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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #1  
Unread 09-27-2012, 02:03 AM
KrisOmari KrisOmari is offline
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Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Hey everyone! I'm in a bit of a dilemma I'm not sure whether to use placid us, or equal, or sidereal, or tropical..? I can understand all of my charts, with all these possibilities, but I'm just wondering, and looking for a definite answer. Thank you in advance.

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Unread 09-27-2012, 02:09 AM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

You'll not get a definite answer. Or many definite answers, heh

If you can understand your charts with them all, then which one rings truest? That's how I judge. Subjective though it is.
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Unread 09-27-2012, 02:28 AM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Yeah, you can try to figure this out in many ways. One route I took was researching about each system's origins to help me decide. After a few years of that, what I would say is pick which system reflects best your life. All the historical arguements fade if you find one that reflects well who you are. Good luck!
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Unread 09-27-2012, 05:17 AM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Right, its up to your own insights, tastes and experiences; personally I use tropical (but with great respect for sidereal, and of course I use sidereal in a way because of the importance I give to the fixed stars and various constellations), and relative to house system format, after using Placidus for 30+ years, I converted to whole sign house about 14 years ago and feel that this house format has given me "better" results than the good results I obtained from Placidus.
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Unread 09-29-2012, 09:17 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Doesn't matter whether it's a Ford, a Chevy, a Fiat or a Mercedes....as long as it gets you where you're going.

Which house system?.....Watch transits, particularly of heavy planets, over the cusps of derivative houses.
'Watch for synchronicity between the passage of the planet over the cusp and events that correspond.
Same thing applies to orbs of aspect. Watch the planets in transit and see when they produce effects.
Study the history of astrology, see what you learn from that.
Study astronomy.....that is, celestial motions as seen from Earth, orbits and such. Very very important if you want to be an astrologer.

I think Robert Hand, who has moved over the years through many house systems, has ended up using equal houses...He was at some confab of erudite astrologers in Masschusetts when he said that all the arguing over house systems was just mental masturbation. That's a pretty apt description.

What''s the philosophical difference between tropical and sidereal? What's the astronomical difference? Answer those questions and make your choice.

What's the ultimate test of astrology? Does it consistently give reliable results? Long and short of the whole deal.

How does astrology work? How can the stars so accurately portray the life of an insignificant human being, or the outcome of some situation? The answer you give may determine which of the systems you prefer to use.

Last edited by greybeard; 09-29-2012 at 09:41 PM.
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Unread 10-28-2012, 07:27 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

thank you everybody
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Unread 11-10-2012, 12:56 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

I'm a firm user of Equal House, it is a refinement of Whole Sign. Yes I have studied with Robert Hand but my first teacher was Carl Payne Tobey. With Equal, all cusps are the same degree as the ASC. If you are married to the MC/IC your software can put it in just like a planet.

There are real math measurement reasons for this that are complicated. In simple form, the Asc/Dsc is measured on the ecliptic. The MC/IC is measured on the equator. These two planes are 23deg26min apart. That is why there are so many house systems, trying to rectify this difference. Only equal and Whole Sign measure all houses on the ecliptic. All other house systems fail above the Arctic Circle.

If you are a beginner, stay with either Whole Sign or Equal. It will serve you better.
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Unread 11-10-2012, 02:17 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Why will "it serve you better?"

What is inherently "better" about whole sign or equal house systems?

I have been using Placidus for over 40 years, ever since I was a beginner. It has served me well.

If the houses are mundane (and they are, for they specifically depict "our immediate surroundings") doesn't it make sense to divide the mundane plane (the equator) equally, rather than the cosmic ecliptic, which is not mundane?

The fact that the quadrant house systems suffer distortion at high latitudes is only a reflection of actual fact. The things that go on at extremely high latitudes (with or without a house system of any kind) are nothing short of amazing. The Ascendent and Descendant, for example, literally flip-flop instantaneously.

I don't have any problem with use of whole sign or equal houses, but it strikes me as arrogant for a proponent of those systems to claim "they are better." Substantiate your claim. Why are they better and how do you prove it? They aren't and you can't.

