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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #51  
Unread 01-19-2020, 11:28 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Jupiter Ascendant, It's not necessary to be the vocabulary police here. Wouldn't you call Chris Brennan, noted Hellenistic astrologer, "traditional?" Here's what he said on p. 298 of his book Hellenistic Astrology:
"...the concepts of the semi-sextile and quincunx aspects of modern astrology were never developed in the Hellenistic tradition, because these intervals were characterized by their lack of affinity..."

[deleted attacking comment - Moderator] use modern terms to make a traditional point more understandable.

Brennan here was making a point in his mention of the "non-Ptolemaic" aspects, as I was. Basically if houses don't share one of the Big Four aspects, this says something about their inability to coordinate within the horoscope. This is worth knowing about. (p. 298) For example, it is probably better if a malefic cannot "regard" a beneficial planet, because the malefic's influence is weakened by its position.

I would point out that the words "aversion" and "disregard" are English, whereas the astrologer authors of the Hellenistic period were writing in Greek and Latin. The English language did not exist during the Hellenistic period. So we are looking at approximate translations.

If we look at the English language translations of classical scholars, we find that Ptolemy doesn't even use "aversion" in Tetrabiblos 1:13, preferring simply to talk about the aspects of the opposition, trine, square, and sextile. Then he's got some material on other relationships between signs. However, in 1:16 "Of Disjunct Signs" he calls signs without "familiarities" with one another "disjunct" and "alien."

Chris Brennan, in his comprehensive Hellenistic Astrology, typically translates the Greek word apostrophe as "aversion," but also mentions its concise meaning of "turning away" from something. As such, apostrophe may not carry the connotation of repugnance meant by the English word "aversion," as we are simply talking about geometric relationships between signs and planets within signs and houses.

Brennan's chapter 9 on "the doctrine of configurations" is well worth reading.
The key word take-aways from Brennan on geometric relationships are "witnessing," "testimony," "observing," and "scrutinizing," He wrote (p. 293) ...in the Hellenistic tradition, aspects were conceptualized as the means by which planets could see or not see each other. The aspect doctrine then is partially based on ancient Greek optical theories...." He points out that the Latin root of our English word "aspect" is "seeing, looking at."

Accordingly, a conjunction was not technically an aspect, because conjoined planets could not properly behold one another; although the conjunction was often used as though it were a proper Hellenistic aspect.

Then we get into a more sign-based interpretation of affinities, according to a sign's gender, quadruplicity, element.
to be clear then

vis a vis the term aversion: "αποστροφή"
Factually
in Greek
the etymology backing this word today
has a negative meaning
for example
turning the head away from some despised person
is an aversion
something is repellent in some way


In Ancient Greek it is an exclamatory figure of speech
that occurs when a speaker suddenly ceases addressing their audience
and directs their comment to a third party
such as for example an opposing litigant
or some other individual who may be absent from the scene

therefore
in fact the word aversion as a technical term in astrology
implies
that something is out of our line of vision
thus planets are in aversion when in signs not configured to each other
by any of the five Ptolemaic aspects
conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition

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  #52  
Unread 01-20-2020, 05:59 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
I said I didn't want to hijack this thread and now look where I am.



Ehhh not necessarily. To be clear when I say houses, I mean the topical meanings applied to the houses, not the houses themselves as defined by angularity and aspect to the Ascendant. For example if you ask a question about wealth and the Lord of the Ascendant is applying to a planet in one of the cadent houses and that planet also rules a house in aversion to the Ascendant, you have your answer right there without applying any house meanings. The significator applying to a well placed angular benefic that rules an angle is positive regardless of house meanings. This isn't strictly traditional, but it goes to show how questions can be answered without relying on house meanings.

It is indeed true that later horary forces you to pick a house for the quesited, but authors like Mashallah place more weight on the condition of the Lord of the Asc/Moon and their next aspect than house meanings. He eventually does add house meanings as a bit of another layer, but in laying down his baseline method in On Reception, very little is made of picking the house of the quesited before hand.

