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  #26  
Unread 11-03-2007, 04:13 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by anca
With Venus opp Saturn I'm 'afflicted' not only by Wayne's definition but also de facto. Bad relationships, much struggle, pain...the whole nine yards...but at the end no regrets. So, why not view everything in the light of 'feel good astrology'?
We use to say that we build relationships, same as a building, start with a nice thought, passion, plan, you put time and love and hopes and at one point the building doesn't stand any test and there is a very strong urge (maybe Saturn at work) to demolish everything down to the last brick. I suspect that Pluto is also involved with the demolition job and cleaning up debris and if you have the strength to go through the whole process at the end you realize that Saturn actually helped to end a relationship which was not good (anymore).
You guys are all experts, but you'll allow me to bring my humble observation: Venus at odds with Saturn....not so good news, sooner or later, and what's meant to end let it end. Till then carpe diem.
But this is as far as my opposition goes, squares are softer and manageable and as somebody mentioned before, with a little help from a nice Moon, Jupiter you'll be on your way to the 50 years wedding aniversary.
I consider myself a student of astrology, nothing more. At the risk of repitition, I will quote C E O Carter once again, who was president emeritus of the British Astrological Association and who, after studying for 50 years claimed in a speech at the Theosophical Society in London that he had, "... barely skimmed the surface of astrology". Such humility in one so august an authority begs restraint on the part of someone like me.

Many on this thread have this difficult aspect and most have acknowledged the truth that is inherent in the aspect. I feel for those who have the square or opposition - it is a difficult aspect indeed and affects not just the personal life but financial fortunes also, and, in the case of a weak natus, the character.

Someone pointed out that you cannot simply one aspect alone without considering the whole chart. This is true of all aspects and chart placements. I would not go so far as to say that Venus in Pisces square Saturn is quite as beneficial, in a general sense, as say Venus in Virgo trine Saturn, but there is a certain moderation to the ill effects of the aspect in such a case. Furthermore, there is nearly always great good elsewhere in the chart. A great friend of mine, a Cistercian monk had the square, and while he obviously had eschewed relationships such as marriage he was the kindest and most gentle man I have ever met.

Relationships can always be difficult, but especially when Venus or Moon are afflicted; that is the nature of relationships if only because another human being is involved, and we do not always behave consistently or even wisely.

I regret that some people have been troubled by what I have written. I did not intend to hurt anyone, I am concerned only with the truth, but again life is sometimes very difficult and as scientists we must be brave and face facts.

However, while we cannot determine our experiences, we can adapt to them.

  #27  
Unread 11-03-2007, 04:31 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne penner
Also, to reiterate this point because it is in my view important, if people are not willing to accept the truth, and sometimes the truth is extremely ugly, they should not study astrology.
Wayne, I don't disagree with you as much as you may think.

One possible difference in philosophy between us:

I prefer to study charts of people I know very well. Speculating about what goes on in the lives of famous people is a risky business, since so few people really know them (in spite of endless gossip). I have already mentioned the Venus/Saturn conjunction in my own chart. Let me mention why I say I feel the chart must be looked at completely.

a) Although this aspect is applying, which is stronger, it has an orb of a bit over 5 degrees. The lack of a tight orb keeps Saturn from overwhelming Venus terribly strongly. Remember, in another thread you brought up the subject of orbs. So orbs are critical.

b) The conjunction is in the 12th house. This actually is more difficult. I feel justified in saying this because I am talking about my own chart and my own life.

c) The conjunction is in different signs. Saturn is in Virgo, but Venus is in Leo.

d) I have supporting aspects too. Venus is trine Jupiter and sextile Uranus. Saturn is also sextile Uranus and sextile Mercury.

Now, supposing the Venus/Saturn conjunction had been in the same sign and within one degree? And then suppose I had several squares or oppositions of those two planets to other planets. Surely that would change your analysis, right?

My father, by the way, had Venus square Saturn, only about 3 degrees orb though separating. The only negative quality that I can see that relates to this aspect is that he was a rather shy man. It is true that he was often lacking in confidence, and he often appeared unable to show open affection. It is suprising how often aspects are passed on from one family member to another, though sometimes with a slightly different twist. He had the square. I have the conjunction. I observed his distance and copied it early in life.
Quote:
So I take no concern regarding newcomers to astrology.
I'm assuming you mean here in this forum, not in regard to helping people who are learning, somewhat new at astrology, but eager and honest about wanting to learn. We all started as newcomers.
Quote:
It is an extremely deep and serious study, and we all have to face some of the less pleasant features of our charts, although I do believe astrology helps us understand why things happen, even if we are not able to mitigate our circumstances.
I feel that knowing "why" we are the way we are often gives us keys as to how to change. Of course we can't change everything about ourselves. Of course no amount of study is going to solve all problems, but I do think that deep study of the weaknesses in our charts gives us the power (because knowledge is power) to at least lessen the weaknesses, and I futhermore believe that in some instances we actually take a weakness and turn it into a strength.

That's what evolution is all about it. Without evolution/growth, what is the purpose of being here? Then all is predestined, we are doomed to be forever what our charts predict, and that is something I don't agree with.

Gaer
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  #28  
Unread 11-03-2007, 05:00 AM
ramchandani20002 ramchandani20002 is offline
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Re: Venus and Saturn

vedic astrology teaches that sat has a special aspect on tenth house. in your case this is true. this is more hurting than when venus is in fourth from sat although it is square aspect.
ramchandani
  #29  
Unread 11-03-2007, 05:15 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Venus Saturn indicates an attachment style. The potential for either constructive - realistic relationship styles or separative relation styles gets worked out in the nurturing aspects of child development. There are so many variables of venus and saturn, including older women, a nurturing grandma in ones life, business woman, belated relationships, committed relationships and so on.

