hi Unuk.

Quote:
science fails when there are not clearly observable and rigid patterns
Yes, when I said about cold, hard science, I meant that there are sciences that are not like this because they are not 'exact' sciences, such as psychology, graphology and perhaps, astrology for example.

So I was thinking that the sciences that might come most prevalent in this time are the coldest, hardest ones such as physics and mathematics.

Quote:
That picture you found on Wikipedia is also on the cover of Erin Sullivan's book "Saturn In Transit",
My finding of that picture was synchronistic, so I sense you recognised this for a reason, as I wasn't aware of this book. I wondered if there is anything in that book about Saturn in Virgo that you could quote, to let the synchronicities roll.....?

Quote:
a restructuring and reality check of healthcare systems.
Yes, I'd thought about this too, as surely Virgo should have much to do with health and care. Virgo has much to do with doctors and nurses. I wonder how this will tie in with the fertility and nutrition issues?

Quote:
I truly hope it is high on Saturn's priority list to bring logic and reason to the heathcare industry, because it's a very sad picture as it stands.
Indeed, I couldn't agree more.

Quote:
I also think we will see a surge in traditional medicine, such as holistic healing methods, acupressure/acupuncture, homeopathy, etc... Maybe even new discoveries in these areas!
Yes. I hadn't thought of this, but it does tie in well to the whole organic farming idea, the theme of getting 'back to basics' where health and nutrition are concerned, so we should look out for these things.

Quote:
Also, Virgo represents the service worker, he/she who toils to provide a service regardless of industry.
True. I hadn't got round to thinking about Saturn in Virgo and the working classes, but surely there is a theme of symbolism here.

A personal thought about Saturn and economic class: I find that Saturn concerns those at the very top of society, and those at the bottom, but has very little to do with the middle classes. I feel that Saturn relates to the aristocracy, because it is the uppermost sphere of the visible planets, and relates to 'high office', but at the same time Saturn also rules those who toil and 'get their hands dirty'. So Saturn is all but the middle classes.

Of those at the top and those at the bottom of the economic ladder, then Saturn in Virgo is surely the workers.

Quote:
Hopefully, with Saturn in the sign of the REAL worker, they will get more of the respect they deserve.
Hopefully, but I'm not sure I'm so optimistic. In an earlier post I mentioned Hilary Clinton, and how Margeret Thatcher rose to power during Saturns last Virgo transit.

Margaret Thatcher closed down the coal-mines in the UK, meaning that thousands of working people lost their livelihoods, and this completely devastated so many peoples lives. These colliers found that they could not apply themselves to other jobs, because mining was all they knew and had no experience in anything else, so they were jobless and their families had no income, and that was that, and for those that lived in mining towns, these jobs were passed down through generations, leaving the successsive generations with no jobs either.

Thatcher's government was apparently particularly anti-working class from what I am aware of, but I cannot speak from experience as I was only born in '82, although I remember Thatcher being Prime Minister, and finding her rather intimidating when she appeared on television, and adults talking about her as if she was the devil incarnate.

So for the UK at least, the last Saturn in Virgo transit spelt disaster for a great many working people, and coal-mining is incredibly Saturnian, and those more Saturnian workers were affected more disastrously than anyone.

So issues for the working class definately came into their own in the UK during the last transit.

Quote:
The Moon/Jupiter midpoint is in tight opposition to Saturn from 0Pisces13 at the exact Virgo ingress
This is interesting information. I suppose it would flavour the entire transit.

With the observations that you noted, then perhaps Saturn's transit will not be so hard on the workers this time, but time will tell.

One thing I look forward to as this thread develops, is as Saturn transits Virgo, being able to read back and apply what we have been musing over to things that will be going on in the world.

Quote:
Saturn-Virgo ingress will closely line up with the beginning of a supposed drawdown of US forces in Iraq.
Let us hope so. It will be interesting to watch Iraq, particularly with it being a Virgoan nation.
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Unread 04-27-2007, 04:47 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Well, I did some Wiki-ing about the spleen and this is what I got.

Quote:
The spleen is an organ of the abdomen, where it functions in the destruction of old red blood cells and holding a reservoir of blood. It is regarded as one of the centers of activity of the reticuloendothelial system (part of the immune system). Until recently, the purpose of the spleen was not known. It is increasingly recognized that its absence leads to a predisposition to certain infections.
Just reading over this part makes it sound like a very Saturnian organ and it ties in with Virgo due to the association with the immune system. The article doesn't talk about the hardening of the spleen as a medical condition, but it does speak of enlargment, which may be what they meant...though this seems more Jovian than anything.

