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  #26  
Unread 06-29-2019, 10:49 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Thats interesting and resonates. So how do I draw a chart with the age indicator ?
Tropical or sidereal?

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  #27  
Unread 06-29-2019, 10:56 AM
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Tropical or sidereal?
I suppose sidereal is more accurate ?
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  #28  
Unread 06-29-2019, 11:39 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

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I suppose sidereal is more accurate ?
The setting is different for the tropical zodiac. The reason is, the Earth's tilt is already in use, locating the tropical Sign-boundaries. So, the tropical wheel rotates with the sidereal Age-indicator, and it always stays put at the 1st point of tropical Aries.
Instead of using Earth's tilt relative to the Sun, the tropical version utilizes the elliptical shape of Earth's orbit relative to the Sun. As in the sidereal case, Earth's wobble causes the transit, but it's Direct through the tropical zodiac, as opposed to the Retrograde movement of the sidereally placed Age-indicator. And, a tropical Age-degree generation is about 58 years, instead the sidereal 72 years.
Now I'm going to have to get on with starting the new Ages thread to fully explain the astronomy of the tropical version, along with what led to its discovery.
For now, I'll just say that it's currently at a median, or "Mean" location of 27 degrees 45 minutes of tropical Capricorn, Direct. So, this ongoing capoeira fight between Pluto and Saturn in late Cap has everything to do with the transition from the tropical Age of Capricorn into the tropical Age of Aquarius. Very crucial situation in the Age context.
The Retrograde sidereal Age of Pisces is far less crisis-ridden. The location of the sidereal Age-indicator in a sidereal zodiac is equivalent to the "ayanamsa", which is in early sidereal Pisces--but, exactly where is entirely dependent on how the individual siderealist sets the sidereal Sign-boundaries.

Last edited by david starling; 06-29-2019 at 12:08 PM.
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  #29  
Unread 06-29-2019, 12:12 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

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I suppose sidereal is more accurate ?
Short answer, no, not when it comes to mundane affairs. Sidereal is more about our spiritual orientation.
For example, Capitalism is easily relatable to an Age of Capricorn, but not to an Age of Pisces or an Age of Aquarius.

Last edited by david starling; 06-29-2019 at 12:16 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 06-29-2019, 01:06 PM
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Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

Hmm I guess that's one way to look at it. Then is this age indicator suitable for personal charts? And if we have not yet entered the age of aquarius or we are about to, then Capitalism makes sense. Plus Capitalism will fall down soon, imts inevitable.
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  #31  
Unread 06-29-2019, 04:36 PM
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Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

To answer the OP: your question is rather... vague. If we want a statistic we got to have a definite criteria. What do you mean by "overcome Saturn's lessons and become a master of what Saturn represents"? "Lesson" can mean different things for different people. To one person, Saturn in Gemini is a call for purposeful communication, while to another it means an urge for more flexible thinking. Seems like we are having a problem with the definition of "lesson".


Also, it's actually difficult to isolate a planet and use it to judge an entire life progress. Literally every planet in our chart has a lesson to teach us, and ignoring them is fatal. Not to mention Saturn in two different charts can be situated in different houses and form different aspects even when they are in the same sign. There are just too many variations to do statistic.



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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Hmm I guess that's one way to look at it. Then is this age indicator suitable for personal charts? And if we have not yet entered the age of aquarius or we are about to, then Capitalism makes sense. Plus Capitalism will fall down soon, imts inevitable.
Speaking of capitalism, there was this little thing called "Communism" that was originally intended to be an opposition to capitalism. And we all know how it ended. According to David, we are only on our way to a new Age recently, so the time of Communism was still at the Age of Capricorn. I don't want to dive too deep into politics. I just wonder what the astrological component of that communism thing. Why didn't it succeed despite having a good concept? Was that because it had the misfortune of being born in the Capricorn Age.
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  #32  
Unread 06-29-2019, 05:17 PM
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Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

How do you know where to put the age indicator if you don't know when the age began?

Did it begin with the discovery of Uranus and Franklin's kite? Or with the advent of the Sixth Sun in 2012?

And what does the Age have to do with me? I am its product and must live in my times, but other than that...?
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  #33  
Unread 06-29-2019, 05:57 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

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How do you know where to put the age indicator if you don't know when the age began?

