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Predictive Astrology This is the place to discuss the astrology of the past, present, and future. Includes eclipses, transits, progressions, planetary returns.


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  #1  
Unread 02-01-2009, 04:01 AM
windwaker24 windwaker24 is offline
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Predicting Death

Hi All,

I have a question. Scorpio is in my 8th house and both Mars, Saturn and Pluto are in my 8th house, which from what I understand are the natural rulers of the 8th house and Scorpio. Does this mean I have a short life and violent death?
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  #2  
Unread 02-01-2009, 08:42 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Is this a natal?

As a strong Scorpio, naturally I'm interested in questions like these.

You're probably not getting many replies, by how you mentioned your interest.

The divination of death tends to be a taboo-area for the psychological hazards it is capable of, as interested as I am to respond I would not like the feeling that my interpretations would potentionally harm anyone's emotional/psychological well-being!

What is interesting is that you have your ascendant ruler, eighth ruler and Neptune all smack together which definately suggests fantasy and/or fascination with your own death.

Ray.
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Unread 02-01-2009, 07:20 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Modern astrologers have ethical misgivings about this question, but for classical astrology this is the first and most important. However, really, this question should be asked of a professional, for here on the internet you may just get what you pay for. Also it would be nice to have some back ground from you: that is are you caring for children or preparing to go into combat. This would tell me how dangerous your life really is.

But using your chart as an example, I will procede. First I see from the position of the outer planets that you are an adult. Children often post here thinking astrology is just a game.

Using classical houses, the benefic planet Venus rules your 8th house, Libra, and there are no planets in residence. Venus has essential dignity by term, and it is at the top of the chart. This usually indicates a natural death. You have Pisces rising and Jupiter rules your first house. Jupiter also has essential dignity, and this planetary position indicates a long life and good health. This is all based on the strength of the planets.

In classical astrology the first house represents youth, the 10th house the prime of life, the 7th house old age and the 4th, death and its aftermath. The 7th and 4th are ruled by Mercury which also has essential dignity. Thus the chart really indicates a pleasant life and a peaceful death. There are time consuming calculations that could show more details that could indicate some unpleasant times ahead, but I will leave it with this.

Also for those interested in predictive astrology, I am using Egyptian terms.
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Unread 02-01-2009, 07:33 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper
But using your chart as an example, I will procede. First I see from the position of the outer planets that you are an adult. Children often post here thinking astrology is just a game.

Using classical houses, the benefic planet Venus rules your 8th house, Libra, and there are no planets in residence. Venus has essential dignity by term, and it is at the top of the chart. This usually indicates a natural death. You have Pisces rising and Jupiter rules your first house. Jupiter also has essential dignity, and this planetary position indicates a long life and good health. This is all based on the strength of the planets.

In classical astrology the first house represents youth, the 10th house the prime of life, the 7th house old age and the 4th, death and its aftermath. The 7th and 4th are ruled by Mercury which also has essential dignity. Thus the chart really indicates a pleasant life and a peaceful death. There are time consuming calculations that could show more details that could indicate some unpleasant times ahead, but I will leave it with this.

Also for those interested in predictive astrology, I am using Egyptian terms.
Culpeper, that is very interesting. As a fellow Pluto in Scorpio in the 8th, I'll have a look at my own chart following your methods.

Both my 4th and 7th are dignified, 4th ruler is the Moon in Cancer, 7th house ruler is Venus in Libra.

Pluto rules my 8th and it is also dignified. I also have Jupiter in the 1st house, although not dignified.

So far so good, right?

How do the aspects between planets fit into this? For example, my Pluto in the 8th opposes my Jupiter in the 1st.
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Unread 02-03-2009, 02:11 AM
windwaker24 windwaker24 is offline
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Re: Predicting Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper
Modern astrologers have ethical misgivings about this question, but for classical astrology this is the first and most important. However, really, this question should be asked of a professional, for here on the internet you may just get what you pay for. Also it would be nice to have some back ground from you: that is are you caring for children or preparing to go into combat. This would tell me how dangerous your life really is.

But using your chart as an example, I will procede. First I see from the position of the outer planets that you are an adult. Children often post here thinking astrology is just a game.

Using classical houses, the benefic planet Venus rules your 8th house, Libra, and there are no planets in residence. Venus has essential dignity by term, and it is at the top of the chart. This usually indicates a natural death. You have Pisces rising and Jupiter rules your first house. Jupiter also has essential dignity, and this planetary position indicates a long life and good health. This is all based on the strength of the planets.

