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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Unread 01-22-2020, 07:16 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The same term (rejoicing) is used as for the seven planetary joys. The last sentence is particularly interesting, and may allude to some alternate arrangements by some Hellenistic astrologers - Manilius assigns Saturn to the 4th, and Venus to the 10th (I vaguely remember the latter being discussed in a surviving Hellenistic horoscope either by Deborah Houlding or Dorian Greenbaum). These arrangements of course more uncommon than the traditional joys.
Chris Brennan mentions this in that paper linked above:


Manilius is the only ancient author who described an alternate scheme for the joys, where Venus
rejoices in the 10th rather than the 5th, and Saturn in the 4th rather than the 12th. Unfortunately, since Manilius’ text is the only one which contains this alternate scheme, it is unclear whether his
arrangement represents a genuine variant tradition, an error in the textual transmission, or an
idiosyncratic addition of his own. Both the arguments for and against viewing Manilius’ variant as
legitimate have been made by different scholars in the past two decades.


-

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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What I really wanted to figure out is
if/how the joys override the weakness of cadency.
I think I'm starting to get a better understanding though
from some of the replies here and on skyscript,
still not 100% on it though.
a planet in Joy IS strengthened
when that planet in JOY is located in a CADENT house

and
the accidental debility of cadency is MINIMISED


nevertheless
the EXTENT to which the CADENCY is MINIMISED
is arguable
the main factor is
that a planet in JOY is HAPPIEST in the house of its JOY
more so than in any other house of the natal chart
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Unread 01-22-2020, 07:22 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post
Chris Brennan mentions this in that paper linked above:


Manilius is the only ancient author who described an alternate scheme for the joys, where Venus
rejoices in the 10th rather than the 5th, and Saturn in the 4th rather than the 12th. Unfortunately, since Manilius’ text is the only one which contains this alternate scheme, it is unclear whether his
arrangement represents a genuine variant tradition, an error in the textual transmission, or an
idiosyncratic addition of his own. Both the arguments for and against viewing Manilius’ variant as
legitimate have been made by different scholars in the past two decades.


-
I seem to recall a horoscope (a second source besides Manilius, discussed by Deborah Houlding or more probably Dorian Greenbaum) mentioning the 10th as a temple of Venus. Seems to me a legitimate variant, but unpopular, as I mentioned. And most of Hellenistic astrology doesn't survive, Ptolemy and especially Valens reject some popular arguments and astrological systems that literally can't be encountered elsewhere - cf. 1.12, 1.20, 1.21 and 1.22 of the Tetrabiblos. I think it goes without saying that any attempt of historical reconstruction is tentative.

I see no evidence for Brennan and Dykes rationale for the triplicities based on the joys, instead the ancient authors seem to agree that it is based on sect and rulership - cf. Valens' Anthology 2.1 and Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos 1.18. Ptolemy's use of Mars as sole ruler of the Scorpio triplicity is older than him - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...80&postcount=3 Furthermore, the ancient Babylonians had the four triplicities (with the same directions of winds given by Geminus) with four planetary associations that are also used in both versions of Hellenistic triplicities - Aries, Leo and Sagittarius with Jupiter, Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn with Venus, Gemini, Libra and Aquarius with Saturn, Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces with Mars. These or the alternative Hellenistic triplicities (cutting Venus and the third lords) can't be derived from this scheme from the start. Therefore I think this pattern, like the exaltation pattern given by Porphyry, is entirely coincidental.

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
a planet in Joy IS strengthened
when that planet in JOY is located in a CADENT house

and
the accidental debility of cadency is MINIMISED


nevertheless
the EXTENT to which the CADENCY is MINIMISED
is arguable
the main factor is
that a planet in JOY is HAPPIEST in the house of its JOY
more so than in any other house of the natal chart
Interesting, how can the Sun be happier in the 9th than in the 10th with any (be it though minimised) debility?
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Interesting, how can the Sun be happier in the 9th
than in the 10th with any

(be it though minimised)

debility?


