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  #1  
Unread 01-31-2020, 06:07 PM
Mohammad690 Mohammad690 is offline
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Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Hi all,

I have heard it said a lot that making a prophecy changes the outcome. The reasoning goes like this:

Suppose you are going to pass your exam. Then you consult an oracle and it tells you so. Then, you become complacent because of this new knowledge and don’t study as hard and you fail your exam as a result.

But this presupposes that a prophesied outcome can change. In other words, if you were to believe in absolute fate, then the oracle should have told you that you will fail, taking into account the very same question that you asked it. But then again, this statement is problematic in and out of itself.

Anyway.

What is your view and experience regarding this? I am interested to hear them.

Thank you.

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  #2  
Unread 01-31-2020, 07:06 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Originally Posted by Mohammad690 View Post
Hi all,

I have heard it said a lot that making a prophecy changes the outcome. The reasoning goes like this:

Suppose you are going to pass your exam. Then you consult an oracle and it tells you so. Then, you become complacent because of this new knowledge and don’t study as hard and you fail your exam as a result.

But this presupposes that a prophesied outcome can change. In other words, if you were to believe in absolute fate, then the oracle should have told you that you will fail, taking into account the very same question that you asked it. But then again, this statement is problematic in and out of itself.

Anyway.

What is your view and experience regarding this? I am interested to hear them.

Thank you.
Google self-fulfilling prophecy.
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  #3  
Unread 01-31-2020, 09:09 PM
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passiflora passiflora is offline
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Yes it can, which is why I have such little patience with traditional astrology, except when it is accompanied by remedies as in Vedic astrology.
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  #4  
Unread 01-31-2020, 09:54 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Yes it can, which is why I have such little patience with traditional astrology, except when it is accompanied by remedies as in Vedic astrology.
What kind? Have you heard of Christopher Warnock? Are vedic remedies similar to what he does?
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  #5  
Unread 01-31-2020, 11:28 PM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

No, they are not really similar. He elects talismans that are supposed to collect the transiting astrological energy and I don’t think he recommends talismans for weak/ afflicted planets. Vedic / south Asian Islamic? remedies are a bit ritualistic, and somatically reverential of the character (psychology and materials) of the planet. You might chant moon mantras on Monday, or donate black sesame seeds to a temple on Saturday, that kind of thing.
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  #6  
Unread 02-01-2020, 01:33 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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No, they are not really similar. He elects talismans that are supposed to collect the transiting astrological energy and I don’t think he recommends talismans for weak/ afflicted planets. Vedic / south Asian Islamic? remedies are a bit ritualistic, and somatically reverential of the character (psychology and materials) of the planet. You might chant moon mantras on Monday, or donate black sesame seeds to a temple on Saturday, that kind of thing.
Uhm, both are related to ''change you destiny'' / astrological remedy in otherwise very (but not necessarily fully) deterministic worldview. Gems might have naturalistic affinity (noted along with plants in most traditional western authors like Lilly), but donating something to a Hindu temple is idol worship. I have trouble seeing how the latter is related to the planets without me accepting your religious worldview.
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  #7  
Unread 02-01-2020, 01:38 AM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Uhm, both are related to ''change you destiny'' / astrological remedy in otherwise very (but not necessarily fully) deterministic worldview. Gems might have naturalistic affinity (noted along with plants in most traditional western authors like Lilly), but donating something to a Hindu temple is idol worship. I have trouble seeing how the latter is related to the planets without me accepting your religious worldview.
Right, just like medicine can change your destiny, totally similar

Pet, black sesame seeds on a Saturday is Saturn. Ugh.
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  #8  
Unread 02-01-2020, 01:43 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Right, just like medicine can change your destiny, totally similar
Interesting that you bring medicine, read second last paragraph - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/1A*.html#3

Compare Culpeper's astrological and medical knowledge.