As far as mundane astrology goes, the same thing applies. Ptolemy only uses houses within his mundane astrology in regards to angularity. Even Persian Mundane astrology can be done without recourse to house meanings. Find the Lord of the Year and analyze their condition, look at what planets are angular and their condition, etc. etc.

Electional astrology can certainly be done without house meanings, as demonstrated by Dorotheus. I don't know anywhere close to enough about medical astrology to have an opinion either way.

So I'd agree that house meanings are important to some authors, especially as the tradition went along, but it is possible to get useful information in horary and mundane without necessarily using the topics assigned to the houses. I would say that if one is to use topics as applied to the houses, one should make sure that it makes sense within the context of angularity and aspect to the Ascendant.
From Petosiris:
Quote:
The problem with explaining the seven planetary joys via house meanings is that you run into circular reasoning. It is much more likely that the house meanings came second after the joys were placed there.
As I mentioned in a previous post, there is some evidence that the origins of thematic house meanings are from Egyptian mythology about the passage of the deified sun, both through the daylight hours and through the night, with the parallel meaning of the passage of a human soul through life and afterlife. The exact order of the different gates and temples through which the sun/soul passed changed somewhat over time, but there is no doubt that Egyptian mythology predated Hellenistic astrology-- by several millennia.

(Joanne Conman http://www.joanneconman.com/ argued that the ancient Egyptians did not believe in an underworld, as did the Greeks and Romans; but had a schema that was more horizontal. Which accords with the horoscope angles also representing cardinal directions. Although she disputes this, there is evidence that the northern constellation Orion symbolized Osiris.)

Otto Neugebauer, Brown University historian of ancient astronomy/astrology, and his associates translated Roman-era Demotic horoscopes found in Egypt. (Micah Ross has recently updated Neugebauer's research http://www.cultureandcosmos.org/pdfs...exts_Vol11.pdf ) They found that some of the horoscopes retained the ancient Egyptian mythology. The 4th house, for example, termed the "dwat" or "duat," was the Egyptian hall of Osiris, where the dead went to be judged.

I won't go into further details unless you're interested, but basically the translation of the duat/4th house as one's father probably stemmed from the Egyptian belief that here the righteous soul assimilated to the divine Father as symbolized by Osiris.

The second house as "the gates of hell" was where the deified sun/soul prepared to exit the afterlife and return to day/life, as a kind of casting-up. This was also where the goddess provided him with the necessities of life.

The 8th as the traditional house of death relates to the Egyptian environment in ways that might be hard for people in temperate climates to understand. Basically the sun peaks in the sky at noon, but the hottest part of the day actually happens in mid-late afternoon. If you've spent time in a hot desert climate, you realize that this time of day can be death-dealing to the unprepared. Sunset (7th house) may be welcomed for bringing cooler temperatures.

Anyway, the Egyptian thematic meanings were probably based in their religious beliefs. It is interesting that Firmicus Maternus hints at parts of astrology being based in religious secrets.

Of course, this all maps onto the themes of angular, cadent, succedent, and cadent houses.
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Unread 01-20-2020, 03:36 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

I think that the warmest part of the day in most temperate regions is the Sun in the 9th house, not the 10th or 8th. The ancients accounted for seasonal lag with Leo, they could have accounted for the diurnal lag with the 9th house.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I think that the warmest part of the day in most temperate regions is the Sun in the 9th house, not the 10th or 8th. The ancients accounted for seasonal lag with Leo, they could have accounted for the diurnal lag with the 9th house.
What part of the world where even logic does not apply is that? Sun in 8th is totally when it’s hottest.
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Unread 01-20-2020, 08:18 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post

The Moon joys in the 3rd
Mars joys in the 6th

The Sun joys in the 9th

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

I think that the warmest part of the day in most temperate regions
is the Sun in the 9th house,

not the 10th or 8th.