For the Astrologer dealing with someone with this aspect they might consider that relational issues in regard to connecting with others may be apparent. The answer in carrying out helpful guidance and such will involve the astrologer to give kind permissions towards the way a client 'does' have relationships and to also foster a good working relationship with the client in the time they have together. It makes sense if that if Astrology is to be helpful to others that Astrologers take responsibility for what they understand in the chart to be sensitive and potentially threatening for someone.

It took me years to establish better methods of info delivery so that others could access the good information rather than shy away from that.

Unfortunately the internet doesn't seem to allow for complete safety with regard to how any one person may digest raw information in forums like these. I think its realistic to say that we cannot rescue the sensitive types from the jaws of blunt cook book style interpretations but accept that all seems to rule on the internet whether we like that or not.

kingsley

Last edited by Kingsley; 11-03-2007 at 05:18 AM.
  #30  
Unread 11-03-2007, 05:39 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaer
Wayne, I don't disagree with you as much as you may think.

One possible difference in philosophy between us:

I prefer to study charts of people I know very well. Speculating about what goes on in the lives of famous people is a risky business, since so few people really know them (in spite of endless gossip). I have already mentioned the Venus/Saturn conjunction in my own chart. Let me mention why I say I feel the chart must be looked at completely.

a) Although this aspect is applying, which is stronger, it has an orb of a bit over 5 degrees. The lack of a tight orb keeps Saturn from overwhelming Venus terribly strongly. Remember, in another thread you brought up the subject of orbs. So orbs are critical.

b) The conjunction is in the 12th house. This actually is more difficult. I feel justified in saying this because I am talking about my own chart and my own life.

c) The conjunction is in different signs. Saturn is in Virgo, but Venus is in Leo.

d) I have supporting aspects too. Venus is trine Jupiter and sextile Uranus. Saturn is also sextile Uranus and sextile Mercury.

Now, supposing the Venus/Saturn conjunction had been in the same sign and within one degree? And then suppose I had several squares or oppositions of those two planets to other planets. Surely that would change your analysis, right?

My father, by the way, had Venus square Saturn, only about 3 degrees orb though separating. The only negative quality that I can see that relates to this aspect is that he was a rather shy man. It is true that he was often lacking in confidence, and he often appeared unable to show open affection. It is suprising how often aspects are passed on from one family member to another, though sometimes with a slightly different twist. He had the square. I have the conjunction. I observed his distance and copied it early in life.

I'm assuming you mean here in this forum, not in regard to helping people who are learning, somewhat new at astrology, but eager and honest about wanting to learn. We all started as newcomers.

I feel that knowing "why" we are the way we are often gives us keys as to how to change. Of course we can't change everything about ourselves. Of course no amount of study is going to solve all problems, but I do think that deep study of the weaknesses in our charts gives us the power (because knowledge is power) to at least lessen the weaknesses, and I futhermore believe that in some instances we actually take a weakness and turn it into a strength.

That's what evolution is all about it. Without evolution/growth, what is the purpose of being here? Then all is predestined, we are doomed to be forever what our charts predict, and that is something I don't agree with.

Gaer
Gaer, a couple of points relating to your post.

First, I do in fact believe we are fated to experience what "the stars" fortell in our charts, although to qualify this we also have the ability to decide how we will respond to those experiences in my opinion. Two people with a similar experience can respond quite differently, and that is where we have choice, and so in this sense we are fated but we do not have to respond as fated.
At some level we must accept that life is not always kind nor is it always just, but how we deal with our experience is our decision alone.

To some degree the evolution of the soul, whether this is easily determined or not, and I use the term loosely as I do not have confidence in the concept of the soul, is shown in the chart.

Certainly the esotericists would insist this is the case, although they sometimes bring in exotic considerations such as the "invisible planets" of Colonel Olcott, one of the founders of what was to eventually become the British Labor Party, who was I think insane but considered an astrological authority in the early 1900's. Of course in those days Blavatsky and Annie Besant going on about all sorts of things and linking them to their idea of astrology, even though I think they "lost the plot", to use an Australian term, when they elicited astrologyto support some very strange ideas. I would love to have met either of them I should add.

In part I try to get back to the fundamentals of astrology, as espoused by Alan Leo and then C E O Carter, and later Margaret Hone and Jeff Mayo, who may not be as well-known in America as they are in England.

Regarding your own situation, well Venus is happy in Leo and Saturn undoubtedly strong in Virgo. Saturn in the 12th is not so well-placed.

So while I discuss this one aspect, I do not believe we can take simply one aspect and somehow abstract it from the chart as a whole, and you will note I never said I did, but for practical reasons however we are forced to do so.

On "celebrity" charts I think you can make some reasonable observations in many cases, even though we may be unable to truly test their validity as we can in our own charts. For example, there have been hundreds of biographies of Hitler, and his chart does well reflect his life as documented. Similarly with other major world figures.

Last, I would not discuss troublesome matters with those who may be worried and concerned to begin with, although this appears to be a serious forum for serious people, and anyone who is going to frequent this forum should be prepard for blunt and explicit truths I would think. If people cannot deal with the truth perhaps they should consider a different study than astrology.

Last edited by wayne penner; 11-03-2007 at 07:45 AM.
  #31  
Unread 11-03-2007, 05:48 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

On Venus in Capricorn this is not by any means a difficult position. It is reticent, reserved, sometimes a bit stand-offish, always careful and frugal. Certainly Saturn is delighted in Libra.

I think Venus is probably weakest in Scorpio in that there are sexual overtones always even to friendships. It is undoubtedly delighted in Pisces and seems to like Cancer as well, but perhaps that is a US thing.