Exactly
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Unread 01-22-2020, 07:39 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Exactly
Siriusly
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Unread 01-22-2020, 08:51 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Siriusly
Siriusly to factor in "Joy by Sign"
is even more fun
thus
consider Leo Sun in 9th JOYING by House as well as by Sign
contrasted with
a Sun other than Leo in 9th house
joying solely by House
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
a planet in Joy IS strengthened
when that planet in JOY is located in a CADENT house

and
the accidental debility of cadency is MINIMISED


nevertheless
the EXTENT to which the CADENCY is MINIMISED
is arguable
the main factor is
that a planet in JOY is HAPPIEST in the house of its JOY
more so than in any other house of the natal chart
This summary is pretty much where I'm at in my head with all of this as well
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Unread 01-23-2020, 03:22 AM
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What is the relationship between happiness and power?
Petosiris has implied (or explicitly stated, can’t recall the exact words) that planetary strength and life rank are correlated, and power.
It’s my own opinion that happiness is not connected to the constant exercise of power and consciousness of rank.
There are many ways to experience pleasure that have little to do with either, or in fact have to do with the deliberate absence of either rank or power.
In learning, for example, one is happiest and in flow by adopting an inquisitive, nearly innocent sensibility unafraid of not-knowing. (Thinking of Moon joying in 3h.)
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Unread 01-23-2020, 04:06 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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What is the relationship between happiness and power?
Petosiris has implied (or explicitly stated, can’t recall the exact words) that planetary strength and life rank are correlated, and power.
It’s my own opinion that happiness is not connected to the constant exercise of power and consciousness of rank.
There are many ways to experience pleasure that have little to do with either, or in fact have to do with the deliberate absence of either rank or power.
In learning, for example, one is happiest and in flow by adopting an inquisitive, nearly innocent sensibility unafraid of not-knowing. (Thinking of Moon joying in 3h.)
Since the Sun traditionally rules over dignity, honours and social status, it does matter. I can totally understand the concept of happiness from health (Ascendant), mind (Moon), wealth (Part of Fortune), career (Midheaven) and so on, though astrologers use the concept of dignity in those matters in the same way.
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Unread 01-23-2020, 04:09 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

Uff, having is so much more dignified than grasping, you must have noticed that social trope. But anyway you have not answered the original question.
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Unread 01-23-2020, 04:12 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

Valens and Ptolemy clearly equate fortune of dignity/rank with happiness. It magnifies the things you do and the impact you make on the world, something valued by most world religions - deeds.
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Unread 01-23-2020, 06:55 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Ptolemy recorded lots of thunder-storms in late summer and water at the end of summer. Interestingly this period coincides with 0.00 average rainfall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria#Climate http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/2C*.html#11
I've wondered about this, and I think we've raised this point before.

I'm not clear that Ptolemy was always talking about his local environment. As a geographer as well as an astrology author*, he also wrote extensively about various places, and may have referred to places with more temperate climate regimes in continental Europe where late summer thunder storms would have been common.

I've also wondered about whether precession would make a difference.

*I've got a copy of Ptolemy's tome on geography, most of which consists of cataloging latitudes and longitudes of places in the known world. Cf. with the more empirical Almagest.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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If the transmission is from <the XII Place of the> Good Daimon, <the V Place of> Good Fortune, or
from the Lot of Fortune, and if benefics are in aspect, there will be inheritances, gifts, or a cause of some
good. If the fatal Places transmit to Places which precede the angles or vice-versa, the native will hear of
someone’s death while abroad or as a result of travel. (The four Places which precede the angles serve as
Places of Foreigners and of Slaves.) Likewise in any nativity Gemini and Sagittarius have the same general
effect as the Place of Slaves because of their zodiacal position: when Cancer is in the Ascendant, the Place of
Slaves falls in these signs. So even when a native has the Place of Slaves in another sign, /172P/ but has
malefics in these <Gemini Sagittarius>, he will experience disturbances and injuries from slaves, even
penalties, death, and flight, especially if Saturn is in these Places. If benefics are in these Places, the native
will be thought well of <by slaves> and will receive benefits from them, and he himself will be a benefactor
of slaves, or will indeed raise some, treating them as his children.
- https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

There is no surviving evidence of a Hellenistic astrologer
making the same association between the sixth house and Virgo to my knowledge
Maybe you can substantiate your claim for Gemini = 3rd house with a single quote like this
As I said earlier-- if you look at the thematic content of houses described in different Hellenistic texts, they point to origins in different systems that got compiled without apparent concern for their consistency or completeness.