The ancients accounted for seasonal lag with Leo, they could have accounted for the diurnal lag

with the 9th house.
Saturn joys in the 12th
These are all cadent houses, infact they are all of the cadent houses. Cadent houses are the only house quadruplicity to have a planet in it's joy in every house.
Yet cadent houses are considered weak, why would these be the best places for these planets to be?

e.g. is the Sun strengthened by being in the house of it's joy

or weakened by being in a cadent house,

how does one reconcile the two concepts?
that above quoted recent comment by petosiris throws light on Sun 9th Joy
i.e.
to be clear

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

I think that the warmest part of the day in most temperate regions
is the Sun in the 9th house,

not the 10th or 8th.

The ancients accounted for seasonal lag with Leo, they could have accounted for the diurnal lag

with the 9th house.
clearly there is no black and white
not in astrology

and not in "real life"
thus

if a planet is cadent but also in JOY
that planet is simply IN A MARGINALLY BETTER STATE
than
if that planet were cadent in one of the other cadent houses
that ARE NOT that planets JOY
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Unread 01-20-2020, 08:49 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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What part of the world where even logic does not apply is that? Sun in 8th is totally when it’s hottest.
The cusp of the 9th is definitely warmer than the cusp of the 8th during summer where I live, but I think you are right for winter. I don't know how it works in the desert.

But compare with another region in summer - https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/.../sydney/hourly

Quote:
Just as the hottest days of summer don't happen until after the summer solstice, high temperatures don't usually happen until the late afternoon — typically 3 to 4 p.m. local time. By this time, the sun's heat has built up since noon and more heat is present at the surface than is leaving it. After 3 to 4 p.m., the sun sits low enough in the sky for the amount of outgoing heat to be greater than that incoming, and so temperatures begin to cool. - https://www.thoughtco.com/high-and-l...timing-3444247
3 to 4 is 8th house, so on average you might be right. Excuse me, I am an illogical moron.

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Unread 01-20-2020, 09:11 PM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
if a planet is cadent but also in JOY
that planet is simply IN A MARGINALLY BETTER STATE
than
if that planet were cadent in one of the other cadent houses
that ARE NOT that planets JOY
That doesn't seem to be the standard view of a planet in it's joy, that it's simply in a "marginally better state" than if it were in a random cadent house.

Quote from the Skyscript glossary:

Quote:
House of joy - the house where each of the traditional planets is assumed especially strong

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/house_of_joy.html
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post

That doesn't seem to
be the standard view of a planet in it's joy,
that it's simply in a "marginally better state"
than if it were in a random cadent house.
Quote from the Skyscript glossary:
Quote:
House of joy - the house where each of the traditional planets is assumed especially strong

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/house_of_joy.html
define "assumed especially strong"
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
define "assumed especially strong"
Exactly + 2 according to Johannes Schöner - http://www.skyscript.co.uk/schoener_dignity_scores.pdf
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
define "assumed especially strong"
I 'assume' it means "believed to be" ... [especially strong]
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post


I 'assume' it means "believed to be" ... [especially strong]
+2 apparently counters that assumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Exactly + 2 according to Johannes Schöner - http://www.skyscript.co.uk/schoener_dignity_scores.pdf
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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+2 apparently counters that assumption
Debrah Houlding is a respected traditional astrologer, was an editor of a traditional astrology magazine and is principle of some traditional astrology school. Would you say she's misguided in her description of planets in their joy being "especially strong"?

I'm no expert myself.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post

Debrah Houlding is a respected traditional astrologer, was
an editor of a traditional astrology magazine
and is principle of some traditional astrology school.
Would you say she's misguided
in her description of planets in their joy being "especially strong"?

I'm no expert myself
.
I'm no expert either
skyscript aka skyscrawl has a forum
so it is possible to ask Debrah Houlding
to define exactly her meaning
if that is what you would like to do
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I'm no expert either
skyscript aka skyscrawl has a forum
so it is possible to ask Debrah Houlding
to define exactly her meaning
if that is what you would like to do
Yeah, that's a good idea though I don't think she participates in the forum anymore.