Venus probably benefits most from nice aspects to the Moon or Jupiter and is least happy with Saturn or Uranus in any aspect, which strain it somewhat, and Venus does not react well to any form of stress.
  #32  
Unread 11-03-2007, 06:34 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne penner
On Venus in Capricorn this is not by any means a difficult position. It is reticent, reserved, sometimes a bit stand-offish, always careful and frugal. Certainly Saturn is delighted in Libra.

I think Venus is probably weakest in Scorpio in that there are sexual overtones always even to friendships. It is undoubtedly delighted in Pisces and seems to like Cancer as well, but perhaps that is a US thing.

Venus probably benefits most from nice aspects to the Moon or Jupiter and is least happy with Saturn or Uranus in any aspect, which strain it somewhat, and Venus does not react well to any form of stress.
Thanks wayne. My Venus in Capricorn is trine Mars and Jupiter so I guess I have a combination of reserve and outgoingness

I am curious though - why doesn't Venus in Capricorn share the same problems as Venus conjunct Saturn? Sorry if this is a stupid question.
  #33  
Unread 11-03-2007, 07:37 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoi
Thanks wayne. My Venus in Capricorn is trine Mars and Jupiter so I guess I have a combination of reserve and outgoingness

I am curious though - why doesn't Venus in Capricorn share the same problems as Venus conjunct Saturn? Sorry if this is a stupid question.
I wouldn't think that's a stupid question at all.

My own experience has been that planetary placement by sign colors the planet's general behavior, which becomes specific by aspect and then more specific by house.

The nature of the aspect is what is important I think, and squares and oppositions link planets unhappily as both aspects shock the planets into action, often in an unexpected and jagged manner, the square especially, while trines and sextiles tend to encourage more measured and smoother expression of the planets involved.

Some bodies are naturally antagonistic and even violent in action in any aspect. Mars or Sun in aspect to Uranus, or Moon and Mars are critical aspects, while others, for example Mercury and Saturn, are favorable in outcome even in square because the two have so much in common, while Mercury and Jupiter even in trine and definitely by conjunction can have unfortunate outcomes in life due to unwarrented optimism and an unreasonable relience on others - Mercury and Jupiter have nothing in common. I should add that all aspects, even the most difficult, seem have some potentially positive "side-effects", once again depending on the general tenor of the chart.

You could write a book on the aspects alone, and it is not always easy to judge exactly how the effects will play out.

But Venus is not afflicted by Capricorn, although arguably it is not the happiest placement for Venus. Venus expresses it's true nature through gentler signs such as Libra or Cancer.

To complicate matter further I think you have to consider the overall disposition of the person. For example, Gandhi had a technically seriously afflicted Venus in Scorpio. As a young man he was wild to the point of of being reprobate, but later in life he channeled the Venus Scorpio energy through self-control and meditation (although he had a nice sextile between Sun and Saturn which certainly helped in this regard). Hitler also had a terribly afflicted Venus, although in its own sign and house, but it should be remembered that he was extremely popular with women and by all accounts enjoyed an enduring relationship with Eva Braun, who had the Venus Saturn trine.
  #34  
Unread 11-03-2007, 10:03 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

"Last, I would not discuss troublesome matters with those who may be worried and concerned to begin with, although this appears to be a serious forum for serious people, and anyone who is going to frequent this forum should be prepard for blunt and explicit truths I would think. If people cannot deal with the truth perhaps they should consider a different study than astrology."

There are truths on this side of the Pyranees, which are falsehoods on the other. -- Pascal

The problem is that "the truth" is not handed by some general ideas regarding an aspect. "Blunt and explicit" may turn out as simply "wrong", particularly if we keep repeating what the "authorities" say about the aspect and ignore how people live it day-to-day. Sometimes things are not so ugly or obvious as they might appear. And sometimes, unfortunately, they are.....

I respect and have studied some authors, but the "truth" about this aspect is handed to me directly, 24-7, because of its presence in my chart. So, I am the ultimate authority in my case.

I do believe there is a share of fate we have to face, part of it unavoidable, but some people might become self-fulfilling prophecies if they focus on all the negativity said about the difficult aspects ("oh, I will never meet anyone"; "oh, I will always be poor"). It is a bad posture, specially to young people who are beggining their studies. Nearly every chart has difficult aspects and every student can become paranoid if they get caught in this spiral......

Being overly pessimistic misleads as much as "feel-good astrology". After all, no one has ever managed to present the specific proportions of fate vs. free will in the life of a person, so, feel-good astrology is a make-believe that pretends one can overcome everything in a chart, and feel-bad astrology is the astrology of passivity.

I certainly don't deny the difficuties presented by the aspect and other ones as well, but when I started studying, I read a huge amount of pessimistic-generalistic interpretations. According to the books, I would be betrayed, lonely, would be poor, would go to jail, suffer an accident in which I could die or become paralyzed or mutilated (ok, that could still be on my way, so I better lock myself in my house, never get into a bus, car or plane, or ride a bike or use a knife.......), would present mental illness (some people would agree on this one), etc. The good aspects were also very far from reality and so-called truth: I would marry a rich man (where did all that poverty go all of a sudden?), maybe a politician ( is this good?), would be living in a huge house with fine objects and art, would be a scientist (not even close), etc....... So, following them books blindly and repeating them concerning other people's charts would prove as useless to them as it was to me.

The whole thing made a lot more sense after i went to see a professional and sensible astrologer. That's when astrology revealed itself to me. And it wasn't a bed-of-roses reading. But it was accurate.

But I don't want to discourage anyone's beliefs. I will let you know if any tragedy happens in my life.
  #35  
Unread 11-03-2007, 10:58 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Good Philosophical dialog.

