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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 12-19-2019, 03:01 AM
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12 parts

I've been stewing on this for a few months and now I'm finally opening on a thread on the topic.

Has anyone have experience using the 12th parts in prognostication and prediction? If so, what have you found with using them, and would you recommend they be used more often.

Here are a series of articles pertaining to the 12th parts/dodecatemoria -

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/t...atemory-signs/

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/t...-secret-chart/

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/f...-head-morinus/

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/e...twelfth-parts/

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/d...vid-carpenter/

It is mentioned that it was an ancient opinion that the 12th parts are on par with natal placements, and that a lot of apparent discrepancies are cleared up when they are factored in.

Alice McDermott as a modern proponent of dwads has greatly raised the techniques flag, emphasizing its importance despite the apparent unimpressive way these secondary placements are derived. Although the inheritor of this heritage, she would not be classified as a traditional astrologer.

There was a recent discussion on the forum in regard to twins. Alice McDermott has advanced that dwads help to differentiate the character and destiny of twins. Obviously this would be mostly relevant to the dwad of the ascendant.

If you are just hearing about 12th parts and you are the type who is intrigued by any new astrological technique that you could explore and potentially add to your process, I believe this is a good candidate to investigate.

Happy to open the floor for any participation on the matter.


Last edited by conspiracy theorist; 12-19-2019 at 03:47 AM.
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Unread 12-19-2019, 04:48 AM
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Re: 12 parts

Yeah I've been seeing posts on this in the Facebook Traditional Astrology groups. Very intriguing but a little daunting kind of like getting into Anticias. It's enough to give me a massive headache. In the examples given on the pages you link to, they seem to work looking at extreme cases where nothing else in the chart explains them - e.g. serial killers. It was hard enough to switch to whole sign houses and look at my own chart entirely differently - throwing the 12th harmonic into it...well ...my original quadrant based Sag Sun in the 10th house moved to the 11th in WSH. Now in the 12 parts its in the 12th house in Cancer. I feel like Sybil.
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Unread 12-19-2019, 05:25 AM
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Re: 12 parts

I looked mine up using kaktuzz's site. It is interesting, like that certain something you can't always put your finger on and isn't spelled out in a natal chart could be indicated here. I generally feel my natal chart isn't sufficiently descriptive so, pretty cool. In 12th parts there are a ton of water placements, a water grand trine involving both lights and 5 planets, a Moon-Mercury conjunction, etc. Sun is at the MC which is oddly calming.

Are you trying to use these predictively for timing?
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Unread 12-22-2019, 02:39 AM
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Re: 12 parts

Kite, would you say that you got greater insight into the mechanics of your chart when you factored in the placements of 12th parts, despite their daunting nature? With the speed at which the 12th parts move it does provide even more individuating factors to a natal chart

I like extreme charts because they have a way of subverting expectations on neatly pat and mindlessly repeated astrological axioms. He's given the example of David Carpenter, as well as Jeffrey Dahmer when outlining the insight that can be gleaned from 12th parts. He's also shown how the 12th part of Mars shows up in the 1st house for both Bruce Lee and Van Damme. I've been aware of the techniques utility for a long time now, I just haven't incorporated into my astrological practice more regularly.

Passiflora, I've definitely gained more descriptive value when I factor in 12th parts in my chart. 12th part of ascendant goes to Libra, exalted Saturn at the MC (by antiscia Saturn is within range of the MC), Mercury conjunct Saturn, Saturn conjunct ascendant and Sun in Aquarius goes a ways to explain certain airy/Saturnine characteristics about myself that I think an Aquarius Moon didn't capture. 12th part of Mars and MC fall in Scorpio, the 12th sign and with Mars having some bearing on my personality (as bound ruler at the ascendant) also goes a ways to describe certain tendencies that I've noted about myself. Alongside Jupiter in the 9th sign it goes a ways to describe my heavy attraction to the occult, magic, spirituality and philosophy. Moon in 1st, Sun in 3rd, with Jupiter in 9th emphasizes travel.