The topic of slaves, for example, was not always a 6th house matter. They also show up in the 4th (I suppose as patrimony, Hermes,) in the 3rd and the 6th (Valens) in Brennan.

I don't think you have to nail down every last house to make a case for a larger, earlier system if you can identify a majority of the houses showing such an affinity. Because we're left with fragmentary systems compiled together in the surviving texts.

With Virgo, part of the problem is that we don't really know whom she represents. Various goddesses were identified with Virgo in ancient times, notably Demeter/Ceres or her daughter Persephone; more recently, the Virgin Mary. Persephone is a good candidate because in most (but not all ancient myths,) Persephone-- as queen of the dead-- had no children. To the Babylonians, Virgo was called the "furrow" as in a plowed field.

The queen of the dead would also be a reasonable tie into the association of the 6th house with events capable of ending life, such as illness and injury. The joy of Mars in the 6th is interesting because Mars is also associated with dealing in death and injury. His precursor Nergal of Babylon was also a god of drought. Drought is a major theme in the Demeter-Persephone narrative.

On the other hand, the 5th was the temple of Hathor in her manifestation as the mother of Horus. Because the Egyptian Hathor ruled such things as joy and merriment as well as childbirth, the Hellenists assimilated her to Venus.

The Gemini link is quite straightforward, with the authors who identify the 3rd as the house of brothers.
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Unread 01-23-2020, 11:34 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Valens and Ptolemy clearly equate fortune of dignity/rank with happiness. It magnifies the things you do and the impact you make on the world, something valued by most world religions - deeds.
Interestingly Abu Ma'shar puts forth his view of how weak planets are to be interpreted. Weak planets still manifest in the native's life, but not in a way that leaves a marked impact on the world. Weak planets will manifest in the native's thoughts and desires or in their private lives. In a few places he says that weak malefics are more indicative of personal issues in one's private life than they are public, visible events.

So when it comes to a topic like rank, involving your Sun, MC, or MC ruler, I'd say that if reputation is the impact you wish to leave on other people, it's pretty important for those significators to be strong. When it comes to wealth I'd think you'd want the planets to indicate actual, objective experiences of wealth rather than the desire for wealth or the fleeting appearance of wealth.

So like you said, the strength of the significators tied to conventionally positive things are often seen as congruent with happiness because strong planets indicate that the things that you do and experience have more impact and are more easily observable. This goes both ways however, an angular, or otherwise pronounced malefic tied to bad houses is going to create bad things that are obvious to anyone and everyone.

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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I've wondered about this, and I think we've raised this point before.

I'm not clear that Ptolemy was always talking about his local environment. As a geographer as well as an astrology author*, he also wrote extensively about various places, and may have referred to places with more temperate climate regimes in continental Europe where late summer thunder storms would have been common.

I've also wondered about whether precession would make a difference.

*I've got a copy of Ptolemy's tome on geography, most of which consists of cataloging latitudes and longitudes of places in the known world. Cf. with the more empirical Almagest.
Have you considered the possibility that he was an actual meteorologist, who could make particular meteorological predictions for the different regions of the οἰκουμένη (inhabited world)? He treats klimata very generally in 2.2. where he makes an ingenious observation that different klimata have very different weather, people, fauna and flora; as do some specific regions within them by reason of their ''situation, height, lowness, or adjacency''. This seems to suggests that 2.10-12 is to be applied to the general climate in proportion i.e. if the region is a desert that doesn't have any rainfall during certain months, no common amount of astrological influence from the ambient surrounding the sublunar area would be able to change it, as it would for other regions. Interestingly, the astrologers thought that only the particular ambient would influence the newborn, not the sublunar weather at the time - contra De Divinatione 2.45

''But what utter madness in these astrologers, in considering the effect of the vast movements and changes in the heavens, to assume that wind and rain and weather anywhere have no effect at birth! In neighbouring places conditions in these respects are so different that frequently, for instance, we have one state of weather at Tusculum and another at Rome. This is especially noticeable to mariners who often observe extreme changes of weather take place while they rounding the capes. Therefore, in view of the fact that the heavens are now serene and now disturbed by storms, is it the part of a reasonable man to say that this fact has no natal influence — and of course it has not — and then assert that a natal influence is exerted by some subtle, imperceptible, well-nigh inconceivable force which is due to the condition of the sky, which condition, in turn, is due to the action of the moon and stars?''. - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...atione/2*.html
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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As I said earlier-- if you look at the thematic content of houses described in different Hellenistic texts, they point to origins in different systems that got compiled without apparent concern for their consistency or completeness.