If everything is predestined then what is the sense of using an astrologer anyway?

If Astrology can predict exact events then we all must be seers. Only those that can see visions and have other talents can predict things with absolute certainty whereas astrology gives us a choice of weather we do this or that based on the stars.There are traits that can show up that are inherent in the person that will show up also.

While I agree that there are things that we are predestined to do and become there are forks in the road of life where choice is given ,That I think is where Karma and Dharma occur for better or worst as to the persons choices.
I wish I had more time ,but I have to go!
  #36  
Unread 11-03-2007, 11:23 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

All good points to raise. I do hesitate to say though, that there are many things a counsellor identifies in personality that are the same and different compared to the astrologer. As someone sugested the best person to understand ones chart is indeed themself.

kingsley
  #37  
Unread 11-03-2007, 01:12 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

I have had two partners who both had the Venus/Saturn aspect one had Venus in Aries in opposition to Saturn in Libra. My current partner has Venus in Libra square Saturn in Cancer. I have a minor aspect, I have Venus in Capricorn semi-square Saturn in Virgo on my Asc. The low self worth is present in both of them, they find it difficult to see what is lovable about themselves. Whatever Saturn touches in the chart does take a longer time to grow and develop and for Venus/Saturn sometimes love comes later on in life, it doesn't have to mean death of a partner it can mean a seperation but who hasn't suffered one broken relationship at least.

With Venus/Saturn, it depends on your experiences from a young age, on how the aspect will manifest obviously if you grew up in a very unloving background, by having Venus in aspect to Saturn you will feel very unloved, as their is an expectation from birth that you will be rejected or unwanted. Another child with the same aspect can grow up in a more stable background, who will still have feelings of low self worth but it is not compounded by a completely cold childhood. Aspects are dimensional, and depending on the chart as a whole the experience of this aspect can be felt at different levels. A Water chart person who needs close bonds, and emotional relationships will have more of a difficult time with this aspect, but maybe it helps to ground the emotions and therefore a more cautious, careful, and mature response to love is helpful to a person whose emotions could overwhelm them too much, only the owner of the aspect can describe it from their own experience. As has been said the whole chart needs to be examined, some charts support Venus/Saturn aspects better than others.

With my ex partner his Venus was in detriment in Aries and too many frustrations and feelings of inadequacy were hitting all his Aries planets, he was violent, cruel and lacked feeling. My current partner has the same aspect but is very dutiful in love, works hard for the family, takes his responsibilities seriously and always works hard at the relationship. He has felt isolated in the past and said he thought he would never find love, didn't think he deserved it, or could even be loved. I have found Venus/Saturn's hard to get to know at the beginning because they are hiding behind defences, it can be like a brick wall at times. But underneath it all he is very kind and considerate.

Here is Liz Greene's interpretation of the aspect, although I might have posted this before. Here is again anyway.


Quote:
~ Saturn in aspect to Venus ~


" A New Look At An Old Devil " .. by Liz Greene

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Saturnian contacts to Venus, when they occur in the charts of those who are not predisposed towards introspection or self-understanding, are some of the most painful contacts to deal with. This is particularly true for the charts of women. In both men's and women's charts one of the traditional interpretations , which seems to be accurate enough, is that of failure or sorrow in marriage and in love with a subsequent residue of disillusionment, bitterness, fear, and a great sensitivity to rejection which colours all successive romantic encounters with a certain aloofness and mistrust.


It is probable that the initial failure - and there is generally one very painful one - is not the only key to the patterns of behaviour which are so typical of Venus-Saturn but that an additional and more important key may be found in childhood, in the individuals relationship to his parents and particularly to the parent of the opposite sex. This is not a new concept but has been suggested before in reference to Venus-Saturn configurations. Saturn's associations with parents bring this element into all Saturnian contacts with the personal planets.


Venus seems to have importance in relation to one's capacity to be happy in the conventional sense, to be at peace or in harmony with oneself and with the environment. More than any other aspect Venus-Saturn appears to strike at a persons happiness, and the usual feeling with the aspect, even if its more drastic forms are not expressed, is a nagging discontent and the feeling that one will never be able to be happy or take pleasure in life. This contact, even the "harmonious" aspects of trine or sextile, strikes also at a woman's basic attitude towards her own femininity and her worth as a woman and affects a man's basic attitude towards women.


Although it may be argued by the more esoterically inclined that personal relationships are of minor importance on the spiritual path, nevertheless loneliness and rejection, in the case of people with Venus-Saturn contacts, can ruin the entire life, and the importance of relationships as they are symbolised by the descendant of the chart is not to be underestimated. This is one of the cardinal points of the birth chart and of the individuals life. While the setting for Sun-Saturn contacts is a broader and more abstract stage, where the issue of one's significance to oneself and one's role in life are at stake, the setting for Venus-Saturn contacts is the sphere of intimate relationships, and it is often in the private recesses of the bedroom that the final effects of these aspects take their toll.


In fine balance to the great unhappiness and isolation which often accompany Venus-Saturn aspects, there is also as great potential for a deep and meaningful and permanent relationship based on complete understanding and on free choice rather than mutual need. The mysteries of union are within the grasp of the person with this contact for although he stands to lose much - and usually must spend a good portion of his life without a companion or without true companionship - he also holds the key to a relationship which is lasting and real.


Libra is the sign of Saturn's exaltation, and Venus-Saturn contacts are similar and perhaps even more clear in their inference that relationships are the path to self-knowledge and self-development.