I'm exploring them, like Kite I find them very intriguing. I would certainly incorporate them into predictions, although I'm not usually deep diving into charts where I'd have a desire to look at the dodek positions. It's something I will bare in mind for the future, for certain.

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Unread 12-22-2019, 04:07 AM
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Re: 12 parts

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Kite, would you say that you got greater insight into the mechanics of your chart when you factored in the placements of 12th parts, despite their daunting nature? With the speed at which the 12th parts move it does provide even more individuating factors to a natal chart
Well I'm not sure I've gotten greater insight yet. I do see more squares, cardinal positions and more dignity so perhaps there is much more driving me than I'm aware. My ascendant flipped from Aquarius to Leo which is interesting - Venus is now conjunct the part of occultism and the 12 part Neptune is conjunct the old Neptune spot in MC so it does point to interest areas. Uranus is conjunct the NN in the 9th so maybe that's my astrologer signature.
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Unread 12-22-2019, 03:17 PM
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I started using these right away fruitfully in my own life. These are all psychological or relationship-oriented somethings i could feel sort of but again, weren’t explained sufficiently or at all by the natal chart.
It is very interesting to see them in synastry also. My natal synastry with my husband has always confused me a bit, but my 12th part Sun is conjunct his natal Sun.
I like your Saturn-mercury conjunct ascendant!

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Unread 12-22-2019, 11:46 PM
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Re: 12 parts

My D12 chart looks pretty much like my normal chart if angles are considered.
On the other hand, the D12 chart of my husband is pretty strange looking. The MC is 25 degrees after the Asc.
Does yours look something like that, conspiracy theorist? I was reading your post about Saturn's location and trying to make sense of it and had assumed you meant Saturn was conjunct MC by antiscia only, until seeing this weird chart.
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Unread 12-23-2019, 12:01 AM
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Re: 12 parts

I was combining the natal Saturn situation with the 12th part of the planet. N. Saturn in Pisces, antiscia with N. Libra MC. 12P. Mercury is in conjunction with natal Saturn (so the conjunction occurs in Pisces, 4th sign). 12P. Saturn falls in Libra, right at the MC. 12P. ASC is conjunct 12P. Saturn in Libra. Both are in conjunction with MC and lot of spirit. Bearing in mind that Libra is the exaltation of Saturn.

Mine would probably align with your husband's in terms of a non-traditional layout. 12P MC is a sign over from the 12P ASC.

Saturn is also stationing in my chart, which even more so makes it a prominent energy signature. Factor in Saturn's conjunction with lot of fortune and 12th part of Saturn's conjunction with lot of spirit and we see just how much of a power player the planet is in my chart, where it's natal position makes it seem very innocuous.

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Unread 12-23-2019, 07:05 PM
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Re: 12 parts

12th Parts make my head hurt.

I'm sure that you can get more information from them, as does Anthony from the blog you posted, but when I use them things quickly become a mess. You start by considering the 12th Part of a point and then next thing you know you're looking at aspects between 12th parts and aspects between 12th Parts and natal planets.......it just becomes too much.

Anthony said in his post on delineation that 12th Parts are part of the idea of using astrology as a system of "signs". We look for multiple indications of something before making a judgment....the so called "Rule of 3" is a good example of that. You see something once, maybe, see it twice then probably, see it three times and then it's almost certain. 12th Parts are just another way of looking for those indications.....but I personally find that they get confusing fast.

But that's just me. Other people seem to get them to work, but I find that they turn things into a soup of potential indicators.

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Unread 12-23-2019, 07:21 PM
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Re: 12 parts

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12th Parts make my head hurt.

I'm sure that you can get more information from them, as does Anthony from the blog you posted, but when I use them things quickly become a mess. You start by considering the 12th Part of a point and then next thing you know you're looking at aspects between 12th parts and aspects between 12th Parts and natal planets.......it just becomes too much.

