Donald Trump will be impeached.

david starling

Well-known member
Sure, they are harmful, no one denies that. I'm saying its interesting that the biggest cause of air pollution, are the activities of normal inhabitants.

Furthermore if you add all the rest, they also come from the public, such as on road vehicles.

Should you tax and regulate californians because of it?

We are being taxed and regulated for it.

Road vehicles and pollution caused by generating electricity are part of the Petrochemical pollution that causes the most damage. If we treat corporations as sacred cows that can't be taxed and fined, there's no control over the damage they're doing to our overall health.

New technology can help, but new methods need public support, which can only be effective through collective efforts, which have to include our elected representatives. And, to the extent that these new methods cut into the profits of established corporations, the legislators they already have in their pockets will vote against them.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Thats why unions exist, so all the workers can negotiate better conditions and more benefits. In a sense this is how most working conditions got improved overtime in most of the western world.

If a corporation damages the environment, then the public should not purchase its products, and then take the corporation to court. If corporations are both liable and risk their market share for such actions, most corporations would stop doing such things.

In the current system, corporations simply bribe politicians, who provide protection. If the goverment wasn't involved at all, it would be up to public opinion. So not only you don't need the goverment, it would be much more effective way of keeping corporations in check.

The Unions have lost most of their power, thanks to the concerted efforts of the big corporations through their paid lobbyists and the many legislators who rely on them for their re-election.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
The Unions have lost most of their power, thanks to the concerted efforts of the big corporations through their paid lobbyists and the many legislators who rely on them for their re-election.
So you are saying goverment is the reason why workers are unable to properly bargain better conditions, because goverment involves itself to defend corporations.

Then wouldn't the solution be to keep goverment out of it?
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
We are being taxed and regulated for it.

Road vehicles and pollution caused by generating electricity are part of the Petrochemical pollution that causes the most damage. If we treat corporations as sacred cows that can't be taxed and fined, there's no control over the damage they're doing to our overall health.

New technology can help, but new methods need public support, which can only be effective through collective efforts, which have to include our elected representatives. And, to the extent that these new methods cut into the profits of established corporations, the legislators they already have in their pockets will vote against them.
But it is the general public who uses cars. If everyone used bicycles, you wouldn't have this problem.

So do you think that taxing the public, the average blue collar worker, is a good method to stop pollution? I mean they are at large responsible too, far more than corporations, but I believe that taxing them for those products is harming them.
 

david starling

Well-known member
But it is the general public who uses cars. If everyone used bicycles, you wouldn't have this problem.

So do you think that taxing the public, the average blue collar worker, is a good method to stop pollution? I mean they are at large responsible too, far more than corporations, but I believe that taxing them for those products is harming them.

You raise some really good points. We need a government that is actively seeking solutions to these problems, and giving support to private companies that are addressing them. Otherwise, the established corporations will continue on with their polluting ways, and currently have the Trumpolluter on their side.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Thanks David.

That wiki chart is strange. It doesn’t distinguish residential wood burning from industrial wood burning. In my California city you can’t build a new wood burning fireplace in your home, but restaurants can run massive wood burners almost constantly. Anyway it’s a chart from 2005, so not representative.
California also has more stringent emissions requirements than the rest of the country, greatly necessary here, but Trump has been working to undercut those requirements. Bad government working against good government.
The city where I live recently released a hilarious traffic study that blamed UPS drivers for most of the increase in local traffic -leaving Uber and Lyft, the patently obvious culprits, out of it. Uber is HQd in said city so laughable, but disgusting. Terrible self-destructiveness — what we need is better public transport, not the brand name of Uber (whose tax bill is quite discounted).

There are many informal models of mutual support that predate the twentieth century, they are a bit more common in more communal cultures. These are social models first and foremost. Defining governance according to an economy rather than a society changes the nature of the conversation entirely.

I still feel you are being a bit idealistic about corporate governance and accountability Dirius. Do you work in a corporation?