My guess is that when you were studying under Carl Payne Tobey (really???) you found the calculation of Placidus house cusps too complicated for your head and chose the simple and simplisitic whole sign houses instead. Why not Porphyry Houses, which takes into account the two major geometric planes of astrology while dividing the ecliptic? The Horizon (Asc/Dsc) is certainly the most individualized point in the horoscope -- no matter which systems or methods you use -- and this places the houses of the horoscope in the first rank of power or pertinence, because the houses are what make my chart different from someone else's born on the same day, at the same time.

Last edited by greybeard; 11-10-2012 at 02:39 PM.
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Unread 11-10-2012, 02:53 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

I think the best thing is to find a system that 'speaks' to you. Take that as your base. Then, test and retest different things as you go, as your understanding of the meaning of things improves/changes. Don't get too attached to the first things you learn, as they may be wrong.

Over the course of looking at hundreds of charts, you may begin to build a sense of what is working and what isn't.
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Unread 11-10-2012, 03:02 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
My guess is that when you were studying under Carl Payne Tobey (really???) you found the calculation of Placidus house cusps too complicated for your head and chose the simple and simplisitic whole sign houses instead.
I'd be surprised if most people aren't calculating charts with computers, nowadays.
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Unread 11-10-2012, 04:11 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

That would be my guess too....in today's world;
but we are speaking of Carl Payne Tobey's times....
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Unread 11-10-2012, 05:18 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

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I don't have any problem with use of whole sign or equal houses, but it strikes me as arrogant for a proponent of those systems to claim "they are better." Substantiate your claim. Why are they better and how do you prove it? They aren't and you can't.
If you believe that you cannot prove one form of astrology, or in this case method of calculating and reading a chart, as 'better' then do you believe that they are all equally valid (or invalid)?
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Unread 11-10-2012, 05:22 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
That would be my guess too....in today's world;
but we are speaking of Carl Payne Tobey's times....
Yes, my point is that, even though we have computers calculating the charts now, many people are still interested in non quadrant house systems.

In a modern context, it makes no sense to imply that people who use whole sign houses are just thick or lazy.
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Unread 11-10-2012, 05:39 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
My guess is that when you were studying under Carl Payne Tobey (really???) you found the calculation of Placidus house cusps too complicated for your head and chose the simple and simplisitic whole sign houses instead.
I find your inference inappropriate and agree with Moog who says
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moog View Post
,,,,even though we have computers calculating the charts now, many people are still interested in non quadrant house systems.

In a modern context, it makes no sense to imply that people who use whole sign houses are just thick or lazy.
in any event greybeard, nbennett uses Equal House - not whole signs
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbennett View Post
I'm a firm user of Equal House
Furthermore greybeard, notice that nbennett also said
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbennett View Post
Yes I have studied with Robert Hand
Robert Hand is currently very much in evidence lecturing as well as working as an astrologer.
nbennett only said

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbennett View Post
...but my first teacher was Carl Payne Tobey
fwiw IMO, To have learned astrology from two such erudite teachers as Carl Payne Tobey and Robert Hand is great good fortune!
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Unread 11-11-2012, 02:16 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

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Originally Posted by nbennett View Post

There are real math measurement reasons for this that are complicated. In simple form, the Asc/Dsc is measured on the ecliptic. The MC/IC is measured on the equator.
This godsmacked me! Perhaps you can enlarge? From my perspective of hand calculating charts for most of my astrological life, the MC is calculated using the time of birth and longitude and the Ascendant is calculated from the MC using the latitude of place of birth. As latitude is measured from the equator, it seems to me that the Ascendant is the angle connected to the equator.

Most quadrant house systems then use a mathematical formula to work out houses based on the time (MC) and place (Ascendant) of birth. This is what makes them so special.

Both measurements from the equator and measurements from the ecliptic are quite valid, one isn't better than the other, they are just different factors involving the Earth.

Alice
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Unread 11-11-2012, 04:50 AM
nbennett nbennett is offline
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Well, I would say that if you calculated a chart all based on equatorial directions and a chart all in ecliptic directions, they would both be valid. But to mix the ecliptic and equatorial together gets into problems. The main reason Placidus was so popular, it was the first table of houses printed in english. Although, as an aside, EH house is popular in the UK and India. Just as Vedic astrology is all sidereal measurements and there are heliocentric charts too. The key is that the system be consistent. Measurements should be apples and apples, not apples and oranges.