Anthony said in his post on delineation that 12th Parts are part of the idea of using astrology as a system of "signs". We look for multiple indications of something before making a judgment....the so called "Rule of 3" is a good example of that. You see something once, maybe, see it twice then probably, see it three times and then it's almost certain. 12th Parts are just another way of looking for those indications.....but I personally find that they get confusing fast.

But that's just me. Other people seem to get them to work, but I find that they turn things into a soup of potential indicators.
The Hellenists never managed to make a distinctive use of their numerological divisions compared to what can be found in the natal, unlike the Indians, who made sophisticated use of divisions in specific ways, for example the 12th parts and their relationship with each other is used mainly for parents, the decans for siblings etc. for the remaining 13 traditional divisions (called vargas).

So you end up having horas (hours in Hephaistio), drekkanas (Chaldean decans usually, but there is an alternative system in Manilius), saptamsas (Valens alternative system of seven terms based on the winds is something similar) navamsas (thirds of decans - called leitourgoi or ministers among some), dvadasamsa (dodekatemoria and the alternative 13 multiple system used by Paulus and the Babylonians), trimsamsas (monomoiria of which I know at least 4 different systems) shastiamsas (fifths of the 12th parts alloted to each of the five stars according to Manilius) with no specific use, but to make things confusing or add yet another planetary fief as Bouché-Leclercq scoffingly calls it.

Ptolemy rejects all of them.

Quote:
''22. Of Places and Degrees.
Some have made even finer divisions of rulership than these, using the terms "places" and "degrees." Defining "place" as twelfth part of a sign, or 2½°, they assign the domination over them to the signs in order. Others follow other illogical orders; and again they assign each "degree" from the beginning to each of the planets of each sign in accordance with the Chaldaean order of terms. These matters, as they have only plausible and not natural, but, rather, unfounded, arguments in their favour, we shall omit.''
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/1B*.html#22

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Unread 12-23-2019, 07:36 PM
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Re: 12 parts

That's an understandable criticism with regard to the 12th parts. I am aware that the relative simplicity of mainstream traditional practice is one of its selling points, especially from those that are dissatisfied with the more permissible and subjective practices of modern (psychological) astrology.

It's not just for the sake of reinforcing existing natal placements, but 12th parts are to be read in their own right, providing more information that one might otherwise miss if you aren't cognizant of them.

As to being too much -- that may be a matter of opinion. If we look at the Jyotish system of astrology, the amount of yogas, divisional charts, nakshatras, planetary friendships and derived charts that are considered are on a level of magnitude more complex than a traditional method of astrology, even if 12th parts, lots and antiscia placements are factored into the methodology. Jyotish seems to hold up well despite the immense amount of data that is looked at.

But as you said, different strokes. From personal experimentation they seem promising, and once I have some time I will be inputting them into more charts to see what kind of information may be gleaned.
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Unread 12-23-2019, 07:38 PM
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Re: 12 parts

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The Hellenists never managed to make a distinctive use of their numerological divisions compared to what can be found in the natal, unlike the Indians, who made sophisticated use of divisions in specific ways, for example the 12th parts and their relationship with each other is used mainly for parents, the decans for siblings etc. for the remaining 13 traditional divisions (called vargas).

So you end up having horas (hours in Hephaistio), drekkanas (Chaldean decans usually, but there is an alternative system in Manilius), saptamsas (Valens alternative system of seven terms based on the winds is something similar) navamsas (thirds of decans - called leitourgoi or ministers among some), dvadasamsa (dodekatemoria and the alternative 13 multiple system used by Paulus and the Babylonians), trimsamsas (monomoiria of which I know at least 4 different systems) shastiamsas (fifths of the 12th parts alloted to each of the five stars according to Manilius) with no specific use, but to make things confusing or add yet another planetary fief as Bouché-Leclercq scoffingly calls it.

Ptolemy rejects all of them.
You're right on the Greeks not really outlining a procedure for using them well. In Vedic astrology the D12 chart has a distinct meaning. Not so for Hellenistic 12th parts.

