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Predictive Astrology This is the place to discuss the astrology of the past, present, and future. Includes eclipses, transits, progressions, planetary returns.


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  #26  
Unread 06-28-2009, 10:52 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Lost spirit and Didi, thanks for your examples. Deanna, thanks for the link. I guess they reinforce MHO that something astrological happens at the moment of death; but that the horoscopes are so different that they don't make good predictors for someone else.
Definitely.
I also had a Solar Arc going on when my sister was killed- which was the day after my birthday.

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  #27  
Unread 06-29-2009, 12:26 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

That seems to be so true waybread, like a birthchart is so uniquie so is the end of life chart.

Lost_spirit... im thinking also that different plannets have to be involved depending of circustances of the nataure of the end of ones life.

Like we all come in with different paths and different things to go through in life so maybe the type of death is the same.

deanna i would like to see the chart of your sister also if you feel you would like to put it up!
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  #28  
Unread 06-29-2009, 10:27 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

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Originally Posted by lillyjgc View Post
I've noticed with death charts, as the time of death approaches, many quincunxes seem to form,by transit to natal planets, (adjustments to be made) and the hours afterwards seem to have lots of quintiles.(easy and *spiritual* energies)..
Fascinating observation. Based on how many charts and over a large geographical area or just your local area? I have been obsessed with studying inconjuncts (save for my last 3 year hiatus from study in astrology). I found some relational patterns involving quincunx and some interesting personality trait changes based on transitional charts (with houses, Koch used) and weighting to natal with asteroids included. I realize the presence of Qx isnt going to predict death but it may be an indicater of other things. Example, I found a desire for transcendance of self can come durring a time of high amounts of Qx realating with the TMN and PoF to the Ascendant.

My mentors' mentor, she is quite talented in predictive astology and predicting death but she is also the poster-add for TMI. In fact once she figured out how to do it she scared herself into stopping practicing and became a recluse. A sad waist of talent... i wish she would share her knowledge though. Oh well guess I'll just have to figure that part out for myself.

Last edited by Icaticus; 06-29-2009 at 10:31 AM.
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  #29  
Unread 06-29-2009, 10:48 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

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Originally Posted by Joseph Ledzion View Post
You also have to know the Hyleg and Alcochoden. These are the givers of life in the chart, like God and a Guardian Angel. These are your 9 lives, so to speak (meow). When the Anareta comes along by Square or Conjunction etc., to the Hyleg; the Hyleg having already "expired" (there are different ways this can happen), then the native will encounter a very dangerous situation, possible death.
About the hyleg expiring,I've read several articles on this,and I think you mean the planetary years given by the Alcochoden.If the Alcochoden gives you 75 years of life,after this time passes,any bad aspects from the Anareta to the Hyleg can cause death.
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  #30  
Unread 07-04-2009, 08:38 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Joseph, I have great respect for your knowledge of traditional astrology. But I am struck by your comment that you could have died but didn't at a moment when your transits looked grim. So in this instance you did not die.

Part of the reason for the "death" of astrology as a respected academic subject during the Enlightenment were some very senior astrologers making some very incorrect death-clock predictions. One of them was the great medical doctor and astrologer Jean-Baptise Morin (1583-1659) who was off by a mere 5 years in forecasting the death of one of his critics [Jim Tester, A History of Western Astrology, 232-7.] When Morin attempted to defend astrology's truth claims against an attack by a leading Jesuit scholar who noted that astrologers were too often simply wrong in their predictions, Morin did not respond with a defense of astrologers' track record; but basically compared astrology with other fields of study that, in his day, also made a lot of poor predictions. I. e., there were "quacks in all professions," so there was no reason to single out astrology for its inaccuracies. Well, the professions Morin identified included medicine and navigation; two fields that still make mistakes, but that subsequently advanced significantly in their predictive accuracy.

Well, this isn't such a problem for traditional astrology where little rides upon the outcome of a prediction; but where someone's death is concerned, there are too many ethical and subjective considerations to make death prediction a sound practice.