Which is why the Table of Houses all stopped at 66deg, at the Arctic Circle. Above the Arctic Circle as you travel to the geographic north pole, you are walking geographically north while you are walking ecliptically south. That is why the houses collapse.

Again, you can always put in the MC/IC as a point in the chart, and not give up your desire to blend the two directions. I always put the MC in the chart as a testing point. I put Chiron in there too, sometimes the Vertex to test and follow it. After 10-15 years, I'm not impressed.

If you ever get the CPT book, Astrology of Inner Space, it extensively analyzed the MC with several graphs to show the differences in measurements. In a simple example, the ephermerides lists planets in ecliptic long. You really cannot tell if a planet is really conj the MC because it is in equatorial long. It's possible to be way off from the actual planet. To be sure, then use right ascension measurements for the planet to see if the MC and planet are really conjunct.

I never attempt to change astrologer's habits and personal preferences. But they should know what they are doing in their calculations. Now it's all handled for us with software. So the past 20 years, the newer astrologers never deal with this and have no idea how these measurements are done. Therefore, they never question this either.

Robert Hand and I had a long debate for years over WH and EH. He finally said in 2010 that EH is just as valid as WH. Of course, he is CONSISTENT with teaching Greek techniques using WH.

A short story: Back in 1998-99 students of Rob's had an online blog/list where we talked and debated. At the time, it was being taught that the Greeks did not use/recognize out of sign aspects. Therefore if Mars was at 29Scop and Saturn was 1 Pisces, it did not count! Rob was saying to students that they didn't function. I differed with this concept on the list. Later, there was a strong flame war and very quickly the list was terminated under a Mars sq Uranus transit out of sign! Proof is in the pudding. I did email him and called him on it.
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Unread 11-11-2012, 10:33 AM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Agreed that younger astrologers don't know the value of hand calculation...astrology is founded upon astronomy.

Cross-sign aspects can be even stronger than in-sign aspects simply because of their dissonance. They are often highly significant.
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Unread 11-11-2012, 12:08 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbennett View Post
I'm a firm user of Equal House, it is a refinement of Whole Sign. Yes I have studied with Robert Hand but my first teacher was Carl Payne Tobey. With Equal, all cusps are the same degree as the ASC. If you are married to the MC/IC your software can put it in just like a planet.

There are real math measurement reasons for this that are complicated. In simple form, the Asc/Dsc is measured on the ecliptic. The MC/IC is measured on the equator. These two planes are 23deg26min apart. That is why there are so many house systems, trying to rectify this difference. Only equal and Whole Sign measure all houses on the ecliptic. All other house systems fail above the Arctic Circle.

If you are a beginner, stay with either Whole Sign or Equal. It will serve you better.
Hi, I remember doing some research on Equal a few years back. Am I right in saying, there is some evidence that Ptolemy may have used Equal house? I remember a counter argument that it was simply a misinterpretation that he did, I'd like figure that out. I live reasonably north and frequently see skewed house systems. I know a lot of astrologers in the UK that use Equal house.

An interesting connection between Equal house and Whole Signs I find is that Whole Signs doesn't ignore cusps exactly; the ascending degree becomes the most important point in each house thereafter - only in Equal house, that point becomes the next 'house'. Either way, both systems agree that the ascending degree becomes very important in each house.
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Unread 11-11-2012, 02:45 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

First, your comment about WH with the ASC degree as most important is correct and true. I discussed the issue of Ptolemy EH with Rob Hand. There is a muddled view on how P. defined the Midheaven. It could be read two ways. Greek can be read with multiple meaning which is why astrologers are re-translating them. These old Greek writers were not exact. Rob Hand thought that Ptolemy could also be read as the EH 10th, called the nonagesimal.

I agree that the WH drawn chart is really clean but it doesn't visually show well how important the ASC is, it's just another point in the chart. EH puts the ASC degree as primary for pointing to the most important central apex for the cardinal houses of Asc, 4th, DSC, 10th.

If you work in WH with an ASC of 29Scorpio, it is visually easy to forget that the last degree is the center of the house. That will not happen when using EH. But we must lessen our fixation of where a house begins or ends. See below on house design.

