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  #26  
Unread 04-04-2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

Yeah I read a lot about those Venus Chrion aspects. I really have no qualms about gender, I'm happy with being male. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents. As I say my Venus is square Chiron and Chrion is opposite Saturn, so I keep to your thread topic! Plus I can see you want to do research on this, perhaps so you can build your profiles of people with these aspects!


Last edited by byjove; 04-04-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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  #27  
Unread 07-17-2012, 06:22 AM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

I was born in 1989 and I'm a Scorpio with a libra cusp and a Leo rising and Virgo moon (as well as Chiron opposit Saturn and Uranus) and I've always had a dislike for authority but the funny thing is, my best friend in the world is my libra father and my buggiest difficulty is my picses mother.
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  #28  
Unread 07-18-2012, 04:03 AM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

I have saturn in capricorn oppose chiron in cancer. My father was there physically in my life, although emotionally absent. I never really had a connection with him. Our conversations are mostly small talk about the weather, work etc . I am constantly thinking that he may die at any moment and I would never get a chance to have that deep connection with him. I love my father more than anything and appreciate all the things he has provided me with, but I always hope that one day I will get that chance to tell him. My father is not good at expressing his emotions and is very reserved, but i'm hoping one day we can have a close relationship. But I would say he has been a great father overall...just the emotional connection is missing.

And i have problems with authority. Not so much with the government, police or people in service. It is more with people who have gotten an authority position without any effort and think they have the right to impose their will on others. Or when someone thinks they are better than someone else because they have a position of authority.
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  #29  
Unread 02-24-2013, 04:36 PM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

Hello,

I know this is quite an old post now but I thought I would help contribute. I was born in the late summer of 1990 and I have a wide opposition between chiron in cancer and saturn in cappy (4, nearly 5 degrees). I think a lot of my generation have a heavy grandparent influence. Both my Nan's have been a major part of my life and upbringing (saturn in the 4th house btw), my sister is 4 years younger and she has a similar influence. I think parenting changed in the late 80s and early to mid 90s, the grandparents started to become involved more, especially in taking care of the children when both parents were working.

My mother either had me by accident or used me for monetary purposes; my parents broke up a little while after I was born, but my father kept in contact and I saw him every fortnight, so this is another demonstration of the father being distant / absent (although not always voluntarily).

At school I was told I was argumentative at times (during a parent's evening even lol.. a specific teacher however), although I think it is more to do when I feel I have been slighted, as I am a placid and easy going person (libra rising). At both companies I have worked for my superior's / boss' have both been very good to me (10th house jupiter), one male and one female; and they seem to be very much like a parent figure (mc in cancer?). I have never been particually popular, and was picked on at school, even at work people avoid me (chiron 10th house relevancy).

I don't like to face my wounds, but I would wonder whether that is more to do with my moon in sag and possibly mercury in the 12th house(not wanting to talk about it), they are also in square.

In terms of restriction I don't like forcing myself to have discipline, I do find that difficult, although I'm sure there is potential there; my nan helped with that. My generation also had the UK's recession hit us when it was time to start work (I left college the summer in 2009).

Last edited by Cloud9er; 02-24-2013 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Thought of another point to add and correcting
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  #30  
Unread 04-30-2014, 01:24 PM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

I know this post was pretty old, but I have Chiron in opposition to Saturn.
(June 14, 1987 at 12:31AM in Tucson, Arizona)

My Sun is in conjunction to Chiron, and they oppose Saturn (in the 9th), AND Uranus (on my Midheaven). My father was 20 years older than my mother, and until they divorced (I think I was 8), they raised me and my brother on strict religious values. I wasn't allowed to visit with my maternal Grandmother or my Paternal aunt because of their beliefs, and I wasn't allowed to watch a lot of TV programs. After the divorce my dad moved around to different states doing construction work, and my mom moved us to Texas to live with her mother (ironic since I wasn't allowed to see her). My mother talked a lot about spiritual warfare, heaven, hell, good, and bad, but I felt as though I knew something wasn't right. Dysfunctional is the only way to describe my childhood, but I felt like I didn't belong there. I had to get out, and I did.

As far as a father figure goes ... my dad wasn't around much. I viewed him as someone who could never do anything wrong. Maybe that's Neptune in Capricorn for ya, but no matter what he did or didn't do, I understood him. He was so real, if that makes sense. He believed that WE have the power to control our emotions, and our lives/future. Everything was a matter of perception to him, and my mother hated that about him. Deep down I felt like every time she would mention his "views" in a negative way - she was talking negative about me, too. It's like the world my mother taught me, and the world my father taught me were completely different, and it's been a struggle to undo the damage of my mother's dysfunction.