Anyway, apparently the spleen is made of two types of tissue which are endearingly named "red pulp" and "white pulp". The red pulp is made out of sinuses - which are filled with blood -, splenic cords which are composed of reticular fibers, and a marginal zone which simply borders the "white pulp". The splenic cords and sinuses perform a mechanical filtration which removes unwanted materials from the blood, including decaying red blood cells.

The white pulp is composed of nodules called 'Malpighian corpuscles' that are made of lymphoid follicies which are rich in B-Cells (which are cells that are created when we get a virus or bacteria in our system, they make a specific antibody, and if we get that bacteria or virus again, the B-Cells populate and create billions of these antibodies, making us immune to the virus or bacteria). Another part of the white pulp, called the periarteriolar lymphoid sheath, creates our T-Cells, which perform a myriad of different functions including destroying infected cells, assisting other types of immune system cells, and memorizing particular nasties in a way similar to the B-Cells.

So...uh...got any ideas as to what the spleen of the world may be now? I'm thinking law enforcement or military, since we have already seemed to agree with the Virgo/Saturn militaristic ideas. The immune system does seem to be the military of the body, and the spleen creates these "soldiers", so do you think this may relate to military officals and offices like the Pentagon? Or perhaps people such as our beloved president who is the Commander in Chief during these times?
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Unread 04-27-2007, 05:17 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

When playing with the idea of Saturn in Virgo, I think of the chemical cocktail in the food produced for supermarkets, and the deterimental effect that it has potentially had on the mental health of western populations. This has been more directly shown in relation to children who can often sho0w significant behavioural changes due to dietary changes.

The other issue still connected with health issues are the attempts to classify vitamin and mineral supplements as "drugs", so effectively claiming the supplement market for the big pharmaceuticals. Next water may be classified as it has such a huge impact on every single chemical reaction in the body.

The Virgo Pluto/Uranus conjunction is a player in the chart of a the 40 yr old generationX. I think it is interesting to consider the impact of Saturn on this generation as a whole or on events and cycles that started in the 60's.

I always think of my many planets in the 6th house as impacting on how my body is quite sensitive and reactive to many many foods and circumstance.

The Black Madonna is sometimes refered to as Tindara, it just popped into my head so I thought I would add it.

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Last edited by flea; 04-27-2007 at 05:21 PM.
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Unread 04-27-2007, 07:48 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Quote:
One thing I look forward to as this thread develops, is as Saturn transits Virgo, being able to read back and apply what we have been musing over to things that will be going on in the world.
Perhaps we should create similar threads for when all of the slower planets move into a new sign.

Quote:
When playing with the idea of Saturn in Virgo, I think of the chemical cocktail in the food produced for supermarkets, and the deterimental effect that it has potentially had on the mental health of western populations
I would think mental health would be high on the list for Virgo concerns, seeing as how hypochondria is a psychological disorder and Virgo's traditional ruler has much to do with the mind and learning.

Quote:
The idea that this could be impeding child intelligence and promoting hyperactivity seemed like science fiction.
This is a quote from the SkyScript article on lead and I immediately connected it to the quote above from flea, so perhaps this issue needs more figuring.

Quote:
Anyone committing a crime of violence is likely to have something like four times more lead and aluminium in their hair then a normal person – that’s a staggeringly large differential
This is from the same article, but it's quoted out of another. I found this interesting as it had to do with a psychological condition (Mercury and thus Virgo) and lead (Saturn). Some of my classmates had their senior thesis returned to them and there was one in particular that I thought to be interesting, it was about women who murdered their children and the psychological effects surrounding it, unfortunately, I was unable to read it as deeply as I would have liked, I was forced to skim it. However, it was strange in a synchronistic fashion that this discussion was on my mind and the idea of women (Virgo) murderesses (Saturn) just appeared to me on this paper. I think the mothers murdering their children is especially Saturn in Virgo, considering both the planet and Sign are barren. Perhaps a bit of a stretch for a connection...but it worked for me!
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Unread 04-29-2007, 02:02 PM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Hi there,

I came into AW to post on something else in the Mundane section but saw this interesting thread.