If you want an expanded discussion of the Greeks, how they copied and studied the Egyptian astrologers and made MANY math/measurement mistakes, read the chapter by Livio Stecchini in Secrets of the Great Pyramids. You will have less respect for the Greeks and more for the Egyptians. The Egyptians had perfected a perfect system of measurements and time that were earth commeasurant, the Greeks mis-understood it and messed it up.

According to Nick Campion in History of Astrology, Vol. 1 & 2, there are 700 years of missing astrological history, with no texts or records.

Well your comments now get into where a house begins or ends. The old square horoscopes had houses in the shape of a triangle, with the apex as the center of the house, and most powerful. When astrologers started drawing round horoscopes, the apex center became the line marking the start of the house, which is why the Gaulquin sector strengths work. Like the Asc extends into the 12th house, above the ASC line, and the 10th extends into the 9th.

You will never forget the power of the house apex center using EH, which makes where the house begins less important.

Remember the Greeks were all wrong about out of sign aspects. Just because they are old and have the first remaining texts, doesn't make it correct.

It's a bit confusing which is why the study of our astrological history is worth knowing.

Last edited by nbennett; 11-11-2012 at 02:59 PM. Reason: added more
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Unread 11-11-2012, 09:01 PM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

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Hi, I remember doing some research on Equal a few years back. Am I right in saying, there is some evidence that Ptolemy may have used Equal house? I remember a counter argument that it was simply a misinterpretation that he did, I'd like figure that out
There is no evidence that Ptolemy was an astrologer. The evidence is that Ptolemy was a mathematician and astronomer with theories on astrology with which he 're-worked' 'gave ancient astrology a make-over'. Ptolemy did not 'use Equal House' because Ptolemy was not a working astrologer. That's the crucial difference between Ptolemy and Vettius Valens
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I live reasonably north and frequently see skewed house systems. I know a lot of astrologers in the UK that use Equal house.

An interesting connection between Equal house and Whole Signs I find is that Whole Signs doesn't ignore cusps exactly; the ascending degree becomes the most important point in each house thereafter - only in Equal house, that point becomes the next 'house'. Either way, both systems agree that the ascending degree becomes very important in each house.
Whole Signs INCLUDES Equal House, because the ascending degree of Whole Signs repeats as a 'sensitive degree' WITHIN EACH WHOLE SIGN HOUSE
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Unread 11-12-2012, 03:45 AM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Yes, the problems of increasing high latitude with distorted house systems is cured with WH or EH. Pick your favorite!
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Unread 11-13-2012, 12:49 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbennett View Post
Well, I would say that if you calculated a chart all based on equatorial directions and a chart all in ecliptic directions, they would both be valid. But to mix the ecliptic and equatorial together gets into problems. The main reason Placidus was so popular, it was the first table of houses printed in english. Although, as an aside, EH house is popular in the UK and India. Just as Vedic astrology is all sidereal measurements and there are heliocentric charts too. The key is that the system be consistent. Measurements should be apples and apples, not apples and oranges.
The calculation of a chart involves the two measurements that are consistently used on Earth, latitude and longitude.

Once a chart is calculated we can choose between two different perspectives:

1. Longitude measurements along the ecliptic (which are quite valid as the ecliptic is the Earth's orbit around the Sun) and latitude measurements north and south of the ecliptic.

2. measurements of Right Ascension and Declination.

Both systems are valid and useful. The mundane Right Ascension and Declination are becoming more popular, particularly through the use of Primary directions.

I agree that the reason Placidus became so popular was that it was the only house system available in English for quite a while. Other methods of calculating time and space, producing various house systems, can be just as valid.


Quote:
Again, you can always put in the MC/IC as a point in the chart, and not give up your desire to blend the two directions. I always put the MC in the chart as a testing point. I put Chiron in there too, sometimes the Vertex to test and follow it. After 10-15 years, I'm not impressed.
I am truly astonished you are not impressed! I have had many, many years of working with people of all walks of life and have done years of study and research, particularly on the Vertex axis, and am very impressed!

Did you know that in natural births the child's Sun or its duads will very often echo the sign of a parent's MC or IC, or the duads of the MC or IC.

In all matters to do with prediction involving career and/or public life, it features very strongly.