I ran across this thread where a user was sharing some of their insights. Though they're no expert either they have some interesting ideas...

quote:

Quote:
Sun in the 9th house (trine to ascendant and in the house of his Joy) is definitely more favourable than sun in the 10th house but sun in the 10th house is more powerful (angular!) than sun in the 9th house (cadent house � or house where the power of the sun is turned away from native).

....

It is sometimes difficult for astrologers to differentiate these subtleties. Sometime we say that a planet is very good (favourable) when what we really mean is the planet is very powerful (a matter of strength not favourability).
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

Deb is making a qualitative vs quantitative differentiation, as I noted on the previous page with the joys being imbedded with the house meanings in Valens. But I noted that he uses the same term for many placements in the 10th.

Furthermore, I am not sure if such difference like between essential and accidental dignity really existed in Hellenistic astrology - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...9&postcount=10 I would like to see one share an example of that (not in general, as in dignified planets giving good stuff as rulers, but under the specified conditions in that post- like does a favourable Sun in 9th bring more rank than an afflicted powerful Sun in 10th?).

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Unread 01-21-2020, 05:32 AM
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I think that the warmest part of the day in most temperate regions is the Sun in the 9th house, not the 10th or 8th. The ancients accounted for seasonal lag with Leo, they could have accounted for the diurnal lag with the 9th house.
Our friends Ptolemy and Valens would have been intimately familiar with weather and climate patterns in and around Alexandria, Egypt. Ditto for the ancient Egyptians who probably invented the astrological houses--based on their lived experiences of their environments.

Although Egypt would have been labeled as part of the temperate zone by the Hellenists, Ptolemy was also a geographer. He would have understood differences between the climate of the Mediterranean perimeter, the interior of Europe, and the hot desert of the Near East.

Let's look at climate graphs for, say, Alexandria Egypt. The reason for the significant lag in peak daily temperatures immediatetely after 12:00 noon is because the earth is heated from the surface by re-radiation; not directly from incoming solar radiation. After the cool part of the night and early morning, it takes a while for the surface to warm up.

Let's look at the 3rd graph on this website, titled "Average hourly temperature": https://weatherspark.com/y/95917/Ave...ypt-Year-Round

We can see that the hot part of the day is from about 2:00 to 5:00 pm. If the MC symbolizes the highest point of the sun in the sky at noon, depending upon the time of year, the sun would be in the 8th house during the afternoon heat.

On a monthly basis the hot part of the year also happens in August, not at the summer solstice. At the time of the summer solstice, the northern hemisphere is still coming out of the cooler part of the year. I'm not sure how precession would figure into this, going back 2000 years.

Alexandria has a Mediterranean type of climate, with rainy winters and rainless summers. The rest of the country's climate qualifies as hot desert.

I've spent a lot of time in the Mojave and Utah deserts in the US, and the hot part of the day is definitely mid- to late-afternoon, notably in summer. Heat exhaustion, dehydration, and heat stroke are real dangers for the unprepared. The heat of the day can be a source of death to some. Cf. the Spanish siesta in the afternoon, where cities really come to life again after sundown.

As much as I prefer to distinguish between signs and houses, there is some evidence of one (of several) house systems that identified the houses' thematic contents with the zodiac signs. For example, the cadent third house is sometimes called the house of brothers. This bears little resemblance to the goddess or to the moon joying in the 3rd house, but it relates a lot to the third sign of Gemini.

I think we see something similar with the 8th house as the house of death and a relationship with scorpions.

This is an interesting article about the scorpion in ancient Egypt, and its death symbolism. The author is Egyptian: https://mds.marshall.edu/cgi/viewcon...ext=euscorpius He talks about the scorpion goddess Serqet, who accompanies the dead.