In my opinion.
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  #31  
Unread 07-04-2009, 09:29 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

I too have conflictions with this subject. While you may be able to calculate things, there are certainly issues where one needs to turn to a higher power for answers, and to me this is that type of issue. Just my personal take.
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  #32  
Unread 07-04-2009, 09:38 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Waybread,
Quote:
but where someone's death is concerned, there are too many ethical and subjective considerations to make death prediction a sound practice
Well said, I agree I don't believe there is enough evidence or proof that can be relied upon and I certainly wouldn't even attempt to.

"The Astrology Of Death" by Richard Houck.

Just found this off the internet when I googled michael jackson chart. Don't know if its any good though
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  #33  
Unread 07-05-2009, 07:38 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Well, now that I'm studying progressions and solar arcs and they are starting to make (a lot of) sense, thanks to Noel Tyl, I suddenly understand the problem with predicting death.

I checked some progressions, arcs and transits for me and got terrified with a year in the near future that seems particularly grim. I was already wondering what to do with the little time that is left for me... Unpleasant feeling.

Lucky me, I doubt my own skills too much to believe this 100%, and I still have to check other cases of grim progressions and transits to know what i'm dealing with here... I'll keep an eye open that year, but I won't let this thing make me paranoid... hopefully.

I now see how this whole thing can be dangerous. If you get someone with a suggestible mind or who fears death too much and predict death to them, they can go bonkers. Not everybody is made of tough material to discuss this kind of thing. Besides, the astrologer can always be wrong, so why taking risks with such a sensitive subject? You can turn someone's life upside down with such a "prediction"... Unless death is iminent and the client has practical concerns about it, then I think such a prediction must be avoided.
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  #34  
Unread 07-08-2009, 10:33 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Joseph, thanks. We may have to simply "agree to disagree."

On another thread, Frank posted the codes of ethics for two professional astrological associations:

The International Scoiety for Astrological Research has a Certified Astrological Professional (C.A.P.) Code of Ethics, found here:
http://www.isarastrology.com/code-of...u-41/read-code
The National Council for Geocosmic Research Ethics Code is at:
http://www.geocosmic.org/about/ethics.shtml

So far as I can tell, neither organization actually forbids making death predictions, but they have a lot to say about astrologers' treating their clients with utmost sensitivity, avoiding frightening their clients, and "not participating[ing] in activities in which it appears likely that their expertise or data will be misused by others." [NCGC] There is a "first do no harm" thesis underlying these codes.

The problem with death predictions for clients or forum members [vs. "post mortems" or "postdictions"] is that these conditions can be very hard to meet.

If I were to predict that "Mary" would get run over by a bus on July 17, 2012 and not recover, I wouldn't know how frightened or upset she might be by this information unless I knew her personally. Possibly Mary would become reclusive and depressed in her own home, just to avoid walking across the street. Or possibly she would take a lot of big risks during the next 3 years, figuring she was invulnerable till her predicted death date.

If I were wrong, and Mary lived another 20 years only to die in her sleep, I would have done her a big disservice. I would also be doing astrologers a big disservice, as our truth-claims are so readily dismissed in society.

If I were correct, [remember the Sleeping Beauty story?] even then, I might not know if Mary would share my prediction with others, possibly an unscrupulous husband who would clean out her bank account just prior to her death, making her will meaningless. Let alone what could happen to her finances in the hands of an unscrupulous astrologer.

Many years ago, I wanted to be psychic. I don't know why, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Then I suddenly realized with horror the full implications of what this would mean. I would know when and how my children would die. I would know about all of the impending wars and brutality inflicted upon millions of innocent victims, yet be powerless to stop it. And so on. So now I think we are generally much better off being unable to predict death. I leave this up to God.

Speaking of Whom, I don't mean to lay a religious trip on anyone who is not religious or spiritual, but this really is the gist of the Bible's condemnations of the Chaldeans [i. e. astrologers.] Some of the prophets mocked prognosticators' efforts to predict the future, as God was powerful enough to overturn their predictions according to His own timing, power, and plans.

So I wouldn't say that an astrologer should never predict death; and doing a "post-mortem" is less dangerous. But for most professional and amateur purposes, I don't think it is a wise idea.