In classical astrology the first house represents youth, the 10th house the prime of life, the 7th house old age and the 4th, death and its aftermath. The 7th and 4th are ruled by Mercury which also has essential dignity. Thus the chart really indicates a pleasant life and a peaceful death. There are time consuming calculations that could show more details that could indicate some unpleasant times ahead, but I will leave it with this.

Also for those interested in predictive astrology, I am using Egyptian terms.
Interesting, Culpeper! I particularly amazed at how you guessed that I was an adult by just looking at my outer planets. I've never heard of that technique, or maybe I'm just too much of a newbie to understand.

As for background, I didn't give any because I didn't want to bring the room down with negative energy (I've been told I have a lot of that !) Bottom line, My life is nothing but depression and I leave it at that. So in my interpretation, a early and uncomfortable death is not impossible, but your intrepretation is very interesting and I will do some reading on classical astrology.

Another puzzling thing, I noticed my chart comes out different depending on whose software you use. The first one I posted is from cafeastrology.com and it put Mars and Pluto in my 8th house. Then I did one from astro.com and it put them in the 7th house, which could something totally different. My information was entered the same way each time. Any thoughts?
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  #6  
Unread 02-03-2009, 04:03 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

windwaker,
re your last question, I'd say the different programs you used to create your chart were using different house systems.We've actually been discussing this a bit on the Forum lately. Its rather complicated so here's the Ed Board's list of links on the subject of *different house systems*:
The Different House Systems
The houses of the horoscope are shown in the chart wheel as "pie" shaped divisions.
The 12 houses in a chart are determined by the exact clock time of birth. The houses
represent a more physical plane area of of life, whereas the sign describes an approach.
For example: the 7th house is marriage and partners.
The sign Libra acts diplomatically and seeks fairness and justice.

There are at least a dozen or more house systems used by astrologers according to
personal preference.


Learn about them here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...99&postcount=6
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm
http://lessons.astrology.com/course/show/Local-Space-Relocation-Astrology/4378-Astrological-House-Systems
http://astrocom.com/articles/infospecials/IHSX.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Astrological_house_systems
http://astrology.horoscope.com/horoscopes/house-systems.html
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_house1_e.htm

http://www.cyberspacei.com/englishwiz/library/names/zodiac/contents.htm
http://www.astrology.com.au/12signs/index.asp
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/housecusps.html
Hope this helps,
Lillyjgc
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  #7  
Unread 02-14-2009, 01:50 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Has anyone heard of the Hyleg? It's supposed to be the 'giver of life', showing how many years a person might live.
OooOOoooooOoo. Haha. Sorry if that spooked you out.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:29 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Wow the "Hyleg," havent heard that term in awhile. I remember doing some research into that but apparently there are alot of factors to determine what planet the hyleg is. (if i said that properly) Plus there seems to be a few different methods that are used to find it. I read in a older astrology book that the moon in the 8th house could mean death at an early age. But as we all know this is deffenitly not always the case and that other factors are needed to "trigger" that suggestion. Just to add a few comments Also transits seem the offer alot information when predicting death other then the natal promise type of appoach. I have seen my old boss pass away in a motorcycle accident when pluto made a sqaure to his natal mars, my grandpa commit suicide when pluto crossed over his sun, and my friends mother passed away when Saturn made a sqaure to his moon. If you read Robert Hands interpation he'll put you in each of there shoes. I think its a great thing to disect a death chart. Then if those aspects pop up in a friends life they can be made conscious about what is happening and avoid certain situations or channel that energy into a more constructive outlet rather then destructive. Also I would think another reason why astrologers dont like to predict death is because it keeps the debunkers off our back!
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Unread 02-15-2009, 05:42 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

If you use the search feature on the forum you will find this topic has been covered quite extensively.......
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  #10  
Unread 02-18-2009, 02:47 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
If you use the search feature on the forum you will find this topic has been covered quite extensively.......
Actually, I did that first, and I didn't come up with much. It wasn't until posted my question that posts related to my question popped up at the bottom. Thanks for the advice!
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Unread 05-04-2009, 12:26 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper
In classical astrology the first house represents youth, the 10th house the prime of life, the 7th house old age and the 4th, death and its aftermath. The 7th and 4th are ruled by Mercury which also has essential dignity.