My biggest struggle has been school. I moved around so much as a child that I didn't get the proper education I needed. By the time I was 13 I wanted out of my mother's house so I ran away to my father. He wasn't really a parent, but more of a teacher... so I basically did what I want. I ended up pregnant at 14, and so you can imagine how school went after that. It didn't. I think Uranus in Aries changed that because one day I decided to get my GED. I finished that in about a month, and then went on to college. I learned about religions all over the world, and suddenly things CLICKED. There is a huge world out there, and a lot of things are UNKNOWN. I'm not bound by one religion, especially a repressive one! Unfortunately, the loss of my father AND little brother within two days of each other has changed my life completely, and now I struggle with staying in school OR learning about who I really am. So I chose myself instead of school.

None of my family finished college, so I wanted to be the first. But really I think I was just living the way my mom wanted me to. She wanted me to be stable, and get a good job. I want to be happy, even if I don't make ANY money. Money was always the root of her distress. My image of a father is not someone who is controlling, mean, or harsh ... but a teacher. Someone who teaches about embracing differences, love, and self awareness. The bad side to everything is deep down I want so badly to be loved in a way that a teacher can't love you. It's not personal.

I don't speak to my mother anymore, and I do NOT teach my kids to fear religion. I wish I was more personal with them, but I do love them ... and I can only make due with what I know to be true for myself. I want them to live for themselves, and avoid a dream created by society... they can do/be whoever/whatever they want to be! The sky is the limit. But staying true to their soul is the most important thing.

Hope that made sense, lol.

Savannah

Last edited by PlutoBabe; 04-30-2014 at 01:28 PM.
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  #31  
Unread 03-28-2018, 09:37 PM
Chironpracter Chironpracter is offline
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Red face Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

Hello,

I was born in August of 89 with Chiron opposing Saturn. And I am in my Sarurn return now.

My Father lived across the other side of the world (me in the uk him in the USA) and although we wrote regularly once in my teens. I have only seen him four times. Once as a baby, once as a child and twice as a young adult in my twenties. Due to a relationship my mum was in I often had next to no communication with him as a young child and he later confessed he was depressed when he did not know where I was as my mum kept moving and her number kept changing.

Being in my Saturn return at present has unveiled some things such as:

Fear of judgment and failure

I've been described as immature and childish and in much contrast to the false beliefs I before I see I am incredibly childish. Being an adult scares me, I'm trying to evolve through taking responsibility through my business and relationship but often hit walls which triggers my childish and detached ego.
I'm finding it very difficult hence searching the net for any information on the placement. I know we can often evolve our Saturn lessons through opposing signs and placements.

My self talk is really harsh and my self esteem is very low. Prior to my Saturn return I wore a pretty good mask, makeup hair clothes jewellery to cover up / hide from others.

I'm incredibly sensitive to critique and what others think or feel about me. This means I'm often trying to fit in by saying the right things or not sharing how I truly feel.

I escape a lot through reality tv and used to thrive off my social media persona and compliments. As a result I find it hard to be present just to enjoy my life day to day. I've taken up yoga which helps.

I get trapped in my mind a lot, I do my best to keep in line but act out unconsciously very often.

I push away people I love including my partner but crave companionship and connection at the same time.

I can get stuck in victim mode or project onto others.

I have a kind heart but have become cautious of everything I do for fear of doing things wrong.

Before the awakening process began I used to be what I thought was positive and kind but I seemed to have been coasting through life previously without really experiencing or really taking responsibility and quite frankly being self centred and self absorbed. I never stuck up for myself in many scenarios also, but this stems back to fear of judgement.

Cancer is my 12th house I rarely ever reveal how I feel and find it hard to listen to others or hold genuine conversation. I have a very fragile relationship with my mother who did not protect or display love to me as a child. As a result I developed masculine controlling tendencies to bring order to the household where she struggled to step up. I was also subject to physical abuse from both her and my step dad under 12 and was moved from house to house several times as a newborn baby -2 (I'm not much sure or the early childhood before that I sometimes feel something that happened to me is being hidden from the age period of 1-5 but I have been to scared to ask my mum)

My stepdads family rejected me as a very young child and often vocally reminded my sisters I was not their real sister. As mentioned due to my step dads influence I received very little contact or interaction with my biological dad, although he always sent birthday gifts when he finally received my home address.

This is just a slight example of how the placements may have affected me. as you can see this combined with a serious relationship and with my Saturn return has brought out so many undesirable characteristics that I never thought I'd be associated with.

It sometimes feels like I'll never learn my lessons and I'm constantly fearful I will lose the good things in my life if I don't step up. Yet I feel my actions aren't consistent or strong enough to support my growth and evolution.

Thank you for reading to my not so positive summary, I hope it helps . I'm sure there will be great things waiting once I finally decided to step up deep down inside.
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  #32  
Unread 03-29-2018, 02:35 AM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chironpracter View Post
Being in my Saturn return at present has unveiled some things such as:

Fear of judgment and failure

My self talk is really harsh and my self esteem is very low. Prior to my Saturn return I wore a pretty good mask, makeup hair clothes jewellery to cover up / hide from others.

I'm incredibly sensitive to critique and what others think or feel about me. This means I'm often trying to fit in by saying the right things or not sharing how I truly feel.