I have done extensive work on the Vertex axis and have presented much of my findings here: http://aliceportman.com/category/vertex-axis/

I would never think of doing predictive work without using it as it consistently maps important events in a person's life.

Alice

Last edited by Alice McDermott; 11-13-2012 at 01:15 AM.
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Unread 11-13-2012, 01:48 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

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Originally Posted by KrisOmari View Post
Hey everyone! I'm in a bit of a dilemma I'm not sure whether to use placid us, or equal, or sidereal, or tropical..? I can understand all of my charts, with all these possibilities, but I'm just wondering, and looking for a definite answer. Thank you in advance.
For a start:

Tropical astrology is mapped from the time the Sun moves over the equator at 00Norh00 declination, which is called 0 Aries on the ecliptic, and the signs of the zodiac are mapped in even, 30 degree segments from that point, with 0 Cancer at 23North26 declination, 0 Libra at 00South00 declination as the Sun moves into the Southern hemisphere and 0 Capricorn at 23South26 declination. I have done my best to describe this, with illustrations, here: http://aliceportman.com/what-is-the-...ere-astrology/

So tropical astrology is based on the real orbit of the Earth around the Sun.

Sidereal astrology has many problems, including considerable differences in measuring when to start 0 Aries. From my point of view after many years of study, these problems need to be cleared up before it can be seriously considered. Perhaps it would interest you to read this critique by the highly respected Dieter Koch: http://www.astro.com/astrologie/in_vedic2_e.htm

Therefore I recommend you start your studies with Tropical Astrology.

As to house systems:

There are many ways of dividing time and space to arrive at various house systems. Placidus is the most commonly used and, for many, many people, very accurate indeed. Equal House is just equal 30 degree divisions from the Ascending degree, so it is not truly a house system that involves the division of time and space involving the Ascendant and MC, just 'houses' arranged from the Ascendant, so perhaps it should really be called Ascendant Houses. You can also do Equal houses from the MC and these could be called MC houses.

Equal houses are very simple, but from my own studies, not all that accurate in mapping events in the life.

So, if you are just starting your astrological studies, perhaps it would be a good idea to start with the Tropical Zodiac and a quadrant house system, the most popular of which is Placidus. This should give you a good, thorough and intelligent grounding in basic astrology. If your interest continues, it would then be a good idea to look at the reasons behind the various types of house systems and study the way these are calculated.

For a really good, clear practical understanding of how to use a house system in real life, I recommend Noel Tyl's Vocational Exercises here: http://noeltyl.com/discussion/index.php?board=2.0 Though the tutoring is based on how to determine a person's career or vocation, the principles hold true for any area of someone's life. It would probably be a good idea to start with the earlier examples as the shorthand they use in the more recent examples could be confusing for a beginner.

Alice
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Unread 11-13-2012, 06:02 AM
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

I use tropical, Placidus.

But that does not mean that only the tropical zodiac and quadrant houses are to be used. If equal houses or other similar systems give good results (for you), by all means use them. The same applies to the different zodiacs in use. They are, after all, nothing but systems of measurement which can be chosen arbitrarily (although I happen to agree with the philosophical basis of the tropical.) The tropical zodiac keeps the signs lined up with the seasons (signs have symbolic relationships with the seasons) while the sidereal zodiacs do not...Christmas can come in summer in the sidereal zodiac -- and what would the world do without a White Christmas? Only an Australian can imagine such a thing.

The various sidereal zodiacs (there are pehaps a half-dozen different ayanamsas) are all based on the constellations (fixed stars) and are most appropriate for those astrologers who take a physical or material view of astrology -- who think its causative energy streams forth from some certain place in the sky. The tropical zodiac, which is earth-centered rather than cosmic because of its point of origin (the vernal equinox as measured each year), is more suited to the humanistic astrologer and the abstract -- rather than concrete -- type of mind. The sidereal zodiac(s) relegate astrology to the distant stars, while the tropical brings it down to Earth. Both allow for precession; the claim by the siderealists that tropical does not allow for precession is bogus. And the Fiduciary for any of the sidereal systems is arbitrary, whereas the zodiacal point of beginning in the tropical system is measured each year and not arbitrary but real.