The topic of slaves, for example, was not always a 6th house matter. They also show up in the 4th (I suppose as patrimony, Hermes,) in the 3rd and the 6th (Valens) in Brennan.

I don't think you have to nail down every last house to make a case for a larger, earlier system if you can identify a majority of the houses showing such an affinity. Because we're left with fragmentary systems compiled together in the surviving texts.

With Virgo, part of the problem is that we don't really know whom she represents. Various goddesses were identified with Virgo in ancient times, notably Demeter/Ceres or her daughter Persephone; more recently, the Virgin Mary. Persephone is a good candidate because in most (but not all ancient myths,) Persephone-- as queen of the dead-- had no children. To the Babylonians, Virgo was called the "furrow" as in a plowed field.

The queen of the dead would also be a reasonable tie into the association of the 6th house with events capable of ending life, such as illness and injury. The joy of Mars in the 6th is interesting because Mars is also associated with dealing in death and injury. His precursor Nergal of Babylon was also a god of drought. Drought is a major theme in the Demeter-Persephone narrative.

On the other hand, the 5th was the temple of Hathor in her manifestation as the mother of Horus. Because the Egyptian Hathor ruled such things as joy and merriment as well as childbirth, the Hellenists assimilated her to Venus.

The Gemini link is quite straightforward, with the authors who identify the 3rd as the house of brothers.
So what does the barren sign of Leo have to do with children in the 5th?
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Have you considered the possibility that he was an actual meteorologist, who could make particular meteorological predictions for the different regions of the οἰκουμένη (inhabited world)? He treats klimata very generally in 2.2. where he makes an ingenious observation that different klimata have very different weather, people, fauna and flora; as do some specific regions within them by reason of their ''situation, height, lowness, or adjacency''. This seems to suggests that 2.10-12 is to be applied to the general climate in proportion i.e. if the region is a desert that doesn't have any rainfall during certain months, no common amount of astrological influence from the ambient surrounding the sublunar area would be able to change it, as it would for other regions. Interestingly, the astrologers thought that only the particular ambient would influence the newborn, not the sublunar weather at the time - contra De Divinatione 2.45
Ptolemy was clearly a Renaissance man before the Renaissance, or what is also called a polymath. I think his big project was encyclopedic and systematic. Also, back-then, people did not compartmentalize a lot of subjects the way we do today. More properly, Ptolemy's work would be called climatology, not meteorology. Today climatology is often taught as physical geography, a subject that seems to have been one of Ptolemy's special interests.

Quote:
''But what utter madness in these astrologers, in considering the effect of the vast movements and changes in the heavens, to assume that wind and rain and weather anywhere have no effect at birth! In neighbouring places conditions in these respects are so different that frequently, for instance, we have one state of weather at Tusculum and another at Rome. This is especially noticeable to mariners who often observe extreme changes of weather take place while they rounding the capes. Therefore, in view of the fact that the heavens are now serene and now disturbed by storms, is it the part of a reasonable man to say that this fact has no natal influence — and of course it has not — and then assert that a natal influence is exerted by some subtle, imperceptible, well-nigh inconceivable force which is due to the condition of the sky, which condition, in turn, is due to the action of the moon and stars?''. - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...atione/2*.html
Well, Cicero was a big critic of astrology.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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So what does the barren sign of Leo have to do with children in the 5th?
I wrote:
Quote:
As I said earlier-- if you look at the thematic content of houses described in different Hellenistic texts, they point to origins in different systems that got compiled without apparent concern for their consistency or completeness.

.....

I don't think you have to nail down every last house to make a case for a larger, earlier system if you can identify a majority of the houses showing such an affinity. Because we're left with fragmentary systems compiled together in the surviving texts.
Fertile and barren signs were probably a later addition. I don't think they're Egyptian. They hearken to the Aristotelian elements.