Did it begin with the discovery of Uranus and Franklin's kite? Or with the advent of the Sixth Sun in 2012?

And what does the Age have to do with me? I am its product and must live in my times, but other than that...?
[IMO] It's in your Chart as a major indicator. Its placement is by astronomy and astrology, not by intuition or mundane event. The Age can be sensed intuitively, and encourages the mundane events, instead of the other way around.

Most of the different start-dates for the Aquarian Age in a sidereal Chart are due to differing ayanamsas. A one-degree difference in Sign-placement causes a 71.6 difference as to when it begins. Those who use intuition and/or a mundane event to get the start-date, are deliberately setting the sidereal Sign-boundaries to make it so. But true siderealists are setting those boundaries by other means, then locating the Age-indicator (normally the Vernal Equinoctial Point), and calculating the year it will reach sidereal Aquarius. With the Aldebaran ayanamsa, the Vernal Point (VP) will currently reach sidereal Aquarius in 5 degrees X 71.6 years, which puts the Aquarian Age over 350 years in the future. The VP relative to Aldebaran Sign location reached 5 degrees sidereal Pisces in 2018, and is moving steadily Retrograde.

It's going to take some explaining as to why and where the Age-indicator is in a tropical Chart. I'm terms of the astronomical mechanics, it's similar to Black Lilith, in that it has both a Mean placement and a True placement. The True placement jumps back and and forth +/- 2 degrees relative to the Mean placement, which reached 27 degrees tropical Capricorn in 1975. At 58.1 years per degree of steady Direct-movement, it's now @ 27degrees 45minutes tropical Cap, with Pluto and Saturn nearing Conj. Fasten your safety-belts!

Last edited by david starling; 06-29-2019 at 07:37 PM.
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  #34  
Unread 06-29-2019, 06:08 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
To answer the OP: your question is rather... vague. If we want a statistic we got to have a definite criteria. What do you mean by "overcome Saturn's lessons and become a master of what Saturn represents"? "Lesson" can mean different things for different people. To one person, Saturn in Gemini is a call for purposeful communication, while to another it means an urge for more flexible thinking. Seems like we are having a problem with the definition of "lesson".


Also, it's actually difficult to isolate a planet and use it to judge an entire life progress. Literally every planet in our chart has a lesson to teach us, and ignoring them is fatal. Not to mention Saturn in two different charts can be situated in different houses and form different aspects even when they are in the same sign. There are just too many variations to do statistic.




Speaking of capitalism, there was this little thing called "Communism" that was originally intended to be an opposition to capitalism. And we all know how it ended. According to David, we are only on our way to a new Age recently, so the time of Communism was still at the Age of Capricorn. I don't want to dive too deep into politics. I just wonder what the astrological component of that communism thing. Why didn't it succeed despite having a good concept? Was that because it had the misfortune of being born in the Capricorn Age.
It's an adversarial Age, so enemies must be demonized and fought against. In this Age, political power "grows out of the barrel of a gun", to quote Mao. Functional communism can't be forced through violence.
Notice the technology that resulted from the "Cold War", including the space station and the internet. That's with Saturn as Age-lord, so it's not all bad.

Last edited by david starling; 06-29-2019 at 06:59 PM.
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  #35  
Unread 06-29-2019, 06:48 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

The Mean tropical Age-indicator, which has steady Direct-movement, will reach tropical Aquarius in 2149. It will reach 28 degrees tropical Capricorn in 2033, the same year the True Age-indicator makes first contact with tropical Aquarius in over 20,000 years. Then the True placement will jump back into Capricorn, due to the Moon orbiting the Earth. MUCH easier to track the Mean placement of the tropical Age-indicator than the True, because the True has to be calculated for each separate year based on calendar-date and time, one year to the next for Earth's Point of Perihelion. Unless someone comes up with software for that.