If people want to live under communal system similar to socialism they can, and personally I have no problem with that. Its a matter of consent and free will: you can't force people and go against their individual rights, but capitalism is so great that a group of people can form their own socialist club and live according to its precepts. The economy is the bloodline of a society and it is the main way in which we interact with each other and allows us to survive.

The market its determined by what the public wants: if people don't want products that harm the environment, then companies would adapt; the problem is most people do prefer them because they are cheap. So obviously such level of freedom would require a total liberasation of the economy, ergo taxation being as low as possibl, and a shift in perspective.

I work for an accounting firm in my country Argentina, so I know how much people are truly taxed here under our socialist system. If you add on all the small taxes we have, about 55% for the poorest people, and about 75% for the richest. Not to mention massive inflation and restriction for currency exchange. We happen to have a very high rate of unemployment and poverty.

You live in california, one of the most "socialist" states in the U.S. How is the economy there? is high taxation working well? There is no such thing as good or bad goverment. Goverment has one role only, which is to enforce and protect your rights as citizens.
 

SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
You raise some really good points. We need a government that is actively seeking solutions to these problems, and giving support to private companies that are addressing them. Otherwise, the established corporations will continue on with their polluting ways, and currently have the Trumpolluter on their side.

The environment had been changing forever, bro.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
If people want to live under communal system similar to socialism they can, and personally I have no problem with that. Its a matter of consent and free will: you can't force people and go against their individual rights, but capitalism is so great that a group of people can form their own socialist club and live according to its precepts. .

That has nothing to do with capitalism, that is due to the fact we have a constitution... and also, that as citizens we are armed to the teeth.

There is no such thing as good or bad goverment. Goverment has one role only, which is to enforce and protect your rights as citizens.

There's no such thing as "goverment", period.
If we were talking about 'government', then, yes, that is the way it was set up and intended to remain... and that's the problem.

When it has grown to the size it presently is and takes power away from the States, takes the rights of the States away for itself... THAT"S BAD GOVERNMENT
 

Dirius

Well-known member
That has nothing to do with capitalism, that is due to the fact we have a constitution... and also, that as citizens we are armed to the teeth.
I never said that the reason you can live the way you choose is because of living in a capitalist society. What I was trying to say is that:

you can have your own private communal socialist system, under a capitalist economy and make it work.

you can't have your own private free trade capitalist system, under a socialist economy, because it wouldn't work.

And that has nothing to do with having a constitution, because many countries have experienced both systems with or without one. I agree your constitution is at large the main reason you can better protect yourself from the goverment. Even if you had a constitution, you can't have the latter under socialism.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Yeah, well, Obama gave control of the FDA to Monsanto when He was in the office... so, what's the difference?

My advice is, become a vegetarian.

Obama was better on clean air and water, and wilderness protection. I was shocked that he was so cozy with Monsanto--made me think a lot less of him. At least he didn't authorize bee-killing pesticides.
If you're a vegetarian, you still have to watch out for the GMOs Monsanto creates. Go organic, whenever possible.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I never said that the reason you can live the way you choose is because of living in a capitalist society. What I was trying to say is that:

you can have your own private communal socialist system, under a capitalist economy and make it work.

you can't have your own private free trade capitalist system, under a socialist economy, because it wouldn't work.

And that has nothing to do with having a constitution, because many countries have experienced both systems with or without one. I agree your constitution is at large the main reason you can better protect yourself from the goverment. Even if you had a constitution, you can't have the latter under socialism.

Capitalism is the engine of our economy. Like a gasoline engine (since it's petroleum-based) it requires a regulator, a distributor, and pollution control equipment.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
I never said that the reason you can live the way you choose is because of living in a capitalist society. What I was trying to say is that:

you can have your own private communal socialist system, under a capitalist economy and make it work.

you can't have your own private free trade capitalist system, under a socialist economy, because it wouldn't work.