Also for those interested in predictive astrology, I am using Egyptian terms.
4th house?
Haha!...
Mines occupied by mars conjunct pluto in scorpio.
HMMMMMM...

My two... pence:
I think when it comes to predicting major events in ones life you really cant make a finite prediction unless you consider the transits they might experience. An ominous transit will trigger powerful energies inside a person. They may not be able to use these energies 'positively' or as a part of themselves and instead are bombarded with them. Resulting in an 'unpleasant' experience.
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Unread 05-04-2009, 03:55 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

windwalker, "death clock" predictions are notoriously unreliable, which is why few reputable modern astrologers use them. Yes, you may find this or that astrologer claiming to predict the astro-signature of someone's death; but then if you compare these measures--they're generally so different that you aren't left with any sound basis. Moreover, as RayAustin noted, there are some serious ethical issues for astrologers predicting death for emotionally fragile clients.

Esp. looking at your Placidus chart, however, I think you might be someone who is very interested in death, as suggested by your Pluto/Mars square sun.

I wonder if you might be interested in volunteering at a hospice, working for a funeral home, writing murder mystery novels, becoming a forensic specialist, or becoming an ER nurse. Your Pluto/Mars are awfully close to the exact sextile with your Mercury (mind) and Neptune (imagination.) You might enjoy reading the mysteries of PD James, who is very Plutonian!
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Unread 06-25-2009, 01:15 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

what about having the followong transits. I just list them here, no chart interpretion, just sth I´ve been pondering...

saturn square sun, opp mars, conj asc

pluto square pluto, natal pluto in hs 1

mars ruler of h8, prog mars in natal 8 hs, progressive mars opp pluto (orb within 10 deg)

In my ears this sounds rather much like death knocking (suicide?)
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Unread 06-26-2009, 07:53 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Gwenyhfair, One of the logical problems with death predictions is that there is no single or even small handful of reliable predictors. People have the above seemingly "morbid" placements and aspects all the time, and they're still alive. In fact, many people are born with them. The baby boomers all went through Pluto square Pluto, for example, when it was in the sign of Scorpio (, 1/12 with Pluto in the first house) with no noticeable rise in mortality.
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Unread 06-26-2009, 08:24 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

yes, I survived the pluto square pluto some years ago. Maybe no raise in mortality but definitely more depression pills, sickness leaves etc.

But what if someone has many hard, destructive transits in a very short period of time, like 1-2 years. And someone who is selfdestructive, has tried suicide, has tried to kill somebody, has been hospitalised (around the saturn return), experiments with medicines, drives drunk repeatedly etc etc....??

Naturally pluto sqare pluto per se, does not indicate death
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Unread 06-26-2009, 10:30 PM
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Red face Re: Predicting Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwenyhfair View Post
yes, I survived the pluto square pluto some years ago. Maybe no raise in mortality but definitely more depression pills, sickness leaves etc.

But what if someone has many hard, destructive transits in a very short period of time, like 1-2 years. And someone who is selfdestructive, has tried suicide, has tried to kill somebody, has been hospitalised (around the saturn return), experiments with medicines, drives drunk repeatedly etc etc....??

Naturally pluto sqare pluto per se, does not indicate death
Gwenyhfair, I saw a near and dear example of this in the case of my mother. She seemingly died of natural causes, but I and some family members believed that she actively tried to help along that process through self-destructive behaviours. She died before I studied astrology. But after I learned a little and looked at her transits, I was shocked and saddened by the difficult ones she was going through when she died, and the difficult ones on the horizon. I think she just didn't have a more constructive way to deal with them.

And this is where I think "death astrology" can be valuable: for a grieving family member to understand in retrospect some of the issues that a loved one faced. Medical astrology, too, is a respected subfield within astrology, and I think that it can, in the hands of a knowledgeable practitioner, say something about people's physical and emotional health problems.

What I don't think astrology can do is to identify a "death signature" in a predictive way. Death circumstances are all so different. I don't think we can say why one person with particular planetary placements dies while another recovers--and even why some people are born with the supposedly death-dealing placements.

My rationale is that the moment of death is as varied and diverse as the moment of birth; in fact, that a death is a "birth" into another dimension. [IMO--I can't say for sure, as I haven't been there.]

Traditional astrology did treat the 8th house as the "house of death." Unfortunately, in past centuries, some notable failures in predicting their monarchs' deaths was part of what contributed to astrologers' disrepute.

