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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #51  
Unread 11-16-2012, 09:04 PM
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NancyS NancyS is offline
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Hello, may I ask how northerly/southerly you are positioned in the world? The vast majority of equal house users that I know of are in northern Europe, especially the UK. Also, is it popular where you live?

Thanks
Hi Byjove,

I live in the tropics (Hawaii), so the houses here are pretty even no matter how you slice em. I way born considerably north of here in the summer, so my MC would be early in the 9th house in an Equal system.

Not sure what's popular here in the low latitudes. Also I'm not quite sure what to make of all of this, all I know is "up" is "up"; and the confusion multiplies when one thinks about declinations, etc.

~Nancy

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  #52  
Unread 11-17-2012, 01:14 AM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Let's see....
In my own example
You would have trouble distinguishing between

1. Cancer Asc--Moon 4th--sign of Moon-- aspects of Moon
2. Gemini Asc --Mercury 8th--sign of Mercury--aspects of Mercury

"insufficient data"?
You do seem ostensibly more Geminian than Cancerian. And the 8th certainly would link to a strong intellectual interest in occult science.

Nothing about your surface as it presents itself here suggests Moon in the 4th as an ascendant ruler, though it wouldn't really, would it, to be fair.

Quote:
Error in recording birth time is a constant in astrology and has no bearing here; it applies equally to all charts, systems.
I'm glad you agree, it is always relevant.

Quote:
Not only do we have to assay the differences between zodiacs, we have to also distinguish house positions between systems, account for aspectual modifications of planetary expression, account for potential birth errors, and think about temporal expressions of various pieces of the chart as they come to the fore within a person's life.

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Whoever originally said that certainly must be a handsome young man
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  #53  
Unread 11-17-2012, 04:03 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Gosh. I hadn't thought of it that way. You win, I lose, game over.
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  #54  
Unread 04-12-2015, 09:23 PM
Rian Rian is offline
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

I've looked at a few variations of mine and my gf's charts, placidus, equal houses, whole signs, and sidereal, and have been to the renowned professional astrologer Charlotte Benson. She's the one who first introduced me to Vedic astrology. It's sidereal, and I think uses equal houses. It really opened me up to a whole new realm of astrology, namely because it shifts everything over almost one sign from the placidus method. But it makes perfect sense, because the placidus system bases their houses off of imaginary boundaries, but the sidereal method bases them off of real interstellar bodies. But more importantly than that, is that the new chart, makes even more sense to me. I can relate to the new sign positions so much better now, it's incredible. Not even that, but my girlfriends chart makes so much more sense now as well. The one downside to using vedic astrology though was that the chart was square, and did not show any aspects, so we'd have to reference a natal wheel chart constantly.

But, something else was off. I could relate to the placidus system's house placements better. I figured there was also something off about using whole sign, or equal houses. I never liked the idea. It just seemed like cutting corners to me. Houses would get moved around, and planets rearranged, just for some extra simplicity. I want them to be where they're supposed to be, even if a sign overlaps a house or two.

I valiantly made all of the rough calculations in my head, until one day, I discovered astro.com's free chart calculator. This can get very customizable. It allows you to create the popular natal wheel chart (which shows the detailed aspects), while using sidereal calculations (which shows more accurate sign placement), with the placidus house placements (which shows more accurate house placement).

In my opinion, this is the most accurate chart I have ever stumbled upon, and I hope it helps all of you too.

Last edited by Rian; 04-12-2015 at 10:08 PM.
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  #55  
Unread 04-13-2015, 01:40 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

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Originally Posted by Rian View Post
But it makes perfect sense, because the placidus system bases their houses off of imaginary boundaries, but the sidereal method bases them off of real interstellar bodies.
Almost the reverse Rian - sidereal astrology is based on constellations - which are just a man made arrangement of stars that was set up centuries ago. Chinese astrologers arrange the same stars in quite different constellations.

Tropical astrology is derived from the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. When the Sun (from the point of view of the Earth) is at 00N00 declination on the equator, this point is 0 Aries, when it is at 23N26 declination, this point is 0 Cancer, when it is back on the Equator at 00S00 declination, this point is 0 Libra and when it is at 23S26 declination, this point is 0 Capricorn. The other signs are calculated accordingly.

So tropical astrology is derived from clear mathematical calculations of the Earth's orbit and I think probably maps the Earth's energy field.

You might be interested in Dieter Koch's article on this subject: http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_vedic2_e.htm

Quote:
I valiantly made all of the rough calculations in my head, until one day, I discovered astro.com's free chart calculator. This can get very customizable. It allows you to create the popular natal wheel chart (which shows the detailed aspects), while using sidereal calculations (which shows more accurate sign placement), with the placidus house placements (which shows more accurate house placement).
The system you have discovered by yourself is a system presented by the great Indian astrologer Krishnamurti Paddhati and is called the "KP" system, you might be interested in googling it and seeing what you think.