I do think medical astrology is legitimate, including for very serious illness and injuries, but this is different than a flat-out death-clock prediction.
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  #35  
Unread 08-19-2009, 04:27 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

An interesting and thoughtful reply, Joseph.

Unfortunately I just don't have a lot of confidence in the accuracy of death predictions. I suspect that Morin's misjudgements were not a one-off occurance.

And because of this suspicion, I would really hate to see "death clock astrology" occupy a bigger place in our field. I mean, it's bad enough if a well-meaning (or not-so-well-meaning) amateur reads a natal horoscope for a basic character analysis and gets it wrong. Imagine the harm that could be done if such an "astrologer" were to get into the death prediction business. A real sorcerer's apprentice scenario.

You might be a very mature, educated, and well-intended person. But in writing what you do on a public Forum, you have no control over amateur or inept (or even dishonest) professional astrologers who decide to predict people's deaths because they read on the Internet that it is possible and perhaps even a good idea.

I am mindful that masters of various traditional esoteric types of "knowledge" did not publicize some of their lore, precisely because it could be misused or misinterpreted if it fell into the wrong hands. Some rabbis thought that men shouldn't study Jewish mysticism until they reached at least the age of 40. Other cognoscenti wrote in a very cryptic kind of code, which only initiates could interpret. Maybe this isn't such a bad idea today--assuming that death clock astrology actually works.

Death prediction in astrology just has too many "danger" signs posted all over it for me to think that it should occupy more than an antiquarian place in our discipline.

So this isn't about fear of death. It is about sensitivity surrounding it.

Last edited by waybread; 08-19-2009 at 04:29 AM.
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  #36  
Unread 08-19-2009, 09:32 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Waybread,
i agree with your comment back on page one, that the appearances of quincunxes should not be used as a death predictor-It's so much easier to see *after the event* than it is to see it in advance.
In terms of predicting death on a public Forum-definitely not.I think there are certain circumstances where it is appropriate to help someone in that way, if it is important to them, and a relationship of trust exists between the Astrologer and the client.I don't think that can be achieved in a public forum.

When it became apparent my stepfather was going to die of his illness, it was useful to use Astrology to look at timing. In that process I also considered every family members' Natal charts.There were strong aspects affecting everybody-indications of death happening, but if any one of us had gone to see an astrologer at that time, would they have been able to see who was the one dying? I am doubtful.
To just tell someone, *out of the blue* that their life expectancy is x years, based on one's own interpretation of a natal chart would be highly unethical, potentially damaging (remember, like doctors, we must *do no harm*), but to advise them to avoid say water sports, (as my astrologer has warned my daughter) could indeed be an important part of their decision making in terms of playing it safe in their life.
William Lilly i think does have a long treatise somewhere about how to calculate length of life, and yes it also includes a sound knowledge of the hyleg and other lesser used points in modern astrology.
Cheers
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  #37  
Unread 08-20-2009, 03:34 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Well spoken, Lilly. But you probably recall Walt Disney's animated version of The Sorcerer's Apprentice, in which Mickey Mouse decided to mimic his master--and with disastrous results that he could not control. What is to prevent other ill-informed or even malicious apprentices from using this astrological information to the harm of their "clients" or the disrepute of astrology?

I don't know about Lilly, but traditional astrology during the Enlightenment was littered with cases of magi who got it wrong. Their errors contributed to astrology's demise as a credible subject.

Not what we need today, I believe!
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  #38  
Unread 08-20-2009, 07:33 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Well spoken, Lilly. But you probably recall Walt Disney's animated version of The Sorcerer's Apprentice, in which Mickey Mouse decided to mimic his master--and with disastrous results that he could not control. What is to prevent other ill-informed or even malicious apprentices from using this astrological information to the harm of their "clients" or the disrepute of astrology?

I don't know about Lilly, but traditional astrology during the Enlightenment was littered with cases of magi who got it wrong. Their errors contributed to astrology's demise as a credible subject.

Not what we need today, I believe!
The bottom line remains: Do No Harm.

There are two extremes here.