The connection of Venus-Saturn to sexual inhibitions, particularly the varying degrees of sexual defensiveness which we term fridgity, is rarely mentioned since "sorrow in love" is somehow expected to imply this often sorrowful area of experience as well. But Venus-Saturn contacts cannot be consciously utilised in a constructive way unless an effort is made at honesty with oneself. As with all Saturnian aspects we must consider the workings of the unconscious with its tendency to hold compensatory or opposite attitudes and feelings in relation to the conscious personality and efforts of the individual. Regardless of how badly the person with Venus-Saturn wants to express sexuality and emotionally, there is usually an equally intense unconscious fear which makes defense neccessary at all costs.


Venus -Saturn combinations imply a certain amount of emotional pain and rejection in the early home life. This may be of an obvious kind, such as the home where nobody touches each other or expresses any overt display of affection or warmth. It may also be of a more subtle kind, where much material display is offered, many gifts given, and a great effort made to provide the physical comforts but where there is no real recognition of or love of the child in a straightforward way. It is common with these aspects to find parents who love their child because he is their child but do not actually like the child when it comes to a real appreciation of his individuality. This kind of "love" is very frequent in connection with Venus-Saturn contacts. It is particularily common among parents who have children because it is the accepted thing to do but who do not themselves, unconsciously, want the responsibility.


There are many similar and equally complex patterns which may be found with Venus-Saturn, but they generally involve a lack of real love in the home from one or both parents. Their child is usually better off away from his parents as soon as he is old enough to stand alone, regardless of how much guilt and havoc this may create in the home. The longer he remains in the family fold, the greater his sense of inadequacy will be in later life.


The capacity for expression and receipt of affection symbolised by Venus, is often cramped and twisted because there is so little genuine affection in childhood; and the individual often finds that he cannot untwist himself later in male-female relationships because he has grown so accustomed to his defenses. There is usually a deep and almost compulsive need to be loved which accompanies Venus-Saturn contacts along with the characteristic Saturnian coolness and defensiveness. It may be said of people with this contact that there is often a feeling of being unloved, and in consequence they find it difficult to express love themselves - except in that slightly demanding, sometimes possessive, discontented yet painfully sensitive and vulnerable manner which is more often seen in children of about three or four years of age.


In some fashion the affectional nature has been frozen and remains in a childlike and awkward state while the rest of the temperament, including the defense mechanism, grows up around it. There is often much sophistication in people with Venus-Saturn contacts because their search for happiness may take them into some strange by-ways in pursuit of a love which does not bring pain. But the emotional nature in this area remains essentially that of a child.


We have all encountered those children who because of their fear of being unwanted can only express their need for affection through destructive actions, or an attempt to inflict pain, or sulking and weeping; if we transfer this rather extreme picture to the adult body and mind of the Venus-Saturn individual, and include the skill at portraying surface coolness which he has usually developed, we will hold the key to his peculiar and often misunderstood emotional nature. Of course not all people with Venus-Saturn contacts behave in this fashion. But there is a touch of this quality present although it may be beautifully masked or outweighed by more self-expressive factors. It is particularly rare to find men who express the real vulnerability of the contact since it is far less acceptable in our society for a man to admit that he is afraid of being unloved. So he will very likely affect the traditional Venus-Saturn exterior: coldness which can extend to heartlessness, callousness to the emotional hurts of others, a suspicious and jealous nature which expects, constantly and in spite of reassurance, to be eventually betrayed, and yet a very deep and unshakable loyalty to someone who may be abusive, dependant, or the least deserving of objects.


If we remember that these are people whose emotional growth, in the realm of relationships, has been stunted in childhood, it should be possible to see past the reputation this aspect holds for being incapable of love and understand that what we are pleased to call love is often the expression of need and of sentiment and that this expression, to be convincing, must be observed and experienced in childhood. The Venus-Saturn individual is often awkward when confronted with the world of sentiment; it makes him acutely uncomfortable because he is not used to it. For him love is often linked with sacrifice, and he will either avoid it entirely or make of himself - or his partner - the sacrifice which he believes is required.


In a woman's horoscope Venus, besides being the symbol of the affectional nature, is also symbolic of femininity itself - not the maternal aspects of femininity, which is the province of the Moon, but the ideal companion who expresses beauty, harmony, grace, and charm. Venus is the archetype of the hetaira or courtesan rather than the mother, and these two faces - Venus and the Moon - together symbolise the female principle on a personal level. Venus-Saturn contacts usually affect a woman's confidence in herself as a woman - not only by society's definition of womanhood but by her own inner definition as well. It is usual to find Venus-Saturn women in the competitive world of business, and this type of woman often excels in her profession. She may be driven to achievement not only because she has a genuine love of work, responsibility, and creative self-expression but also because she may feel that she cannot properly function in any feminine capacity. Only the masculine world is left to her then.


Venus-Saturn contacts in their unconscious form do not appear to be analogous to the truly liberated woman who has found her own centre; they appear to be more concurrent with the woman who is frightened of being a woman because she thinks she will fail at it. These two creatures are often apparently similar, but the typical Venus-Saturn woman carries deep feelings of inferiority and unattractiveness - regardless of how physically appealing she may be. It is also common to find Venus-Saturn women in the performing arts, as models, and even as the modern equivalent of the hetaira, with perhaps less glamour. For these woman it is terribly important to be loved, admired, and thought beautiful. This is hardly liberation; it is closer to an enslavement to fear. It is no wonder that Venus-Saturn aspects have the reputation of making a woman unpopular with her own sex. As she despises and fears this sex within herself, she attracts resentment and fear from other woman.


The prostitute symbolises one extreme of Venus-Saturn, and this is perhaps the most difficult expression for a woman because of the loneliness of this way of life. The woman at the opposite end of the spectrum - the celibate 'spinster' - is not so opposite as she first seems to be, for both these woman have found a way to avoid the pain of a deep emotional involvement without having to admit to themselves that this is the basis of the behaviour pattern. To love in the sense that Saturn requires it to cost something, for this kind of love can entertain no illusions and cannot be based on the satisfaction of a personal need. Many people with Venus-Saturn aspects are afraid to pay the price, although opportunity is given them to develop this deeper side of the affectionate nature and to learn about the more meaningful aspects of relationships.