Alice

Last edited by Alice McDermott; 04-13-2015 at 01:48 AM.
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  #56  
Unread 04-13-2015, 04:43 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post

Almost the reverse Rian
- sidereal astrology is based on constellations -
which are just a man made arrangement of stars that was set up centuries ago.
Chinese astrologers arrange the same stars in quite different constellations

QUOTE


'..man did not see pictures in the night skies
and then circumscribe the constellations
according to artistic vision.
Instead
man noted that people born when certain groupings of stars were rising
or setting
or directly overhead
exhibited certain characteristics in common


These characteristics seemed animalistic,
bird like,
aquatic
heroic
or ultra humanistic.

Once this correlation was made,
the symbolic mind of man
assigned SHAPE to groupings of stars
for easy reference.

Some shapes were earthly, human

some creative fantasies

but each shape or constellation
represented symbolically
THE OBSERVED EFFECTS OF THAT GROUP OF STARS
when manifested in the life of a person...' Robert Huntz Granite

Because of a "wobble" of the Earth's axis of rotation, the position of the celestial poles changes slowly with time - which is a phenomenon known as precession. The constellation-free zone is not centered exactly on the south celestial pole, instead the uncharted area is centered on the place in the sky where the south celestial pole would have been around the year 2000 B.C. This date matches the time of the Babylonians and Sumerians. So it seems likely that the Greek constellations originated with the Sumerians and Babylonians. From there, knowledge of the constellations somehow made its way to Egypt - perhaps through the Minoans on Crete who had contact with the Babylonians and settled in Egypt after an explosive volcanic eruption destroyed their civilization, and from there early Greek scholars first heard about the constellations and wrote about them.

The earliest known efforts to catalogue the stars date to cuneiform texts (i.e. Sumerian/Babylonian/Assyrian texts and artefacts)and artefacts dating back roughly 6000 years. These remnants, found in the valley of the Euphrates River, suggest that the ancients observing the heavens saw the lion, the bull, and the scorpion in the stars.

here's a link to an interesting British Museum web page regarding the origins of writing in Mesopotamia
http://www.mesopotamia.co.uk/writing/story/sto_set.html



Proof the Babylonian Zodiac was the original astrological zodiac was established 14 May 1949 when the mysterious origins of traditional exaltation degrees of planets in the zodiac (hypsomata) was solved. The figures proved to be sidereal longitudes of planets at their heliacal risings and settings for lunar year 786 BC, the mean value of the ayanamsa being 14.5 degrees. This reduced to the epoch -100 (101BC), equated to 4.6 degrees, thereby agreeing with what was determined from Babylonian and Egyptian records. The fact the ayanamsa for the hypsomata agreed with that from these ancient records set the seal of authenticity on its discovery.

PRIMER OF SIDEREAL ASTROLOGY by Cyril Fagan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post

Tropical astrology is derived from the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. When the Sun (from the point of view of the Earth) is at 00N00 declination on the equator, this point is 0 Aries, when it is at 23N26 declination, this point is 0 Cancer, when it is back on the Equator at 00S00 declination, this point is 0 Libra and when it is at 23S26 declination, this point is 0 Capricorn. The other signs are calculated accordingly.

So tropical astrology is derived from clear mathematical calculations of the Earth's orbit and I think probably maps the Earth's energy field.

You might be interested in Dieter Koch's article on this subject: http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_vedic2_e.htm


Alice
Both
SIDEREAL astrology
and
TROPICAL astrology
measure the orbit of Earth around the Sun

~ each simply uses an alternative method of measurement

i.e.
video illustrates EARTHS MOTION AROUND THE SUN ~ NOT AS SIMPLE AS MANY THINK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-...eature=related

Hipparchus, when compiling his star catalogue
plotted the positions of the fixed stars from the equinoctial and solstitial points for the year 139BC, approximately
and Posidonius improved on this idea by making the zodiac as a whole commence with the vernal point fixed in 0 Aries.
This was the birth of the modern version of the Tropical zodiac.
Before Hipparchus's time it had no existence,
and it was entirely a Greek innovation
based on
Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.) which "...divides the solar year into twelve equal months
commencing with the vernal equinox
in which each solar (tropical) month
is named after one of each of the twelve signs..." Dr. Robert Powell HISTORY OF THE ZODIAC
http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Zodi.../dp/1597311529
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  #57  
Unread 04-16-2015, 12:51 AM
nbennett nbennett is offline
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

I have long been an advocate of the equal house system. In the last 20 years there has been a trend back to Whole Sign houses per the Greeks. Just remember that when they had trouble measuring the degree on the Asc and when most people did not know their birth time, Whole Sign was used as a good enough estimate. With better measuring instruments like the astrolabe, the degree on the Asc was possible. Just consider that the Eq Hses are a refinement to Whole Sign. Another point, even if one uses Whole Sign, is that aspects are always measured from the Asc, which is a default form of Whole Sign. Also remember that the cusp is the apex or center of the house, not the beginning. Most of this is analyzed in my book on Amazon, Foundations of Astrology.
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