Another example of the relationship between a (cadent) house meaning and the local environment is in Ptolemy, in sec. III.10 on length of life. Ptolemy mentions the 12th as the "House of the Evil Daemon," but ever the rationalist, he attributes the period just after sunrise has having "thick misty exhalation form the moisture of the earth" and atmospheric turbidity.

I spent a lot of time Googling "sunrise on the Nile," and came up with pictures like the following, which seem to bear him out.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sunrise-over-the-nile-river-kenneth-garrett.jpg (20.3 KB, 8 views)
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Beautifully written post, waybread.
It is such a mystery to me why the 12th house, after the sun’s rise, collects so much negativity - your explanation is an excellent one. Would the signification be the same in a land with a more crisp post-dawn landscape?
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

It's hard to say, passiflora, because the pre-horoscopic origins of astrology appear to be in ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt. Certainly star lore (cultural astronomy) was very different in different locations.

It is interesting that Manilius (1st century CE) said the 12th house belonged to Typhon, the evil god of storms from whom we get our word "typhoon." The Hellenists generally called the 12th house "the house of the evil spirit."

In ancient Egypt the evil god of dust- and sand-storms was Seth (Set,) engaged in a constant battle with the sun. A major sandstorm can obscure the sun.

This article gives some idea of the significance of these sandstorms in the Near East (the winds causing them are locally called Hamsin, or Khamsin-- the H sound is gutteral.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khamsin

More generally, to ancient Egyptians, order and regularity were good. Disorder was bad. Seth more broadly symbolized the forces of disorder.

In traditional astrology, Saturn doesn't rule everything bad, but he rules a lot of it. Astrologically his joy in the 12th house seems appropriate to phenomena that obscure the sun when it is above the horizon.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Of the part above the earth it is not fitting to consider either the sign that is disjunct from the ascendant, nor that which rose before it, called the House of the Evil Daemon, because it injures the emanation from the stars in it to the earth and is also declining, and the thick, misty exhalation from the moisture of the earth creates such a turbidity and, as it were, obscurity, that the stars do not appear in either their true colours or magnitudes. - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/3B*.html#10
Fascinating story. But the Sun, the Moon and the five planets do not appear in either their true colours or magnitudes on the eastern and western horizon worldwide.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Our friends Ptolemy and Valens would have been intimately familiar with weather and climate patterns in and around Alexandria, Egypt. Ditto for the ancient Egyptians who probably invented the astrological houses--based on their lived experiences of their environments.
Ptolemy recorded lots of thunder-storms in late summer and water at the end of summer. Interestingly this period coincides with 0.00 average rainfall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria#Climate http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/2C*.html#11
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post


The Moon joys in the 3rd


Mars joys in the 6th
The Sun joys in the 9th
Saturn joys in the 12th

These are all cadent houses, infact they are all of the cadent houses.

Cadent houses are the only house quadruplicity to have a planet in it's joy in every house.
Yet cadent houses are considered weak, why would these be the best places for these planets to be? e.g. is the Sun strengthened by being in the house of it's joy or weakened by being in a cadent house, how does one reconcile the two concepts?
Not much if anything on JOYS in ancient texts

'....Venus rejoices in the 5th house
because it is the house of joy and delight and dancing
and she signifies this
therefore she rejoices in it
because the rest of the houses do not signify this....' BONATTI
the inference seems to be
that JOY houses have analogy with the planet
and no other house has that analogy
and
A planet that has an analogy with the house
is more certain to bring about the promise
or potential of that house.
But
JOY clearly outweighed by SIGN and ASPECTS.
i.e.
Venus in Aries in 5th
is not the same as
Venus in Libra in 5th
and both are different from
Venus in Pisces in 5th
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Our friends Ptolemy and Valens...

As much as I prefer to distinguish between signs and houses, there is some evidence of one (of several) house systems that identified the houses' thematic contents with the zodiac signs. For example, the cadent third house is sometimes called the house of brothers. This bears little resemblance to the goddess or to the moon joying in the 3rd house, but it relates a lot to the third sign of Gemini.
Indubitably, but our mutual friend Valens actually used another sign = house division.