But this is actually a decent match. The child here was Horus, the sun god of Egypt in a more juvenile form.

I believe you are familiar with Plutarch, Isis and Osiris. He efficiently explains that Egyptian mythology is vast and often contradictory. But that Egyptians understood their differing myths as more superficial, but each pointing to deeper truths.

Sometimes in Egyptian mythology, the mother of Horus was Isis, but sometimes Hathor. In fact, the hieroglyph for Hathor means "house of Horus." It was often symbolized as a square containing a hawk or falcon, one of the manifestations of the sun-god Horus, probably because hawks could fly so "near" to the sun from an earth-bound perspective.

The Hellenists and Romans assimilated the goddess Hathor to Venus.

Of course, the sun is domiciled in the 5th house.

Let me know if you'd like some references on this.
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Unread 01-24-2020, 08:00 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Ptolemy was clearly a Renaissance man before the Renaissance, or what is also called a polymath. I think his big project was encyclopedic and systematic. Also, back-then, people did not compartmentalize a lot of subjects the way we do today. More properly, Ptolemy's work would be called climatology, not meteorology. Today climatology is often taught as physical geography, a subject that seems to have been one of Ptolemy's special interests.
I highly recommend reading Tetrabiblos 2.10-13 once more.

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Well, Cicero was a big critic of astrology.
It shows that the majority of astrologers in the 1st century BC had no notion of a non-causal model of astrology and did not differ from Ptolemy in astrological physicalism (in the sense we have talked before).

Btw waybread, I recall you being a convert to Judaism. Do you follow the Oral Law (Orthodox/Rabbinic Judaism)? If so, may I ask where you stand on the oral law not to mention the names of idols and certain minim? - https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halac...reign-deities/ Just curious.

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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I highly recommend reading Tetrabiblos 2.10-13 once more.
OK, then what? The joke among cognoscenti is that climatology is like meteorology, it just takes longer. Meteorology deals with explaining weather, and especially forecasting. Climatology deals with long-term trends and larger-scale patterns. Obviously there is a lot of overlap, both then and now. Ptolemy does both, but when he discusses predictable weather recurring patterns, vs. how to judge whether it's going to rain tomorrow, that's climatology.

Especially in 2:10-11, Ptolemy is really discussing climate patterns, based on past experience (or at least, belief.) In 2:13, where he talks about observing whether there is a halo around the moon to predict upcoming storms, that is more like weather forecasting.

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It shows that the majority of astrologers in the 1st century BC had no notion of a non-causal model of astrology and did not differ from Ptolemy in astrological physicalism (in the sense we have talked before).
I agree. I would add that Cicero's issues may not have been determinism per-se, so much as that some of the predictions didn't make sense to him, and seemed patently incorrect.

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Btw waybread, I recall you being a convert to Judaism. Do you follow the Oral Law (Orthodox/Rabbinic Judaism)? If so, may I ask where you stand on the oral law not to mention the names of idols and certain minim? - https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halac...reign-deities/ Just curious.
I think one would have to be a super-strict ultra-orthodox Jew to never mention the name of an idol or foreign god. Of course some well-known medieval Jewish scholars were astrologers, and they used planets' names.

The Jewish Bible certainly mentions foreign gods and idols (written law.) As you know, Orthodox Judaism covers a broad spectrum, from people who embrace many aspects of modernity, to people who are truly trying to sustain the life their ancestors had in a European shtetl. These groups differ in some of their interpretations and practices.

The short answer to your question is that I do not now observe Judaism although I have never renounced it: i.e., I have a secular life.

My ex-husband is Jewish, and when I was married to him I did keep a kosher kitchen and table. We observed the sabbath and the major Jewish holidays, and attended our city's one synagogue. But our lifestyle was more Conservative than Orthodox. Meaning that we observed some key precepts but by no means all of the thousands of rules laid down in the Talmud and subsequent rabbinical commentary. After I separated and divorced (after 20 years of marriage) I became religiously inactive. I re-married, to a man who is a lapsed Anglican.