One is the danger of self-fulfilled prophecies. People can literally be scared to death.

The other extreme is the potential life-saving potential of wise advise. In Lilly's example, we will never know, for sure, if the advise to stay away from water sports might have saved her life.

I would not want to be told that my death is coming, and it is inevitable. I see no good in that.

However, if I had a terminal disease, if I knew for certain that I had only a rather short window of time to take care of things, then I can see where knowing more precisely when the end is coming could be very helpful.

The terrible thing about death is that it often comes after a long period of suffering, and so far we are not free to choose our own time of ending the pain.
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  #39  
Unread 08-28-2009, 02:44 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

Joseph, thanks for yet another thoughtful, informed reply.

If professional astrologers as a body were more accurate in their predictions of important life events, I might change my mind. But the fact remains that some of the professionals--and prior to the early 20th century they were all traditionalists--have made errors in their predictions. Morin's weak defense of astrology and his own miscalculations in death predictions are but one example. Today there is nothing to prevent amateurs and charlatans who know far less astrology than the true professionals from trying to impress their friends or squeeze dollars out of gullible, frightened clients with a kind of astrology that is bad by any measure.

Some doors need to be closed. Not because they cannot be opened, but because they should not be opened.

Moreover, if the Bible [Jewish or Christian] is of any interest to you, you will find the prophets' condemnations of prognostication [e. g. of the "Chaldeans."] Why? Because God can and does make a mockery of their predictions. It is His universe and He can direct it at will. On the other hand, if you are an agnostic or atheist, then you need at least some explanation as to why the universe should be structured [and by Whom or by What] to determine those life-events you cite.

I believe in a choice-centered astrology. I believe that variables that cannot be transparently read off a chart [such as ethnicity and gender] have a huge impact in the outcome of someone's life.

I am very comfortable with the motto, "Let go and let God."
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  #40  
Unread 12-31-2009, 10:44 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

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Originally Posted by windwaker24 View Post
Hi All,

I have a question. Scorpio is in my 8th house and both Mars, Saturn and Pluto are in my 8th house, which from what I understand are the natural rulers of the 8th house and Scorpio. Does this mean I have a short life and violent death?
If you do not mind then please send your birth details ( DATE , TIME & Birth plACE )


Thank you
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  #41  
Unread 01-01-2010, 10:56 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Olivia, thanks for your impassioned and insightful reply.

Gosh! My religion--such as it is/isn't, in no way forbids astrology!

I think we are looking at the same history but we differ on whether astrology's glass is half-empty or half-full. Success in death predictions ought not be viewed like a batting average. If an astrologer is wrong with a client, that error is 100% for that individual. The consequences of that error can be serious for the client; and damaging for astrology more generally.

Astrology is not viewed as a highly credible undertaking even under good circumstances by decision-makers and professional people in western society. [Nancy Reagan notwithstanding.] Erroneous death predictions have the potential to further damage astrology's reputation, notably in jurisdictions where astrologers can be denied business licenses, or told that they must advertise their services as "for entertainment purposes only."

My personal strategy in certain situations in life is to consider that when the possibility of something going wrong is small, but the consequences of something going wrong are huge, I need to implement a lot of caution and safeguards. Astrological death predictions are one of these situations.

It would take me a while to retrieve them, but at one point I collected a set of ethics codes published by professional astrological associations. They seem opposed to any practices that would damage astrogers' professional credibility or that might harm vulnerable clients.

To me, an erroneous death prediction has more-than-small chances of going wrong, and fairly serious consequences, if it does, for the "native" in question. Just for example, seriously ill people, or people of a nervous disposition are highly suggestable. Most astrologers have no professional training in dealing with patients in end-of-life circumstances, nor in treating suicidal people. For most astrologers to think that they can actually "help" such people in some fashion is extremely foolish, arrogant, and potentially dangerous.

When my children were babies, I took every precaution against crib-death. I didn't need an astrologer to make me even more concerned than I already was about my babies' well-being.