If the transmission is from <the XII Place of the> Good Daimon, <the V Place of> Good Fortune, or
from the Lot of Fortune, and if benefics are in aspect, there will be inheritances, gifts, or a cause of some
good. If the fatal Places transmit to Places which precede the angles or vice-versa, the native will hear of
someone’s death while abroad or as a result of travel. (The four Places which precede the angles serve as
Places of Foreigners and of Slaves.) Likewise in any nativity Gemini and Sagittarius have the same general
effect as the Place of Slaves because of their zodiacal position: when Cancer is in the Ascendant, the Place of
Slaves falls in these signs. So even when a native has the Place of Slaves in another sign, /172P/ but has
malefics in these <Gemini Sagittarius>, he will experience disturbances and injuries from slaves, even
penalties, death, and flight, especially if Saturn is in these Places. If benefics are in these Places, the native
will be thought well of <by slaves> and will receive benefits from them, and he himself will be a benefactor
of slaves, or will indeed raise some, treating them as his children.
- https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

There is no surviving evidence of a Hellenistic astrologer
making the same association between the sixth house and Virgo to my knowledge
Maybe you can substantiate your claim for Gemini = 3rd house with a single quote like this
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Not much if anything on JOYS in ancient texts

'....Venus rejoices in the 5th house
[COLOR=Navy][B] because it is the house of joy and delight and dancing
and she signifies this
therefore she rejoices in it
because the rest of the houses do not signify this....' BONATTI

Though as was mentioned before, many of the meanings of the houses may have actually derived from the joys.

Chris Brennan:

Quote:
This close association between the meaning of the names of certain houses and the astrological meaning of the planets that have their joys in the same places seems to imply a relationship between the two concepts. This connection can be confirmed by the 4th century astrologer Firmicus Maternus, who at one point in the introductory material of his Mathesis says that the 5th house “is called the Good Fortune, because it is the house of Venus.” Similarly, he says that the 6th is called Bad Fortune “…because it is the house of Mars.” [https://www.hellenisticastrology.com...tary-joys.pdf]


Quote:
But
JOY clearly outweighed by SIGN and ASPECTS.
i.e.
Venus in Aries in 5th
is not the same as
Venus in Libra in 5th
and both are different from
Venus in Pisces in 5th

Of course, that was never a concern of mine. What I really wanted to figure out is if/how the joys override the weakness of cadency. I think I'm starting to get a better understanding though from some of the replies here and on skyscript, still not 100% on it though.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I would like to see one share an example of that (not in general, as in dignified planets giving good stuff as rulers, but under the specified conditions in that post- like does a favourable Sun in 9th bring more rank than an afflicted powerful Sun in 10th?).
I'd like to see that too if anyone manages to find anything.
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Re: Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

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5. The Sects of the Stars.
It is necessary to examine the sects of the stars: for day births the sun, Jupiter, and Saturn rejoice above the earth; for night births, below the earth. For night births the moon, Mars, and Venus rejoice above the earth; for day births below the earth. Mercury rejoices according to the sect of the houseruler in whose terms the star is located. Consequently for day births, if a nativity is found to have Jupiter, the sun, or Saturn favorably configured above the earth, this will be better than having them below the earth. Likewise <for night births> it is advantageous if the nocturnal stars are found above the earth. Venus particularly rejoices when in the Ascendant or at MC; the rest rejoice in the Ascendant or Descendant. - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
The same term (rejoicing) is used as for the seven planetary joys. The last sentence is particularly interesting, and may allude to some alternate arrangements by some Hellenistic astrologers - Manilius assigns Saturn to the 4th, and Venus to the 10th (I vaguely remember the latter being discussed in a surviving Hellenistic horoscope either by Deborah Houlding or Dorian Greenbaum). These arrangements of course more uncommon than the traditional joys.
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