Last edited by david starling; 06-29-2019 at 07:01 PM.
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  #36  
Unread 06-29-2019, 06:53 PM
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Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

Well, there is no doubt in my mind that the human race has entered a new epoch in its history, unlike anything that has come before.
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  #37  
Unread 06-29-2019, 07:07 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

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Well, there is no doubt in my mind that the human race has entered a new epoch in its history, unlike anything that has come before.
Yes, but it's the culminating result of the tropical Age-indicator placement in all of our Charts, which has been in Capricorn since the Dark Ages. Capricorn is an amazing Sign. The Aquarian Age will be amazing in its own way, when it finally takes full effect.
According to logical and historical pattern, Cardinal-sign Ages show full results at the end, whereas Fixed-sign Ages get off to an immediate start. Inevitable that the culmination of the Age of Capricorn is being confused as the onset of the Aquarian Age, when the tropical Age of Capricorn is an unknown unknown. The sidereal Age of Pisces can't explain the changes that we're going through in the mundane world.

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  #38  
Unread 06-29-2019, 07:25 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Hmm I guess that's one way to look at it. Then is this age indicator suitable for personal charts? And if we have not yet entered the age of aquarius or we are about to, then Capitalism makes sense. Plus Capitalism will fall down soon, imts inevitable.
People make the world what it is. It's the aggregate response, which varies from one person to another, to the Age-indicator in all of our personal Charts, that characterizes the Age.
In other words, people make the Age what it is.

Last edited by david starling; 06-29-2019 at 07:31 PM.
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  #39  
Unread 06-29-2019, 08:14 PM
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Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

Of course but we are always influenced by energies.

And if we are at the end of age of Capricorn this means the Uranus/Neptune Capricorn must be extremely important for the culmination . What do you think ? Same with the current generation that's being born right now with the Pluto/Saturn conjunction in Capricorn . Quite interesting 🤔
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  #40  
Unread 06-29-2019, 09:07 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

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Of course but we are always influenced by energies.

And if we are at the end of age of Capricorn this means the Uranus/Neptune Capricorn must be extremely important for the culmination . What do you think ? Same with the current generation that's being born right now with the Pluto/Saturn conjunction in Capricorn . Quite interesting ��
Yes, it's all coming together. I'm watching for when Saturn reaches Aquarius. It'll go in, then out, and back in again next year. Pluto in Aquarius will be monumental for the continuing transition. That's 2024 thru 2044. I count Age-degree generations using the Mean setting, so a new generation began in 1975 at 27 degrees, and a new generation will begin in 2033 at 28 degrees.

You're right, people make the Age what it is based on the Ages influence in their charts.

Last edited by david starling; 06-29-2019 at 09:50 PM.
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  #41  
Unread 06-29-2019, 09:28 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

I see the Age-indicator as Domiciled in Taurus, so the Domicle-ruler of Aquarius in Taurus is also significant.
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  #42  
Unread 06-30-2019, 10:26 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

Very fortunate to have a spiritual-sidereal Age of Pisces concurrent with the mundane-tropical Age of Capricorn. Things would be much worse otherwise. And, having both Ages of Aquarius concurrent will be a VERY rare and fortunate occurrence, especially regarding Saturn.
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  #43  
Unread 06-30-2019, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Very fortunate to have a spiritual-sidereal Age of Pisces concurrent with the mundane-tropical Age of Capricorn. Things would be much worse otherwise. And, having both Ages of Aquarius concurrent will be a VERY rare and fortunate occurrence, especially regarding Saturn.
I wonder if this is somehow tied to the fact that Saturn is losing it's ring...
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  #44  
Unread 07-01-2019, 01:34 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

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I wonder if this is somehow tied to the fact that Saturn is losing it's ring...
Interesting....

I'm convinced that Tolkien was using Sauron, "Lord of the Rings", as allegorical for Saturn. As far as I know, he never came right out and said it though. In the end, Sauron's most important ring was destroyed in a volcano through the efforts of hobbits, which are Piscean-like creatures.

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  #45  
Unread 07-01-2019, 02:27 AM
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Yes, it's all coming together. I'm watching for when Saturn reaches Aquarius. It'll go in, then out, and back in again next year. Pluto in Aquarius will be monumental for the continuing transition. That's 2024 thru 2044. I count Age-degree generations using the Mean setting, so a new generation began in 1975 at 27 degrees, and a new generation will begin in 2033 at 28 degrees.