Astrology surely has a tradition within Judaism, as exemplified by the zodiac floor mosaics in about half a dozen synagogues in Israel, some sects of Jewish mysticism, and the traditional Jewish calender. But astrology in any branches of normative Judaism is not seen as superior to God's power to run the universe to His liking. To the Hellenized Jews who built synagogues incorporating zodiac designs, the mosaics were a symbolic representation of God's ordering of the heavens.

Both professional and amateur scholars have looked at astrological symbolism in the Bible for several centuries. A few years ago, I made a stab at this myself. I think the 12 tribes symbolism plus many additional allusions are there in the pre-Hellenic material, but not necessarily with the commonly-held 12 zodiacal signs; as some of the descriptions of the tribes are poor fits with zodiac constellations. Rather, the state of the heavens during the Mediterranean rainy season was of prime importance to ancient Jews, and they included constellations both on and off the ecliptic.

In terms of whether any available or potential knowledge needs some kind of fruition, I have to disagree with this. Because something can be known, let alone implemented, doesn't mean that it should be. If the US Army could develop better anti-personnel devices for maiming children in Afghanistan, should they do this? If Monsanto can develop "terminator" seeds that would destroy poor farmers' abilities to save and replant their own viable seeds, should Monsanto collect the information and run the lab experiments to do so?

And the "knowledge" of Renaissance astrologers is questionable as knowledge, regardless. Despite the English Civil War, astrological knowledge persisted in continental Europe. Astrology died out in continental European universities by the late 18th century because its truth-claims were in shambles.

[BTW, I spent over 30 years as a university professor, prior to my retirement, so knowledge collection and dissemination were my business.]
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  #42  
Unread 01-01-2010, 11:42 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Hi again, Olivia: This thread has been moribund for a while: I can see that I did post links to professional astrological societies' codes of ethics in an old previous post on this thread.

I also just looked up "hyleg" in an encylopedia/dictionary of astrology that I have on hand. The entry focussed extensively on death prediction, noting at least half a dozen different traditional methods for calculation. Well, if these lead to different results, I find this state of affairs highly problematical for any astrologer wanting to enter the "death clock" business.

For me, also, the evidence and logic of mass death situations is compelling. We know that thousands of people die within minutes of one another in natural and cultural disasters like tsunamis, earthquakes, and bombings. Hundreds of people die almost simultaneously in airline crashes where there are no survivors.

Yet the charts of the victims will be widely different from one another, due to their differences in age; and oftentimes, birth location.

Well, if astrological death prediction worked, then an astrologer should be able to get a few hundred charts from a mass death event [probably from jurisdictions where birth times appear on birth certificates] and show, for each victim, how the identical technique worked satisfactorily in each horoscope.

Also, I see nothing wrong in a general way in encouraging the "native" to be extra careful during particular periods. But even a close call is not a death event. Death is one of those things like pregnancy: either one is, or one isn't.

Last edited by waybread; 01-01-2010 at 11:44 PM.
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  #43  
Unread 01-02-2010, 10:24 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

If death were to be easily predicted, can one imagine how many people would be distraught or deceived by unscrupulous astrologers?
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  #44  
Unread 01-03-2010, 12:09 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

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Originally Posted by Bir Singh Khari View Post
If you do not mind then please send your birth details ( DATE , TIME & Birth plACE )


Thank you

Sure. 1-13-1984; 9:53am; Blue Island, IL.
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  #45  
Unread 01-14-2010, 04:15 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

My brother was born on October 27th, 1978 at 6:59 AM in Panama City, Panama.

This is his natal:



These are his transits on the day of his passing. I don't know how to change the time, but he passed between 2:25 and 2:40 PM in Moreno Valley, CA:



Here's his progression chart to his day of passing:



...and the natal w/progressions:



Tell me what you guys think. But please don't tell me something philosophical like how "we can't" or "aren't supposed to" do this. I would like to know the best explanations anyone has to offer. Maverick, professional, or whatever. Please realize that I came here regardless of what that entails. If I wanted a pro, I would have paid for one.

The most simple things I've noticed are:

A) Moon progressed into Scorpio near time of death
B) Sun transiting into progressed second house (opposition to 8th cusp) at time of death

Besides explanations, does anyone want to take a stab at how he died? I'll try to only answer yes or no.