Among the Jews that I knew when I was religiously active, no one would have been fussed about saying the names of long-ago gods and idols. Observant (but not necessarily ultra-Orthodox) Jews generally do not use the term "Christ" because it does indicate a messiah; but use terms like "Jesus." Because it was forbidden to speak or write the Tetragrammaton (yod-he-vav-he in Hebrew letters,) you don't find many Jews using names for God that are attempts to pronounce it.

I suppose a modern analogy, though it's much weaker, would be considering the traditional names used to address Queen Elizabeth, like "your majesty". I mean, nobody calls her Betty Windsor.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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OK, then what? The joke among cognoscenti is that climatology is like meteorology, it just takes longer. Meteorology deals with explaining weather, and especially forecasting. Climatology deals with long-term trends and larger-scale patterns. Obviously there is a lot of overlap, both then and now. Ptolemy does both, but when he discusses predictable weather recurring patterns, vs. how to judge whether it's going to rain tomorrow, that's climatology.

Especially in 2:10-11, Ptolemy is really discussing climate patterns, based on past experience (or at least, belief.) In 2:13, where he talks about observing whether there is a halo around the moon to predict upcoming storms, that is more like weather forecasting.
What about 2.12 - that chapter clearly includes determination of the weather by day and even hour? ''In every case, however, one should draw his conclusions on the principle that the universal and primary underlying cause takes precedence and that the cause of particular events is secondary to it, and that the force is most ensured and strengthened when the stars which are the lords of the universal natures are configurated with the particular causes.'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/2C*.html#12 - he means that the hourly prediction is made in accordance with the daily, the daily with the weekly, the weekly with the monthly, and the monthly with the seasonal (and it probably with the klime and region).

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''It will then be necessary to determine the rulers of the place of the new moon or full moon and of the angle that follows it, after the fashion explained by us in the preceding sections dealing with eclipses, and thus to judge of the general situation from the special nature of the quarters, and determine the question of degree of intensification and relaxation from the nature of the ruling planets, their qualities, and the kinds of weather which they produce.'' - maybe that is ''climatological'', but it is still different from season to season depending on the ruler
Here is a footnote from Robbins - In the latter part of II.10. Cardanus, pp228‑229, commenting on this chapter, says, after admiring the genius of Ptolemy, "For in this chapter he does five things. In the first place, he has declared the proper nature of each part of the year in general, which is predicted from the new moon or full moon preceding the ingress of the sun to the cardinal point. In the second . . . , the quality of each month from the new or full moon, following the ingress of the sun to the cardinal point. In the third place, he tells us how to know the nature of the weather of the fourth part of each month . . . and this is discovered not only from new moons and full moons but also from the quarters. . . . In the fourth place, he shows us how to recognize each day the quality of the air . . . from the rising or setting of the bright stars. In the fifth he teaches us to learn that same thing hour by hour from the passage of the luminaries through the angles at the time." The "quarters" mentioned by Ptolemy are the quarters of the year, or of the zodiac.

---------------

(Actually, the name of Jesus is Yeshua, and the Rabbis thought that one is not allowed to pronounce that, hence ''Yeshu'' in the Talmud.) Christ means ''anointed'' in Greek (though it is pronounced closer to ''kh'' instead of strong ''k'' and with ''os'' at the end) As you know ''anointed'' can apply to kings, prophets, priests and the messianic son of David in the Tanakh (Septuagint - christos) depending on the context. ''Jesus'' itself is an incorrect English transliteration of the incorrect Latin transliteration of an arguably correct Greek transliteration - Greek does not have the sound ''sh'' and male names end with -s in the nominative - hence the translators behind the Septuagint and the Apostles used ''Iesous'' for ''Joshua'' and ''Jesus''. As you see maybe the name was butchered enough by the transliterations to make it eligible to use by the Jews.

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I suppose a modern analogy, though it's much weaker, would be considering the traditional names used to address Queen Elizabeth, like "your majesty". I mean, nobody calls her Betty Windsor.
- https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...etty%20Windsor

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

Have it your way, Petosiris. I know you're not communicating with me simply to argue.

As I noted, there is a lot of overlap between climatology and meteorology, but also areas where they are distinct. In Ptolemy's day they were not separate.