I forgot which author it was (I think it was Rhetorius or maybe Paulus?) who got the closest to saying how to use them. If a planet is well placed but its 12th part isn't, then the good indicated by the planet is kind of hampered, but if a planet is poorly placed but its 12th part is, then the planet benefits from that.

But them people like Maternus go on to interpret them like secondary planetary positions and things just get confusing fast. He does the same thing with antiscia.
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Unread 12-24-2019, 05:55 PM
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Re: 12 parts

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You're right on the Greeks not really outlining a procedure for using them well. In Vedic astrology the D12 chart has a distinct meaning. Not so for Hellenistic 12th parts.

I forgot which author it was (I think it was Rhetorius or maybe Paulus?) who got the closest to saying how to use them. If a planet is well placed but its 12th part isn't, then the good indicated by the planet is kind of hampered, but if a planet is poorly placed but its 12th part is, then the planet benefits from that.

But them people like Maternus go on to interpret them like secondary planetary positions and things just get confusing fast. He does the same thing with antiscia.
Rhetorius does mention that, but he also mentions their usage for a few specific things like the twelfth-part of the Moon in relation to rank. Pretty sure that Dorotheus, Valens, Paulus and Rhetorius do mention them for some specific things that are not just another dignity, like Dorotheus and Valens use them for the prediction of gender. I am generally against such procedures (like triplicity rulers of the sect light) that use some astronomical thing exclusively for some very specific thing, but completely ignore it for anything else without explanation, as if it does not exist. I take pleasure in using few simple technical methods consistently and for everything, as did Ptolemy for the most part (he does not prefer the house ruler to the triplicity ruler for one thing, but the other for another, except for two instances in his whole work).

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Unread 12-24-2019, 06:04 PM
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Re: 12 parts

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As to being too much -- that may be a matter of opinion. If we look at the Jyotish system of astrology, the amount of yogas, divisional charts, nakshatras, planetary friendships and derived charts that are considered are on a level of magnitude more complex than a traditional method of astrology, even if 12th parts, lots and antiscia placements are factored into the methodology. Jyotish seems to hold up well despite the immense amount of data that is looked at.
Ptolemy would see not only that as too much, but even the Hellenistic method that factored all planetary placements, configurations, houses and lots, which does not attack any particular topic one by one, but instead looks at all placements and tries to come up with delineation. Manetho and Firmicus present this method, which probably comes from Nechepso and Petosiris (Manetho and Stephan Heilen say so). Dorotheus and Valens (and Medieval astrology in general) are somewhere in between the direct methods of Ptolemy and the indirect methods of Nechepso and Petosiris (whose works do not survive), since they do have headings on particular topics, but usually also lists of delineations for placements and aspects. The Indian methods are more similar to the early Hellenistic tradition. As for complexity, I hope you are implying that it is more difficult, not that is has greater predictive power, since I haven't seen any great evidence for that. Traditional astrology has always had methods and adapted for everything in whatever time period and culture it was used, just like Indian astrology was adapted to the customs, religions and castes of their region.

Quote:
Since it is our present purpose to treat of this division likewise systematically on the basis of the discussion, introduced at the beginning of this compendium, of the possibility of prediction of this kind, we shall decline to present the ancient method of prediction, which brings into combination all or most of the stars, because it is manifold and well-nigh infinite, if one wishes to recount it with accuracy. Besides, it depends much more upon the particular attempts of those who make their inquiries directly from nature than of those who can theorize on the basis of the traditions; and furthermore we shall omit it on account of the difficulty in using it and following it. - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/3A*.html#1
Valens has a long list for all combinations of two or three planets, and then says:

Quote:
This then is what we have explained with respect to the distinctive characteristics of individual stars as well as several taken together. If other stars share the configuration (being in conjunction or in aspect), the reading of the horoscope will be changed according to the nature of the additional star. However I did not want to continue writing at length about such additional factors, because the old astrologers have expounded them already... https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
Which could mean they have written even on that. This is probably what transferred to the Yavanajataka, which does have more surviving delineations for divisions.