As far as house systems go, the attempts to adjust for high latitudes in the quadrant systems fail. But the reason is that such phenomena actually occur at the high latitudes. The difference between ecliptic and equator causes these difficulties, but they are real and not created by systems. The systems only reflect the reality. The symbolism of the equator is "mundane" and that is why it should be the basis for houses. The signs are "cosmic" and rely on "the stars" (not actually, but at least symbolically). That is why the "star" positions are given in zodiacal (ecliptical) longitude. The houses, unlike the signs, are not "cosmic" but "mundane." They do not show deep and immutable essential characteristics as do the signs, but instead show "immediate surroundings", "the worldly condition of circumstances," or adventitious or accidental occurrences. That is why they should be determined from the equator rather than the ecliptic. It is the transference, translation or projection of the equatorial into zodiacal terms that "produces" the distortion at high latitudes.

Different astrologers adopt different systems. All of the systems work to a greater or lesser degree, and astrologers choose a given system based on their own personality and proclivities. My own experimentation with the whole-sign types of houses did not suggest to me that they are superior, and therefore I continue to use Placidus (and in some cases Regiomontanus) houses. Other astrologers, such as Robert Hand and Dr. Farr, have found whole-sign houses to work very well and use them.

When I cast a horary chart, using Placidus, for an urgent question regarding personal death (in the middle of the night) and the person's natal 8th cusp (in Placidus) appears as the Ascendant, it makes me think there is something significant in that house system. No other house system gave me the 8th cusp rising in a question of imminent death.

That is the question to answer in choosing your house system: Does this system provide sensitive degree points that correspond to actual experiences in the life? I have found that house cusp degrees given by Placidus do often meet this criteria.

As far as the two primary planes of astrology go, both the horizon and meridian are primary. They form the structural basis of any horoscope, in reality. The whole-sign group of house systems generally ignores the primary importance of one or the other in the horoscope. I find this unacceptable; the reality and primacy of the Midheaven can't be denied. The calculation of the entire chart depends on the RAMC; to calculate the chart based on this position, and then to ignore the point (or put it into a position of secondary importance) seems illogical to me. The meaning of the Tenth Cusp is "That which stands above all else -- i.e., the king, the highest authority, that which is over the native, what is elevated in his life. That is the same meaning as the MC, and the two should be one.

But as I have said repeatedly, if it works for you, use it. Astrology, although it indeed forms a body of philosophy, should not be judged on its philosophical merits but on its ability to produce consistently reliable results when applied to real world problems.

Actually, the testing of the zodiacs is not that hard to do. You can set the same chart in both systems. This will, in most cases, change the house rulers. Where, for example, Mars is lord of the Ascendant in one chart, it may be Jupiter in the other. The question then is: "Which of these two planets best describes the character and life of this real individual? Which rulers of derived houses seem to more accurately describe actual life circumstances? It shouldn't take too many test horoscopes to find out which system seems to give the better result. Such testing, even though it tends toward an objective evaluation, must still remain primarily subjective. Like it or not, astrology contains a highly subjective tone and it can't be helped. This is at once the strength and the weakness of astrology.

Last edited by greybeard; 11-13-2012 at 06:29 AM.
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Re: Sidereal or Tropcal? Placidus, or Equal.

Whole sign does NOT ignore the importance of the MC as a horoscopic point, and never has done so: ONLY difference is that whole sign allows this point to FLOAT among signs/houses, and does not construct a house system so as to always and invariable make the MC the border ("cusp") of the 10th house; the MC stands above all else, and if that point happens to be in the 10th, then the generic indications of that house stand above all else in that chart for that individual (or event, etc); but if the MC is in the 11th or the 9th, then the generic indications of the 11th or 9th house stand above all else FOR THAT PARTICULAR individual (or event, etc); it was in fact the developing desire to MAKE the MC identical with the 10th, and insisting upon the 10th house and the MC as being the same in meaning, which led to the increasing adoption of the porphyry system (beginning around the 6th century) and then to the later systems (alchabitius dominating for many centuries, then later campanus, regiomontanus, placidus, etc etc) This is not to dispute these quadrant systems, just to point out the early concept (of the Hellenists and also of the early Vedic astrologers) regarding the MC and its relationship (meaning-wise) the houses at the "top of the chart"///
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