And that has nothing to do with having a constitution, because many countries have experienced both systems with or without one. I agree your constitution is at large the main reason you can better protect yourself from the goverment. Even if you had a constitution, you can't have the latter under socialism.

Again, there's no such thing a a "goverment". If we were talking about a "G O V E R N M E N T, then I have to ask you... are you saying that We, the people, the citizens of these United States, would be unable to protect ourselves if we became a socialistic society, if our goverNment were to become socialistic that We couldn't protect ourselves from the goverNment?

Wow, are you ever naive about us Yanks...

The problem with you Argentinian's is that there were so many Nazi's that relocated there after W.W. II and corrupted your own goverment [sic] that you only see the world as being either black or white.

Wake up an smell the coffee... it's Colombian, would you like a cup? One lump or two?
Italian roast, perhaps? It's Mussolini free....!:biggrin:
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Again, there's no such thing a a "goverment". If we were talking about a "G O V E R N M E N T, then I have to ask you... are you saying that We, the people, the citizens of these United States, would be unable to protect ourselves if we became a socialistic society, if our goverNment were to become socialistic that We couldn't protect ourselves from the goverNment?

I think its the other way around mate. Last time I checked, most socialists in your country oppose the majority of your rights, such as the right to bear arms. So I can only assume that if you apply socialism, most of your rights would slowly go away. Its just the logical step, making the answer to your question, pretty obvious. A constitution is only good as long as people respect it. Aside from that its just a piece of paper.

In my country we have a constitution which was an adaptation of the U.S. constitution. And we had a similar republican system. Only lasted while politicians respected it, eventually no one really cared. The Arg constitution is trampled every single day.

In fact aren't there already laws to, for example, take away your guns?

Wow, are you ever naive about us Yanks...

The problem with you Argentinian's is that there were so many Nazi's that relocated there after W.W. II and corrupted your own goverment [sic] that you only see the world as being either black or white.

Wake up an smell the coffee... it's Colombian, would you like a cup? One lump or two?
Italian roast, perhaps? It's Mussolini free....!:biggrin:

Oh its worse than that. First we had the fascist style peronist goverment in the 40's which emulated Mussolini's regime. And then in the 60's we had the trotskian communist that followed che guevara.

Now we have an amalgam of both in the form of the never-ending Peronist party. We have both worst aspects of the left in one party.


PS: Knowing that you waste seconds of your life to highlight the small grammar mistakes I make is just funny mate, not offensive to me, but amusing that you waste your time for a point no one cares :D
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I think its the other way around mate. Last time I checked, most socialists in your country oppose the majority of your rights, such as the right to bear arms. So I can only assume that if you apply socialism, most of your rights would slowly go away. Its just the logical step, making the answer to your question, pretty obvious. A constitution is only good as long as people respect it. Aside from that its just a piece of paper.

In my country we have a constitution which was an adaptation of the U.S. constitution. And we had a similar republican system. Only lasted while politicians respected it, eventually no one really cared. The Arg constitution is trampled every single day.

In fact aren't there already laws to, for example, take away your guns?



Oh its worse than that. First we had the fascist style peronist goverment in the 40's which emulated Mussolini's regime. And then in the 60's we had the trotskian communist that followed che guevara.

Now we have an amalgam of both in the form of the never-ending Peronist party. We have both worst aspects of the left in one party.


PS: Knowing that you waste seconds of your life to highlight the small grammar mistakes I make is just funny mate, not offensive to me, but amusing that you waste your time for a point no one cares :D

A lot of Americans say "Goverment" with the "n" silent. And, most of us gringos can't roll our "r"s when we mangle our Spanish. JFK had a Boston accent, and used to say "Americer" instead of America. Then there's the commonly mispronounced word "nucular" instead of nuclear. :lol:
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
I think its the other way around mate. Last time I checked, most socialists in your country oppose the majority of your rights, such as the right to bear arms. So I can only assume that if you apply socialism, most of your rights would slowly go away. Its just the logical step, making the answer to your question, pretty obvious. A constitution is only good as long as people respect it. Aside from that its just a piece of paper.