I can't wrap my mind around this... and yes, I'm still grieving. Believe it or not, this helps.
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  #46  
Unread 01-14-2010, 06:50 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

Mercury in a water sign ruling 8th house of death suggests fluid in the lungs - drowning?

Last edited by Mr stellium; 01-14-2010 at 07:03 PM.
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  #47  
Unread 01-14-2010, 08:16 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

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Originally Posted by Mr stellium View Post
Mercury in a water sign ruling 8th house of death suggests fluid in the lungs - drowning?
Gemini = Lungs, right? This is correct. His death did have something to do with fluid in the lungs. Simple enough, right? I don't suppose anyone else would care to extrapolate the circumstances (if at all possible)?

Thanks, Mr stellium.

EDIT: As a side note, I received a PM from aquarius7000 predicting that the cause of death may also have to do with a long term illness. This is also correct. I'm afraid I must go on playing the role of concealer before I go on to reveal the mystery, because there a few more major details that I believe can be gleaned from the charts. No, I can't see them myself, but because these two intimate details were able to be revealed by looking, I'm confident others can find the remaining circumstances.

Thanks again.
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  #48  
Unread 01-16-2010, 11:30 PM
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Re: Predicting Death

I'm bumping this thread. Still no takers? I got a PM from Bir Singh Khari outlining his theory in Vedic astrology. Interesting stuff, but I'm still working out some kinks with him. I'd like to hear from any and everyone if possible.

Thanks to all that have read.
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  #49  
Unread 10-20-2010, 12:38 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

I do not think that astrologers have any business making death predictions. Traditional astrologers did a lot of this, and some of them were notoriously wrong. The practice is fraught with potential abuses. It just gives astrology a black eye, in my opinion. Which is not something it needs, given our reputation with most educated people.

Lacell, it is normal, basic biology for you to be afraid of death. Call it the survival instinct. Religion and philosophy developed in part to help people deal with this fear.
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  #50  
Unread 10-20-2010, 06:27 AM
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Re: Predicting Death

lacellrein: Were you born 5/7/84 @ 5:46 PM somewhere around Kadena, Japan?

Oh, and do you smoke?

I have to defer to the senior member, because this forum has a hierarchy that was established before I joined and that automatically makes me less than he. =)

The real reason I defer to him is because I DO think gleaning the time of death from a chart is something you shouldn't mess with... at least in an advisory capacity. I have always seen astrology as a tool for self-discovery, and I do believe that even the greatest of advisors cannot but help to fall back to their own charts in times of confusion or disincentive... and I also believe that everyone that ever could has crossed that so-called "moral line" and has "taken a peek" at their own death at one point or another.

Cause is easy... timing is a little trickier. SO many factors influence it... but the rub of course is that no matter how many moving parts, the process IS somewhat mechanical and the parts ARE finite. I, on the other hand, choose to see astrology in a more dynamic context... integrating both my intuitions and personal experiences with the ever growing knowledge I acquire. Robert Hand (author of "Planets in Transit") himself writes in MANY transits that although certain ones of them do indicate a great time of change, that they don't necessarily indicate a sudden, jarring (or unforseeable) change; the changes can indeed and instead be seen as the ultimate result of circumstances that one could feel coming for a long time.

To me, this means that when it's time for you to know, you'll know. Of course, I'd rather be able to see things coming from farther to feign wisdom... but if you think about it, when one is able to see the end from the beginning... and no matter how many people acclaim you for your foresight, you'll also know that it wasn't you that somehow "cultivated" that ability. So where would such an ability come from?

*sigh* ... Believing in the future is, by default, believing in the past... so we all know that things came before us... and that they will always go on. Better to leave that power in the hands with which it belongs!

My best stab at your CAUSE of death is some sort of breathing failure that somehow has to do with your nose or throat. But something tells me that that's just too simple. I might not be a professional, but if I was, I wouldn't have told you squat to begin with! =D So take that for what it's worth.

As for time, it's like I said... who knows?? =) Only you can answer that question. That, I believe, is God's honest truth... and gift to us! O_O
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