As a "boomer" myself, I experienced transiting Pluto square Pluto, followed shortly thereafter by Pluto square sun. I didn't indulge in self-destructive behaviour (more than usual, anyway!) but I did go through an emotional rough patch in which I got myself into psychotherapy.

Pluto's deaths are generally metaphorical, so far as I can tell.
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Unread 06-26-2009, 11:46 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

I wonder if the problem with predicting death is the fact that we understand so very little about it.

We have this tendency to look for tough Mars, Saturn and Pluto aspects when it comes to predicting death, and yet, I lost count of the amount of deaths I saw in which the transits were actually very good..........

Deaths are different, some peaceful, some violent, some sudden, some protracted, and not all of them are sad affairs to the dead person in question. So, when looking at good transits in the chart of a very sick person (release), you might be looking at their death and not even knowing about it.

To be honest, right now I'm very frustrated at how astrology can be slippery.

I've spent some months now studying charts and transits at the moment of death and you know what I came up with? NOTHING.
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Unread 06-27-2009, 05:54 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Rockfish, I realize that a null result in a hypothesis can be frustrating, but I think you have confirmed what other astrological researchers have concluded, as well. Personally, I think it is all to the good, because an unethical, scam artist astrologer could really cause problems for vulnerable, fearful people concerned about their deaths; not to mention unscrupulous relatives anxious to divide up Mom's inheritance.

It appears from your research that a death can be just as individualistic as a birth.
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Unread 06-27-2009, 08:41 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Hi,
When someone is terminally ill (In decumbiture, to say it in the Traditional way), it isn't too hard to *predict* with accuracy at what point they will leave us.There are times when having this information will help the families in both practical and emotional ways, and on a few occasions I have been asked, as an astrologer, to give an indication of time frames.(for example, in one case, family members were overseas and needed to know if they should come back early to say goodbye to their mother. The chart showed yes they should and they did. Their mother died within days of their return...so yes there are valid times when it is both ethical and compassionate to use astrology in this way.
Only 2 years ago my best friend died after a long illness. She asked me specifically to give her a time frame,following her diagnosis, using astrology, which (reluctantly) I did, but it allowed her to get through a very long *to do list* and pace herself and we were both very realistic with the information the astrology gave us.
(At the time this particular friend died, her h8 ruler, the moon, received an exact conjunction by the transiting Mc and the north node was almost exactly conjunct her natal moon in her fourth house.Apart from that, she had Tr. saturn square natal Merc...she had lost the ability to speak and hear not long before her death.Tr.Pluto was conjunct her asc at the time of her death.)

I agree with what you said, Waybread, about unscrupulous fear-mongers-and there are plenty of them, preying on the vulnerable.

I've noticed with death charts, as the time of death approaches, many quincunxes seem to form,by transit to natal planets, (adjustments to be made) and the hours afterwards seem to have lots of quintiles.(easy and *spiritual* energies)..

In regard to predicting the death of an apparently well and healthy person, I think no. People can turn this into some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.What good can it possibly do?
An amateur astrologer looking at my current transits over the last week or so may well have predicted my death!(prematurely, as it turns out)
: Tr Pluto cj asc (square natal sun)...opp Tr sun right on desc... also square Natal sun. It's over. I'm still here.
One friend currently has Tr.Pluto opp his natal moon/Ur conj,(in h8) square his natal mars (h12)which is opposite his sun/merc cj.(h6).The sun conjoined the moon/uranus end of that equation when the sun was opposite pluto ...hes still alive and well too.
So while transits can look very bad, even a passing trine can be enough to save the Native.Its very hard to predict death the way it was traditionally done.
Cheers
Lillyjgc

Last edited by lillyjgc; 06-27-2009 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Added further info.
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Unread 06-27-2009, 08:29 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Thanks waybread, I'm afraid you're right.

I may be having to deal with the fact that it is not possible through transits, not when death is not iminent, as lilly said...

What frustrates me the most are all the stories about the great astrologers who predicted their own deaths with years in advance and all. I would like to know how the hell they did that; I don't want to know that in order to predict people's deaths left and right, but in a search for more accuracy in astrology, for more understanding on how it works. I thought death was a good subject to research because in many cases it is accurately documented, something that other events of life sometimes aren't... There is a good sample in the royal families from pre-modern Europe, many of them have accurate birth time, since their births were a state affair, and their deaths (day, sometimes time, and manner) are also well documented. So far nothing definitive.