Check Chapter 34 of Pingree's translation. It has a list of delineations for all dodekatemoria placements. Here is an example for Gemini ''The Sun in the dvadasamsa of the third sign (Gemini) makes his father one who practices such things as sacrifices and is wealthy in family, the Moon, which creates beauty, the respect of good men, and power, causes the happiness of his mother; Jupiter one whose money is gathered from fine arts, oratory, and the sacred traditions; Mars a person who is the same to men and women and who has ignoble sons; Venus a man with handsome form who is learned in the fine arts, a clever person who takes pleasure in women; Mercury one who is learned in oratory, sacred traditions, and crafts, whose friends are famous, and who speaks sweetly; and Saturn a fickle person who practices mischief and bad craftsmanship, and whose old age is attained with the strength of youth.''

Let's be real, I think I am more happy this material didn't survive in the west.

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Unread 12-25-2019, 09:30 PM
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Re: 12 parts

There are crusaders for every kind of astrology, some of the most vehement coming from the Indian branch. I have heard rave reviews about the efficacy of their predictive techniques, but I haven't tested them for myself nor paid much attention to Vedic proponents of said techniques. Hence any opinion I would have on Jyotish predictive power would be based on incomplete information. Apart from loud fanatics, I am open to there being something to those techniques but any deep investigation and testing would be a ways off into the future at this point.

When you say you are glad that 'this material' hasn't survived in the West, are you speaking about the concepts espoused by the authors you've mentioned, or divisional charts in general? Not only are divisional charts not dead in the West, but they seem to be growing in popularity. Here is one example provided in this link https://mountainastrologer.com/tma/harmonic-charts/. Anyone can chime in to set the record straight, but these developments may have more to do with technological advances applied to astrology, and not Indian influence.

Quote:
Check Chapter 34 of Pingree's translation. It has a list of delineations for all dodekatemoria placements. Here is an example for Gemini ''The Sun in the dvadasamsa of the third sign (Gemini) makes his father one who practices such things as sacrifices and is wealthy in family, the Moon, which creates beauty, the respect of good men, and power, causes the happiness of his mother; Jupiter one whose money is gathered from fine arts, oratory, and the sacred traditions; Mars a person who is the same to men and women and who has ignoble sons; Venus a man with handsome form who is learned in the fine arts, a clever person who takes pleasure in women; Mercury one who is learned in oratory, sacred traditions, and crafts, whose friends are famous, and who speaks sweetly; and Saturn a fickle person who practices mischief and bad craftsmanship, and whose old age is attained with the strength of youth.''
Reminds me when I used to tease my brother about being a grave robber many years ago after reading a configuration he had in one of these ancient books, perhaps Maternus or Dorotheus. I tend to take a more spirit of the law approach myself.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 09:32 PM
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Re: 12 parts

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Reminds me when I used to tease my brother about being a grave robber many years ago after reading a configuration he had in one of these ancient books, perhaps Maternus or Dorotheus. I tend to take a more spirit of the law approach myself.
I used to do the exact same thing when I started with traditional astrology.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 09:40 PM
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Re: 12 parts

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When you say you are glad that 'this material' hasn't survived in the West, are you speaking about the concepts espoused by the others you've mentioned, or divisional charts in general? Not only are divisional charts not dead in the West, but they seem to be growing in popularity. Here is one example provided in this link https://mountainastrologer.com/tma/harmonic-charts/. Anyone can chime in to set the record straight, but these developments may have more to do with technological advances applied to astrology, and not Indian influence.
I would say that their usage declined during the Renaissance despite the available greater precision that wasn't 5 degree error on average, because there was movement towards naturalism. Firmicus and the others at the time couldn't possibly had more than 50% right D12 computations. That puts a big philosophical ? for me. Today you clearly do not have that problem (software and all, also little naturalism in modern astrology), except for a few Indian astrologers who prefer using their traditional astronomical texts which do have a couple degree difference compared to NASA (they do exist).
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