The point is more whether a weather phenomenon (like a period of heavy winter precipitation) is routine over a given area over a long period of time. It will fluctuate, but unless the climate is changing, it will fluctuate around some kind of mean. (Climatologists tend to work with 30-year averages, to iron out occasional anomalies.) I am truly uninterested in dissecting Ptolemy to distinguish minutia. However, when Ptolemy says, "one should draw his conclusions on the principle that the universal and primary underlying cause takes precedence," this sounds more like climatology. When he said, "the cause of particular events is secondary to it, and that the force is most ensured and strengthened when the stars which are the lords of the universal natures are configurated with the particular causes.'' that sounds more like weather forecasting. But the underlying principles don't change in Ptolemy's system. In contrast, today meteorologists are always looking for better forecasting tools.

If we ask, will it rain tomorrow? That's more like meteorology. If we ask, does this city normally get a lot of rain in January, that's climatology.

The art of determining regular seasonal weather changes from a stellar calendar is ancient and pre-dates the introduction of astrology to ancient Greece. See Hesiod, Works and Days, ca. 700 BCE. Aratus, Phaenomena, 3rd Century BC might have known some astrology but it doesn't appear in his book on constellation and weather patterns. (Cf. ancient Egyptians predicting the Nile flood from the stellar calendar thousands of years ago.)

My main field of interest during my working life was the environment from an interdisciplinary cultural perspective, whereas Robbins was a classicist. This doesn't make me an expert but I think I know more than he did in 1940.

The Jewish people I have known were not terribly interested in Jesus-- probably due to a terrible history of persecution in his name. They generally used the regular English version of his name, which is still the one in common usage.

Back to planetary joys and cadent houses?
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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The art of determining regular seasonal weather changes from a stellar calendar is ancient and pre-dates the introduction of astrology to ancient Greece. See Hesiod, Works and Days, ca. 700 BCE. Aratus, Phaenomena, 3rd Century BC might have known some astrology but it doesn't appear in his book on constellation and weather patterns. (Cf. ancient Egyptians predicting the Nile flood from the stellar calendar thousands of years ago.)
Sure. Ptolemy himself had a book on the ''Phases of the fixed stars'', Robert Schmidt did a translation of it in 1993. This book contains the Egyptian calendar dates of heliacal phases of the brightest stars for different cities/latitudes and the weather the people there should expect (probably on average). This parapegmatic method is indeed found in many ancient authors and nations. But I wanted to remind you that his seasonal, monthly and weekly procedures are not parapegmatic - first because the angles (and the topocentric Moon) significantly differ for each latitude and longitude, and second because of their different possible rulers with different placements from one season/month/week to the next season/month/week. This clearly can't be classified as climatological, as it implies differentiation i.e. ''intensification or relaxation'' (I think he means of heat and moisture) of the ''general situation from the special nature of the quarters'', the second which is proper climatology along with the daily parapegmatic procedure afaik.

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Back to planetary joys and cadent houses?
Sure, though I am not sure someone is going to further help the OP and I am afraid this board is going to go into hibernation again.

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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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a planet in Joy IS strengthened
when that planet in JOY is located in a CADENT house

and
the accidental debility of cadency is MINIMISED

nevertheless
the EXTENT to which the CADENCY is MINIMISED
is arguable
the main factor is
that a planet in JOY is HAPPIEST in the house of its JOY
more so than in any other house of the natal chart
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post

This summary
is pretty much where I'm at in my head with all of this as well
a few clues
The word 'CADENT' means 'FALLEN'
and is the root of
the word CADAVAR meaning CORPSE.

A planet in a cadent house has been carried by the diurnal movement
away from the cardinal position,

symbolising something that has moved from a position of power
into a condition of weakness,
or
a fall from grace





http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1d.html

and
certain specific planets JOY in certain specific CADENT HOUSES

for example
according to ROBERT SCHMIDT died December 2018
one of the founder member of Project Hindisht

http://www.projecthindsight.com
SATURN nature is to REJECT and EXCLUDE
and
traditionally, 12th house is
a wholly unfortunate house, associated with sad events
sorrow, anguish of mind, tribulation
captivity, imprisonment, persecution
hard labour, all manner of affliction and self-undoing.
Its significations include secret, unknown enemies
such men as maliciously undermine their neighbours
or inform secretly against them: traitors, spies

weakness, infirmity and bondage
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h12.html
traditionally

SATURN finds JOY in 12th house



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