These two extremes also bear some resemblance to the more typical Venus-Saturn woman who plays the role of modern housewife; for she has sold her soul and her dreams in exchange for the security and safety of a house, an automobile, and the guarantee of maintenance payments if the marriage fails. She will often choose a partner not because she loves him, or because the relationship seems a valid one, but because he is safe and cannot hurt her or reach her more vulnerable feelings. No punishment is meted out by the angry gods to these women who have escaped from paying Saturn's dues. The endless frustration and isolation of a meaningless life is payment enough .


We may find Saturn over-compensating on occasion, and this kind of pattern is equally frustrating because it is just as isolating. It is common to find a person with Venus-Saturn following a pattern of relationships where the partner is a burden, emotionally or mentally or physically "inferior" in one way or another. Venus -Saturn women are often burdened with husbands or lovers whom they despise or who are in some fashion a source of unhappiness; yet they will not let go and will offer any one of a hundred excuses for maintaining the relationship with such men. Martyrdom of a self-imposed kind is a common Venus-Saturn manifestation; and the familiar cry, "I've given so much to him, and all he does is abuse me" must have first been given by a woman with Venus in aspect to Saturn.

It is in situations such as these that the deceptiveness of these contacts is evident for it is as difficult to see one's motives clearly with a psychological pattern of this kind as it is to see the bottom of a murky lake. It takes courage to tackle this aspect and make something constructive of it; but it can be so unpleasant in its manifestations that it often has the knack of bringing out a person's latent source of courage. Most important is the acceptance of responsibility for, as with all Saturnian contacts, the "sorrow in love" is not the cruel hand of blind fate at work but the natural response to an unconscious pattern.

It may seem that in the light of the psychological convolutions which generally accompany Venus-Saturn contacts, there is little positive to be said for them. But the rule seems generally to be, at least with Saturn, that his benefits are in direct proportion to the amount of pain he can engender. The individual with a Saturn-Venus aspect, particularly with the conjunction, square, or opposition, has his work cut out for him. This can unquestionably be a very distressing aspect, particularly to a person who is sensitive or romantic by nature. If he is willing to take an honest look at the motives within himself which have helped to create the patterns of disappointment which he experiences, he can learn a tremendous amount not only about himself but about the nature of love and the nature of relationships.

This knowledge, which eventually develops into wisdom, can help him establish a fully conscious and free relationship with a minimum of unconscious projection and a maximum of honesty. Only the person who has truly loved in freedom, from the heart and not from the solar plexus, can appreciate the nature of the gift offered by Saturn aspecting Venus. It is a question of first learning to love oneself.

The man with a Venus-Saturn contact may not have quite as difficult a time as his female counterpart, but with men these aspects often are symbolic of a general mistrust of women. There is often the fulfilment of the usual pattern of the "safe" partner, and a great deal is often made of something which is referred to as duty but which is closer to martyrdom. Sometimes there is great resentment or hostility towards women, with fear behind the resentment, and this kind of man will generally dislike a woman who expresses any degree of intelligence or individuality because he maintains his security by keeping his women under control. This is one of the aspects which can incline toward the proverbial "male chauvinist pig" so despised by the Woman's Liberation Movement; ironically, however, this movement in its more extreme forms is populated by woman with the same Venus-Saturn contacts. With infinite gentleness and patience the universe informs us yet again that like attracts like.

Venus-Saturn contacts are highly important for several reasons, and it is worth the exploration of their nuances and subtleties to get a clearer idea of the amount of power they wield. There is an unmistakable stamp which often accompanies people who have the aspect on the natal chart, and although Venus is a personal planet without much power in the orthodox sense, the entire personality is often shaped by the presence of a strong Venus-Saturn contact. There is an inference in all of this which suggests that Venus is perhaps a more important a planet than we give her credit for being and that she has a deeper meaning than ornamentation and affection.

Esoteric doctrine tells us that Venus is the twin sister or alter ego of the earth and that in the coming centuries she will have greater power both astrologically and symbolically. There is obviously no way to demonstrate at this point whether this piece of esotericism is of value. But in spite of our modern declarations to the contrary, meaningful relationships - whether we call them marriage or not - are of major importance in the life and growth of the individual psyche both because of the actual experience and because of the inner reality which it symbolises. We have only to look briefly at mythology and folklore, and also at the alchemical "coniuctio" or marriage of Sun and Moon, to glimpse the enormouse psychic importance of the marriage rite as a symbol of union and integration.

Even those who for religious reasons eschew relationships must find a suitable psychological substitute; so the nun becomes the Bride of Christ, and the priest offers service to Mother Church. It is in the area of relationships that human beings are the most vulnerable, and consequently it is here that they can make the greatest steps in growth and self-understanding. Saturn, as we know, is in exaltation in Libra, and some of this opportunity is reflected when he is in the seventh house or aspects Venus. The path of building a relationship based on love and free choice is as valid, and as difficult, a path as the most abstruse of esoteric disciplines.