Can't really see how anyone can separate health from disease by putting one in the 1st and the other in the 6th, that's splitting hairs isn't it? 6th is Public health, 1st is personal health but we are the public..... anyway, Saturn was in Virgo in 1979 when....
Surgeon General Julius Richmond issued a landmark report entitled Healthy People: The Surgeon General's Report on Health Promotion and Disease Prevention. It represented an emerging consensus in the health community that the nation's health policy had to be dramatically recast to emphasize the prevention of disease. The report established for the first time ambitious, quantifiable objectives for improving the nation's health, to be achieved by 1990....

It seems a foregone conclusion that there will be another big shake up in healthcare services and a push to educate people, once more, about 'You are what you eat' The possibility of this being connected to the spread of a virus or disease looms large when you look at the other planetary placings but we already have a crisis with MRSA etc in our hospitals.

When I see Saturn and Virgo together in the same sentence though, I agree with you all, I 'hear' lack of food and malnutrition as well as stricter regulations over services i.e more laws on hygiene. I reckon the introduction over the last 10/20 years of ready meals and more fast food and imported, refrigerated foodstuffs mean that the vitamin content is depleted. Our kids even in an affluent society are slowly becoming malnourished.

Sadly I also see unemployment.Worst case scenario we are heading towards another major war which, perhaps through lack of oil etc will cause food shortages, Food stamps? Virgo rules Mortality tables according to Munkasey and National service. Does this mean less deaths or sadness at rising mortality? In 1979 the Shah of Iran was overthrown. Iran is heavily aligned to Virgo/Pisces with the Islamic republic being formed on April 1st 1979 03.00pm Tehran. The Mars/Uranus conjunction today is opposite the 17 Virgo NN of that chart - watch what news comes out of there now.

As someone pointed out this is a big time for those born in 1966 with many having an exact Uranus/Pluto conjunction at 17 or 18 Virgo. The link continues for many born in the mid '60's and makes their life path closely connected with the fate of the Islamic Republic.

Saturn doesn't necessarily bring decrease or lack but it does bring regulations. For example, Saturn in Leo has not seen a lack of gambling but an increase causing regulations to be put in place to contain it.

In the UK we are about to have Home Information Packs these saturnine like documents will slow down agreements in the sales of houses (6th =3rd from the 4th). Slower economy, lower house prices too.
The 6th (Virgo) rules working conditions. Shorter working days are better for your health so maybe tighter laws on the working day?

Virgo is obviously also the dissemination of routine information so more laws on our health info records, IVF etc and I do think a big health issue is going to be around the use of communication equipment i,e mobiles, wireless laptops etc. the fertility link could be that wi-fi affects unborn babies or makes men sterile and unable to impregnate the woman.

It's a good idea to gather everyone's thoughts on Saturn in Virgo.
Thanks

Kx
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Unread 05-13-2007, 04:37 AM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

"I always think of my many planets in the 6th house as impacting on how my body is quite sensitive and reactive to many many foods and circumstance." - Flea

Me too - with Saturn, Pluto, and Moon stellium in my 6th house Leo. Virgo occupies the last 5 degrees of my 6th house before going into the 7th, so Saturn in Virgo could mean more attention to health issues for those few degrees before shifting emphasis to 7th-house matters. The last time tr. Saturn was in Virgo for me was after my mother died in 1978 - had a hard time with work(as in finding and keeping it as a freelance fabric designer), and I got VERY thin too at the time(was taking ballet class, and going to my health club, and not eating very much).
This time around, hopefully I will be able to get even more refined about my health, and get rid of the 5 lbs. that have stuck with me, no matter what. This past winter, I've had more colds than I've had for years, despite eating well, exercising and getting enough sleep. But it's possible that my body is somewhat rundown from the stress of the last few years of constantly moving, etc. I'm hoping that our current home will be stable for awhile, at least! I'm only now just getting back into some painting too, after all the previous domestic disruption.
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Unread 05-13-2007, 08:17 AM
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Re: Saturn into Virgo: September 2007.

Me too Cara, I have been getting back into painting last few years. i have also found it very good for processing emtions and other stuuf, I am sure it has effected my health for the better. Uranus/Pluto in Virgo on 5th house cusp, may account for some of that action.

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