In my country we have a constitution which was an adaptation of the U.S. constitution. And we had a similar republican system. Only lasted while politicians respected it, eventually no one really cared. The Arg constitution is trampled every single day.

In fact aren't there already laws to, for example, take away your guns?



Oh its worse than that. First we had the fascist style peronist goverment in the 40's which emulated Mussolini's regime. And then in the 60's we had the trotskian communist that followed che guevara.

Now we have an amalgam of both in the form of the never-ending Peronist party. We have both worst aspects of the left in one party.


PS: Knowing that you waste seconds of your life to highlight the small grammar mistakes I make is just funny mate, not offensive to me, but amusing that you waste your time for a point no one cares :D

Take away our guns...? Like I said, you don't know us Yanks very well, do you?
Even if we were to become a Communist nation, I guarantee you, we'll still have our guns. Most gun owners have at least one unregistered gun, some have many...automatic weapons, even rocket launchers... I used to know a fellow that had a large cache of automatic weapons buried somewhere in the Mojave Desert... and I'm talking about Browning Automatic Rifles [B.A.R.s] Thompson sub-machine guns, "Burp" guns, etc., in other words, military and military grade firearms and hardware. He had enough to arm a platoon.
That was just one guy that lived in Los Angeles...now imagine how many other guys that live in L.A. likely have similar caches...then think about the entire State of California...a "liberal State", and then consider what might be buried, hidden away, in caches of arms in States like, Idaho...the number one State of citizens that believe in Sovereign Citizenry and Sovereign States. Then think about Wyoming, Colorado, Utah [those Mormons are a cautious and paranoid lot...remember David Koresh and the Branch Davidians? ...probably not... they likely don't allow that kind of news in your media since you people are so govenment [sic] controlled ... "whipped" sounds more like it...

As for needling you about your spelling errors... well, you're not a fellow Yank... your criticizing the U.S.A., you have implied that we are a bunch of wimps by saying that anyone will succeed in taking our guns or even f**king with our Second Amendment rights to own one... and as you have no knowledge of what a State Militia is really or that Obama effectively eliminated them by his executive order that all such entities and the National Guard be henceforth under the command of the Pentagon... and then tried to pull that "Operation Gun Runner" b.s. ...part of that false flag campaign backed, initiated, by ar** holes like Saros and his ilk.
I simply can't resist any opportunity to mock and belittle you, to be absolutely honest.

But hey, I'm expecting a great sum of $$$ soon, [it's long overdue and it will be paid eventually...even if I should die ten years from now and it's not paid...it will go to my heirs, when it is paid] and I'm thinking of buying an obscene amount of property in Argentina... maybe Chile...but Argentina is top of my list right now... maybe you can hook me up with ...uh...on better thought. I'll just wait until all that happens.
I'll invite you over for some, archery practice...yeah, that's the ticket... then
we can crack the seal on a bottle of good Yankee Whiskey, Bourbon, of course...and talk of Cabbages and Kings, or Dictators, and Buffalo Wings...
How does that sound to you?

Give me your number, or address, and I'll drop ya a line... give ya a ring a ding ding...
Till then, Cheers...!:biggrin:

:tongue:
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
A lot of Americans say "Goverment" with the "n" silent. And, most of us gringos can't roll our "r"s when we mangle our Spanish. JFK had a Boston accent, and used to say "Americer" instead of America. Then there's the commonly mispronounced word "nucular" instead of nuclear. :lol:


Shucks, David, back home, down South [of the Grapevine] we all say Gov'mint.. as in dadburn, gawddern, gov'mint, ya' all.
...and we say 'Merrika, just like it sposed to be pernownced. and it's NUKE-lar... sheesh, you Northeners... you spend too much time in skool as it is... git yerself a real edukashun growing up in the woods or on a farm, boy howdy...yesirre buddy.
Toodle loo, ya' all.
 
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