Last edited by petosiris; 02-01-2020 at 01:45 AM.
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  #9  
Unread 02-01-2020, 01:46 AM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Yes (and do you have any more details on what is alluded to there?) but I'm sure you're not equating Egyptian astrology with Hellenistic with Vedic, just because the discussion on remedies is domain with which you're unfamiliar. Or maybe you are?
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  #10  
Unread 02-01-2020, 01:47 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Pet, black sesame seeds on a Saturday is Saturn. Ugh.
Passi, donating black sesame seeds to Saturn or Shani (whether it be the planet or the god, or some conflation of the two) is idol worship that also requires you to believe that they exist and have the power to remedy your situation.
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  #11  
Unread 02-01-2020, 01:54 AM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Gems have naturalistic affinity to planets
Plants have naturalistic affinity to planets
Days of the week have naturalistic affinity to planets
Colors have naturalistic affinity to planets
Planets are material causes in traditional astrology
But as soon as a temple is involved as a donation site for any of the above, it's idol worship?
Find me another place that will accept pounds of black sesame seeds or mustard seeds, I am ok with it, unlike you.
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  #12  
Unread 02-01-2020, 01:56 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Yes (and do you have any more details on what is alluded to there?) but I'm sure you're not equating Egyptian astrology with Hellenistic with Vedic, just because the discussion on remedies is domain with which you're unfamiliar. Or maybe you are?
Hellenistic astrology is basically Ptolemaic/Late Egyptian astrology according to Franz Cumont who claims that the predictions described in Dorotheus, Manetho, Valens, Firmicus and others fit that geographical region before the annexation by Rome. Ptolemy was speaking of contemporaries.
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  #13  
Unread 02-01-2020, 02:00 AM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

Anyway, back to your original question. The mechanism of remedies in Hellenistic and Vedic are different. A talisman, like Warnock has made (actually by an astrological jeweler in Pakistan), is more like an idol if you ask me. But I have not seen such a thing in the book of remedies from that region translated into English. Only the ritualistic remedies.
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  #14  
Unread 02-01-2020, 02:01 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Gems have naturalistic affinity to planets
Plants have naturalistic affinity to planets
Days of the week have naturalistic affinity to planets
Colors have naturalistic affinity to planets
Planets are material causes in traditional astrology
But as soon as a temple is involved as a donation site for any of the above, it's idol worship?
Find me another place that will accept pounds of black sesame seeds or mustard seeds, I am ok with it, unlike you.
What is strange about it? The God who created Saturn, told us not to worship the Sun, the Moon and the stars that give life to our planet - Deuteronomy 4:19
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Unread 02-01-2020, 02:04 AM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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What is strange about it? The God who created Saturn, told us not to worship the Sun, the Moon and the stars that give life to our planet - Deuteronomy 4:19
Very strange how people quite sensitive to power dynamics within their own institutions get very loosey-goosey when it comes to those of others. I think you are conflating the respect more closely corresponding in a ritualistic society to a deeply reverential attitude with 'the worship' probably reserved for Brahma.
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  #16  
Unread 02-01-2020, 02:06 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Very strange how people quite sensitive to power dynamics within their own institutions get very loosey-goosey when it comes to those of others.
Can you translate this sentence into English?
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  #17  
Unread 02-01-2020, 02:16 AM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

I thought it in English, maybe that is the problem, or it is very late at night for you. good night!
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  #18  
Unread 02-01-2020, 02:19 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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I thought it in English, maybe that is the problem, or it is very late at night for you. good night!
Maybe say it another more direct and blunt way? You know I am not a native speaker.
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  #19  
Unread 02-01-2020, 02:23 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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I think you are conflating the respect more closely corresponding in a ritualistic society to a deeply reverential attitude with 'the worship' probably reserved for Brahma.
If I decide to donate black sesame seeds to a temple of yours, do you think I wouldn't be giving you a deeply reverential attitude that is reserved for the one true God, who ''divided the stars unto all nations'' (as their ministers rather than the other way around)?
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  #20  
Unread 02-01-2020, 02:34 AM
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passiflora passiflora is offline
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Maybe say it another more direct and blunt way? You know I am not a native speaker.
That is just the way I talk petosiris, you will have to work a little hard to understand me, the way I work to understand you.