* * * * * * * * * * *

above text is from "A New Look At An Old Devil" by Liz Greene







Last edited by Shining Ray; 11-04-2007 at 05:15 PM.
  #38  
Unread 11-03-2007, 05:41 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne penner

I think Venus is probably weakest in Scorpio in that there are sexual overtones always even to friendships.
wayne penner, venus is weakest in Scorpio because it's traditionally in "detriment", not necessarily in the overtone of sex. unless you explain this point with a concret convincing statistically solid proof you're full of arguments which are like the water in in a basket, they begin to leak out everywhere now:86:
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Unread 11-03-2007, 05:50 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Well, despite my Venus Square Saturn, I'm still a romantic! Maybe it's my Venus-Mercury-Sun in Pisces in the 5th house, and my Libra Asc! I agee with Shiningray about the emotions being grounded by the Venus Sq. Saturn aspect for water type's. With all of this Pisces energy in my chart, I do need to feel centered.
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Unread 11-03-2007, 08:27 PM
gaer gaer is offline
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Wayne, let me take this point by point…
Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne penner
First, I do in fact believe we are fated to experience what "the stars" fortell in our charts, although to qualify this we also have the ability to decide how we will respond to those experiences in my opinion.
My viewpoint: our natal charts are blueprints. They map out the kinds of experiences we will have to deal with. To use Venus/Saturn aspects as an example, Saturn adds heaviness to anything it "touches". It adds discipline. It's restrictive. It "grounds". It limits. It is not good or bad. It simply "is what it is".

Without Saturn, we would have no structure, no "reality checks".

When Saturn is in hard aspect to any planet, it challenges. The exact nature of the challenge varies according to the aspect (conjunction, square, opposition), but the limitation or restrictions of Saturn are in conflict with the nature of the planet being aspected.

Venus is expansive. It wants to reach out. It wants to love, on all levels, which is why it is exalted in Pisces.

Saturn guards, and when in hard aspects to Venus, it says, "Be careful. Don't take chances. You could get hurt. Loneliness is better than emotional pain through love."

That's the essential problem. In the conjunction, the two planets literally collide. When we are young, Saturn wins. Without support, help, guidance, fear almost always wins.

I do think that things are more or less "set in stone" at birth. However, my personal belief is that the older we become, the more it falls into our own hands as to what we will do about the problems. We are also completely free to waste whatever gifts are charts show.
Quote:
Two people with a similar experience can respond quite differently, and that is where we have choice, and so in this sense we are fated but we do not have to respond as fated.
I believe we are saying the same thing. A difficult aspect shows a challenge, and a combination of difficult aspects sometimes show difficulties that most people are often incapable of conquering. But some do, and this can be seen in the charts of some amazing human beings who have strength to overcome obstacles that would destroy most of us.
Quote:
At some level we must accept that life is not always kind nor is it always just, but how we deal with our experience is our decision alone.
I have no disagreement with this.
Quote:
If people cannot deal with the truth perhaps they should consider a different study than astrology.
I have not seen evidence in this forum that people can't deal with the truth.

Gaer
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Unread 11-04-2007, 12:58 AM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Venus and Saturn

I looked at my synastry with a friend of mine. We were 'romantic' for about 3 months but have known each other about 5 or so years.

His Saturn conjunct my Venus, and my Saturn square his Venus. The relationship never really got off the ground, even though he would be the perfect partner otherwise. We do seem to stick by each other platonically for all these years. Ha ha, even composite, Saturn sesquiquadrate Venus! It was never meant to be. But I know, in desperate times I can rely on him, and I would support him if need be.

Natally he has Venus trine Saturn, I have Venus inconjunct Saturn.

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Last edited by Neptune Rising; 11-04-2007 at 01:02 AM.
  #42  
Unread 11-04-2007, 01:32 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagetoile
wayne penner, venus is weakest in Scorpio because it's traditionally in "detriment", not necessarily in the overtone of sex. unless you explain this point with a concret convincing statistically solid proof you're full of arguments which are like the water in in a basket, they begin to leak out everywhere now:86:
I was actually aware that Venus is in detriment in Scorpio ...

There is a reason of course, the sign and planet have really nothing in common and Venuus will have difficulty expressing itself through Fixed Water, even though it delights in Cancer and Pisces.

The sexual side of Scorpio will often be hard to control, once again Gandhi wrote about this as the most difficult side of his nature. Larry Flynt, the publisher of the pornographic magazine has this position, and considers himself completely depraved. There is a certain graphic honesty with this position.

I wonder what you mean by "concret convincing statistically solid proof". Astrology has never been amenable to statistics, with some apology to Gauqualin, and I would like to know what astrological position or aspect can be explained using "concret convincing statistically solid proof".
  #43  
Unread 11-04-2007, 01:41 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Wayne, Are you suggesting the placement of venus in scorpio causes depravity.....
No mention of the deep loyalties and abiding love that comes with this placement?
I think what Jag is suggesting is that you are overgeneralising..Areyou seriously suggesting that the passion of scorpio and the loving nature of venus have no place together>?
Once again, you are making rash statements..*and there are sexual overtones always to friendships* HUH?????
lillyjgc
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Unread 11-04-2007, 01:59 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by charmvirgo
I have Saturn in Capricorn square Venus in Libra, with an orb of 1.31 degrees separating.

Both Saturn and Venus are unaspected by any other planet, although there is a lovely t-square with BML in Cancer in very close orb of less than 1 degree to both (and my ascendant could be somewhere around Capricorn, perhaps conj Saturn).

I have never had any relationship ever and have lacked any friendships too.
Financially things have always been bad. It's always raining on my side of the street.

I am a very shy and reserved person.
I don't really believe in relationships, they are suffocating to me, I would prefer a friendship. Closeness and trust takes a long time to develop, if I ever got that far.
This sounds like a typical Venus Saturn experience, although as you point out you are shy and reserved. My point would be that if you can become less shy and reserved you might find that relationships become easier and more fulfilling. I would also gently suggest that the "feeling" of being poor actually will bring about the condition while a cultivation of optimism and well-being and charity toward others will improve material fortunes.