You're right, people make the Age what it is based on the Ages influence in their charts.
I have both Saturn and Pluto in my natal 5th house. Aquarius is in my 8th house. So they will aspect their natal position by square when they transit to my 8th house Aquarius.
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  #46  
Unread 07-01-2019, 02:51 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

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I have both Saturn and Pluto in my natal 5th house. Aquarius is in my 8th house. So they will aspect their natal position by square when they transit to my 8th house Aquarius.
Good point. I have Saturn @ 2 degrees Leo, so transit Saturn will be opposite natal early on.
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  #47  
Unread 07-01-2019, 03:43 AM
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Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

About the age-degree generations: The last 72 year period of 1929-2001 was about peak prosperity under 1' Pisces, while the current 72 year period from 2001-2073 is one of austerity and reduction in benefits, incomes, standard of living, quality of life and overall wealth under the malefic 30' Aquarius. I feel 29' Aquarius in 2073 is a lucky degree and about a more egalitarian world to last until 2145 when it reaches 28' Aquarius. The previous 2 age-degrees of 1775/85-1847/57 was about revolution and the birth of capitalism in the USA under 3' Pisces and 1847/57-1919/29 dedicated to socialist and progressive values of income redistribution. And Pisces is about prosperity and elites, Aquarius is focused on providing equality to the masses and we all live in a utilitarian-based society.
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  #48  
Unread 07-01-2019, 07:27 AM
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About the age-degree generations: The last 72 year period of 1929-2001 was about peak prosperity under 1' Pisces, while the current 72 year period from 2001-2073 is one of austerity and reduction in benefits, incomes, standard of living, quality of life and overall wealth under the malefic 30' Aquarius. I feel 29' Aquarius in 2073 is a lucky degree and about a more egalitarian world to last until 2145 when it reaches 28' Aquarius. The previous 2 age-degrees of 1775-1847 was about revolution and the birth of capitalism in the USA under 3' Pisces and 1847-1929 dedicated to socialist and progressive values of income redistribution. And Pisces is about prosperity and elites, Aquarius is focused on providing equality to the masses and we all live in a utilitarian-based society.
Just to clarify (not criticizing) you're using a 0 ayanamsa (one full Sign difference between tropical and sidereal, so that tropical Aries is in the same place as sidereal Pisces, tropical Taurus is coincidental with sidereal Aries, etc). And, these are the SIDEREAL Ages, using the First Point of Spring as the Age-indicator, which transits a sidereal zodiac at about 72 years per degree with Retrograde-motion (so that the sidereal Aquarian Age follows the sidereal Piscean Age). With this ayanamsa, the sidereal Age of Pisces began in 150 B.C.E., your chosen date for when the tropical and sidereal zodiacs were in perfect alignment.

Conversely (to avoid confusion), the Age-degree generations I'm talking about for mundane influence on our Charts are TROPICAL, with 58 years per generation and Direct-motion (so that the tropical Aquarian Age follows the tropical Capricornian Age, which is approaching 28 degrees Capricorn).

I believe that both types of Ages, tropical AND sidereal, are major, concurrent influences, with the tropical having mainly a mundane effect, and the sidereal having mainly a spiritual effect.

For further clarification, the sidereal Ages are subject to differing, chosen ayanamsas, so not all would agree that the First Point of Spring reached sidereal Aquarius in 2001. There are many start-dates suggested for that, which is confusing in and of itself! Some chosen, sidereal Aquarian Age start-dates are much earlier, some are much later. It's a matter of opinion.

Last edited by david starling; 07-01-2019 at 07:32 AM.
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  #49  
Unread 07-01-2019, 07:35 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

For the tropical Ages, which are a major influence on a tropical Chart, Saturn is the current "Age-lord", and has been so since the 4th Century A.D.
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Unread 07-01-2019, 05:12 PM
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Re: Saturn as a Cosmic Teacher

2160 AD is expected to be the actual start of the Aquarian age, so the 72-year periods are 2088-2160, 2016-88 and earlier, 1944-2016. I was told 1991, not 2001 had more to do with the Aquarian age by some astrological research. Either the starting point of the Piscean age was 150 BC or 1 AD-the theorized year Jesus Christ was born.
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