The temples aren’t mine though, I’m trying to get you to understand. They don’t even collectively belong to all Hindus, who are united mostly by a collective philosophy holding Brahma as the cause of all things, imo. By going to a temple I get involved in a participation mystique that has material, psychosocial, transpersonal dimensions. But so does a football game 🤷🏽*♀️ Just different ones.
Monotheists are loath to acknowledge the complementarity of pluralistic religion. However, practicing traditional astrology is really not a lot different. You are putting planets God created between you and your God, as some intervening material cause
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Unread 02-01-2020, 02:44 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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That is just the way I talk petosiris, you will have to work a little hard to understand me, the way I work to understand you.

The temples aren’t mine though, I’m trying to get you to understand. They don’t even collectively belong to all Hindus, who are united mostly by a collective philosophy holding Brahma as the cause of all things, imo. By going to a temple I get involved in a participation mystique that has material, psychosocial, transpersonal dimensions. But so does a football game 🤷🏽*♀️ Just different ones.
Monotheists are loath to acknowledge the complementarity of pluralistic religion. However, practicing traditional astrology is really not a lot different. You are putting planets God created between you and your God, as some intervening material cause
I obviously disagree that secondary causation contradicts monotheism. Were you born Hindu?
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  #22  
Unread 02-01-2020, 03:01 AM
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passiflora passiflora is offline
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I obviously disagree that secondary causation contradicts monotheism. Were you born Hindu?
No, I was not What is the difference between a secondary material cause deserving respect (perhaps “like an elder” is not quite the right analogy), and a distinctly junior “lord”?
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  #23  
Unread 02-01-2020, 03:08 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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No, I was not What is the difference between a secondary material cause deserving respect (perhaps “like an elder” is not quite the right analogy), and a distinctly junior “lord”?
Personally I would not donate black sesame seeds because that is clearly religious worship, I mean you don't donate black sesame seeds to elders and lords. The distinction between greater and lesser idolatry you made is real, but it is between two evils, according to the Bible.
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Unread 02-01-2020, 03:16 AM
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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Personally I would not donate black sesame seeds because that is clearly religious worship, I mean you don't donate black sesame seeds to elders and lords. The distinction between greater and lesser idolatry you made is real, but it is between two evils, according to the Bible.
But donating to elders (and I hope you do some kind of elder charity anyway) IS a Saturn remedy, though you would likely donate them what they need rather than black sesame seeds - that is part of understanding Saturn. You can do a search for any random iteration of a cookbook list of remedies. You are still not getting the concept that there is a supreme cause in Hinduism, and a trinity of lesser causes, and an entire mythology populated by lesser characters whose significance can vary greatly depending on the region, family, person who is beholding the universe. And oh, I'm NOT Hindu. Just very interested in a tradition that seems wiser than I can grasp, yet not committed to it.
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Last edited by passiflora; 02-01-2020 at 03:19 AM.
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  #25  
Unread 02-01-2020, 03:20 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Does making a prophecy changes the outcome?

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But donating to elders (and I hope you do some kind of elder charity anyway), though you would likely donate them what they need rather than black sesame seeds - that is part of understanding Saturn. You can do a search for any random iteration of a cookbook list. You are still not getting the concept that there is a supreme cause in Hinduism, and a trinity of lesser causes, and an entire mythology populated by lesser characters whose significance can vary greatly depending on the region, family, person who is beholding the universe. And oh, I'm NOT Hindu. Just very interested in a tradition that seems wiser than I can grasp, yet not committed to it.
You spill milk (do puja) on the ground in front of elders? What a weirdo.

Oh, and you don't need to tell me that we live in Babylon.
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