To be honest, I feel like wading through a swamp. But I reckon I myself have to develop my skills if I am to find anything of interest. I have to finally wrap my mind around those maddening progressions (so far, they make no sense to me), lunations, etc...

I'm about to buy Astrology of Death, by Richard Houck.

BTW, there's an interesting story about Eudes Picard, which I don't know if it's true, but I will repeat it anyway. I read in "L´enigme du zodiaque", by Jacques Sadoul (very interesting read, dunno the name in english), that a man decided to test Picard by giving him a chart to read. The man decided to fool the astrologer, and told him the chart belonged to an adult of his acquaintance. The astrologer replied: "This is not the person you are describing, the person depicted in this chart has passed away in childhood". Which was right.

The question is: how the hell did he know THAT!!!!
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Unread 06-27-2009, 11:03 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Rockfish, my own personal belief is that some astrologers are psychic, and that the glyphs and degrees of astrology are merely devices that help them get in touch with their clairvoyant abilities. Other psychics might use crystal balls, tarot cards, or tea leaves. The ones who are known simply as "psychics" don't rely on such props. Everyone has intuitive abilities to some degree, and I think astrology can help astrologers develop this capacity.

In cases like the one you describe, however, I don't think it is the horoscope per se that gives that information.

I realize that traditional astrologers would disagree with me, because traditional astrology does have a very long history of predicting death. Also, some astrologers are far more skillful and knowledgeable than I will ever become, so just possibly if I knew what they know, I might change my mind.

And then again, how often do the astrology articles make a big issue out of incorrect predictions? I think these just slink away. Like Britain's foremost pre-war mundane astrologer, Charles Carter, failing to predict World War II.

But to take Lilly's very thoughtful and intriguing post (by a traditional astrologer), I don't dispute that quincunxes might be prominent at the time of some deaths. But I don't see them as reliable predictors of death. Right now on the planet a child is born every 2-3 seconds, so quincunxes don't always have a death-dealing effect.

In terms of medical astrology, there are many different causes of death and decumbiture. So it makes sense to me to think that death horoscopes should equally be highly individualistic.
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Unread 06-28-2009, 03:14 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

hi everyone
this thread has been very interesting thanks.

waybread.... you said..... It appears from your research that a death can be just as individualistic as a birth.

I think this is where one should begin to study someones demise... If one should have to do this. Me id prefer not to know.

my dad died suddenly in his sleep one night age 49
My sister and i had just given birth to our girls 1 week prior.
very emotional time.
His health background unhealthy eating in his youth and early adult life little excersise and smoker. Not over weight though!
stressfull work life then at around 44 got diabeties.. It was undiagnosed and so it had affected his heart. thats how he found out, by a heart attack which left the bottom of his heart muscles deajected.
he was on severl insulin injections daily then tapered to 3

Just before he died his skin was a little jaundousy now that i think about it and showed up in photos holding his new granddaughters. showing liver damage is suspect.

this is his chart at the time of death.


birth sorry about the long charts the little 0nes were fuzzy.







so firstly i see his ic is 15 deg aries ruler mars which is placed on his asc at death.

also moons node at time of death was conjunct his sun
saturn was 18 aqu conj his natal 2nd house.. he allways felt haveing diabeties was a hit to his self esteem.

his natal mars and uranus being early gemini was also hit with a stellium of 4 plannets.. mars seems to crop up here alot.
chiron was conj his north node leo sign of heart

Last edited by DiDi; 06-28-2009 at 03:36 AM.
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Unread 06-28-2009, 08:06 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Do you think there are big differences in transits at the time of death when death is unexpected and sudden,like by an accident,instead of death by natural causes or an illness?
I imagine that when someone has a natural death after an illness or old age,it's more a relieve for him,so there could be as well a big positive aspect.But when death is sudden,that's not necessarily the case.Mars or Uranus could play a big role in this as well.
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Unread 06-28-2009, 10:24 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Here is a link on death and astrology.
When my sister was killed she had Pluto oppose her Asc besides other markers in her chart.
Someday I will post her chart with my analysis...

http://death.findyourfate.com/death-myths.htm
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Unread 06-28-2009, 10:38 PM
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waybread waybread is offline
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Re: Predicting Death

Lost spirit and Didi, thanks for your examples. Deanna, thanks for the link. I guess they reinforce MHO that something astrological happens at the moment of death; but that the horoscopes are so different that they don't make good predictors for someone else.
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