Once again, we may not be able to alter what happens to us but we can adjust our attitude toward our fate. And fate it is. But we are not fated to be fated.

I do think that those with this aspect, and Moon square Saturn, always benefit greatly by developing a good sense of humor and not taking themselves too seriously, especially with the latter aspect. With Saturn aspects there always seems to be a certain selfishness in the character, a "what's in it for me" attitude, getting before giving, calculating the returns on every transaction before it takes place. While in the business sphere this may not be a bad thing, it is less successful when dealing with friends or lovers. Many great business leaders in history have had the square, perhaps testimony for the square to suspend feeling and emotion when making difficult business decisions.

A good example of the higher tone of Venus square Saturn is Mother Theresa, who really sacrificed the conventional pleasures of life to minister to the poor.

Gaer we're really not at odds in our thinking. The structure that Saturn gives is sometimes painful, especially by hard aspect, and Saturn is a hard task-master at times.

Last edited by wayne penner; 11-04-2007 at 01:02 AM.
  #45  
Unread 11-04-2007, 01:29 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

[quote=RockFish

There are truths on this side of the Pyranees, which are falsehoods on the other. -- Pascal

[/quote]

Blaise Pascal, whom I am assume you are quoting, did not study astrology.
  #46  
Unread 11-04-2007, 03:02 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Shining Ray, well it's nice to know that Liz Green agrees with me.

Externally, Saturn causes separation in relationships on many levels, the most obvious being physical death, although Saturn square Moon is a more difficult position, the orphan's aspect, and often causes hardship in early life unless Jupiter comes to the aid of the Moon.

With Saturn Venus psychological separations are more common, where there is a gradual separation of interest that almost feels unstoppable and both parties simply drift apart until there is nothing left.

Even the trine and sextile of Venus and Saturn can be evil in the sense that they limit the sense of being lovable, with all that that entails.

I think that we have all agreed that this aspect is difficult, although I am puzzled why the emphasis on this thread has been on the bad aspects when in fact the trine and sextile ar the most beneficial, for the character at least, but there has been hardly any discussion of the trine or sextile. As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating".
  #47  
Unread 11-04-2007, 04:01 AM
gaer gaer is offline
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Ray
Here is Liz Greene's interpretation of the aspect, although I might have posted this before. Here is again anyway.
Thank you for posting this. As I read through it, I considered the whole thing very carefully, and I think there is much truth in it.

However, Liz Greene gives us all a "get out of jail free" card, and it's right at the beginning:
Quote:
Saturnian contacts to Venus, when they occur in the charts of those who are not predisposed towards introspection or self-understanding, are some of the most painful contacts to deal with.
That's important. The basic root of all the problems is fear. Fear of not being loved. Fear of not being worthy of being loved.

It is just like abuse. There are two ways to go, and unfortunately we see too much of the first path:

1) The person who has been abused remains deeply angry and because of fear and anger goes on to abuse other people. (This is what I see most often, and it's truly sad.)

2) The person who has been abused breaks the pattern of abuse through self-examination and a huge amount of emtional growth. It takes work, it takes honesty, and it takes courage.

The "wound" caused by or symbolized by a difficult aspect between Venus and Saturn does, in my opinion, often (and perhaps usually) shows a child who grows up feeling unloved. The reasons for this are without end.

I think we always need to keep in mind that the natal chart is the world through the eyes of the "native". In other words, when I was young, I perceived my father as being cold, distant, not the dad I wanted. But this was not my father. It was how I saw him.

Later in life, I realized that he had great difficulty showing his emotions (Moon square Venus) but behind the shell (double Cancer), there was an incredible amount of love, quiet, restrained but 100% dependable. (Saturn trine Moon).

We became VERY close after my Saturn return. I realized that he had never criticized me, never tried to run my life, always was there whenever I was in trouble, and the love was there. Always. But, you see, I was not able to see it as a child. I wanted it the way I wanted it.

So this how the emotions CAN be crippled, CAN become those of a small child who does not get what s/he wants or needs. Again, without introspection and self-understanding, it can indeed by crippling.

But the important thing is that it does not HAVE to be. We always have choices. Whether we use them or not is quite a different story.

Gaer
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  #48  
Unread 11-04-2007, 04:10 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lillyjgc
Wayne, Are you suggesting the placement of venus in scorpio causes depravity.....
No mention of the deep loyalties and abiding love that comes with this placement?
I think what Jag is suggesting is that you are overgeneralising..Areyou seriously suggesting that the passion of scorpio and the loving nature of venus have no place together>?
Once again, you are making rash statements..*and there are sexual overtones always to friendships* HUH?????
lillyjgc
Yes.

And I don't make rash statements that are untrue. Venus in Scorpio must always exercise considerable self-control over the sexual impulses that the sign continually creates. Not wishing to be pedantic but there are both overtones and undertones to this position. The "passion" of Scorpio that you speak of is really an intensity of emotion and only becomes passion with Venus or Mars in aspect. You might recall that Fixed Water is ice. It is not hot, it is cold.
  #49  
Unread 11-04-2007, 04:18 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Wayne, if fixed water is cold, where do you get the depravity part from????
I had a friend with her venus in scorpio- she hadnt had sex- BY CHOICE- for over 30 years....Her venus in scorpio was directed to study as venus ruled her ninth...I see no substance to what you are saying...way too general and far off the mark. Lillyjgc
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Unread 11-04-2007, 04:22 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne penner
The structure that Saturn gives is sometimes painful, especially by hard aspect, and Saturn is a hard task-master at times.
Definitely. I have taken great pains in this discussion to show what I believe is true. The greater the obstacle, the greater the potential for growth is.

It may be that those of us who overcome the major difficulties of these hard aspects are in the minority, but if we do, I think we have gained something huge.

G
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