I escape a lot through reality tv and used to thrive off my social media persona and compliments. As a result I find it hard to be present just to enjoy my life day to day. I've taken up yoga which helps.

I push away people I love including my partner but crave companionship and connection at the same time.

..... but I seemed to have been coasting through life previously without really experiencing or really taking responsibility and quite frankly being self centred and self absorbed. I never stuck up for myself in many scenarios also, but this stems back to fear of judgement.

Cancer is my 12th house I rarely ever reveal how I feel and find it hard to listen to others or hold genuine conversation. I have a very fragile relationship with my mother who did not protect or display love to me as a child. As a result I developed masculine controlling tendencies to bring order to the household where she struggled to step up.

It sometimes feels like I'll never learn my lessons and I'm constantly fearful I will lose the good things in my life if I don't step up. Yet I feel my actions aren't consistent or strong enough to support my growth and evolution.
Chironpracter, thank you for the detail you have included in your post. I have only copied some of it - chiefly that which stands out for me.

I think that what we have in your Saturn R is a combination of Chiron being in Cancer, and natal Saturn conj Neptune. That said, you are not just having a Saturn Return (which is enough to contend with) but on top of Saturn conj Saturn, you have Saturn opposing your natal Chiron, as well as about to form a conjunct with natal Neptune.

As I have `read' them, those who were born with this rather difficult mix have a number of different outcomes, and/or realisations, which are only shown to you come your Saturn Return. These are:
* a belief that you are not loved - or are intrinsically unloveable (that's Chiron in Cancer)
* there have been `dangers' in your home, which were not terribly clearly drawn (Chiron in Cancer + Neptune opp Chiron)
* you use escape (eg. gaming, technology, social media) as a way of deflecting what is The Truth (that's Neptune again.) It's possible that the form of escape you use can be self-deluding.
* the masculine principle - usually provided by a father, or father figure - is either absent, distant, or deeply flawed, sometimes even abusive, often with addictive behaviours. (The `absent father' is Chiron opp Saturn, while the addicted father is Neptune conj Saturn)

So ... when transiting Saturn forms its 1st return to the natal, this whole house of cards - which has been your own coping mechanism - comes tumbling down. This is difficult, but the first thing you need to do, and to keep doing, is to be truthful with yourself. Given you may only ever have been partially truthful to yourself about yourself, this is an entirely new skill which you have to master. Initially this feels like you are dying. In a way you are, but the outcome, if you stick to the truth, has the potential to be life-changing.

And one more thing ....
With Chiron in Cancer, and in the 12th house, you are very, very sensitive to the moods and thoughts and suffering of other people, especially those in the home in which you live. You need to be conscious of this, and to strengthen your own boundaries, so that you are not continually absorbing the lives of everyone in your environment.

Thank you for your honest contribution.
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That's how the light gets in."
- from Anthem
by Leonard Cohen

Last edited by R4VEN; 03-29-2018 at 08:15 AM.
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  #33  
Unread 03-29-2018, 03:21 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

This is a great thread. Very interesting subject.


I have been reading a lot about Chiron opposed Saturn lately because my future son in law has a very tight opposition between them---but in Leo/Aquarius.

He was born in 92---has Sun/Chiron in Leo opposed Saturn in Aquarius, in 3rd house.

Chiron in Leo opposing Saturn in Aquarius--3/9th----been trying to understand how that works in his chart.

He seems to get along pretty well with his father. He even works in the same field, and sometimes works with him, with his Dad as the boss of the project. And he seems to enjoy that and see his father as a mentor and a good influence. [ and they are in 'transportation' --teamsters in the entertainment biz, driving for film/tv production]

And he is pretty close to his family. Which I appreciate, because he is totally fine with my girl being close to us, unlike her last boyfriend, who we grew to dislike, very much...

Anyway, it seems like the Chiron/Saturn opposition , in his 3rd/9th, has to do with his dislike for college and his reserved nature in terms of communication===he speaks quietly, but intelligently. He is a man of few words, but they are well chosen.

He listens intently and asks provocative questions, but is never loud or seeking the spotlight or attention.

He is very self confident however. So it is kind of a riddle. He is very handsome and very successful in his work. Makes a good living and is a stable, non drinker, non druggie, Vegan. But he doesn't boast about it and is kind of shy, for a Sun/Mercury in Leo in the 9th.

I think the Chiron opposition to that Leo, from his 3rd house, has a lot to do with his reserved, quiet confidence.

Last edited by katydid; 03-29-2018 at 03:23 AM.
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  #34  
Unread 03-29-2018, 09:30 AM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

katydid, it's really good to hear from you, and I'm glad you like the thread. So do I!!!

I had to give your post some thought. Firstly, I am glad your daughter has found a good man! Secondly, it appears that not all those born with Chiron Opp. Saturn have harsh relationships with father and father figures, although I suspect there are a large number of those with this placement who will experience some kind of clash, or rebellion in relation to authority figures, depending on where each of Saturn and Chiron is on their natal.
Quiet but confident. I suspect that's something to do with Saturn's dampening of the usual brashness of young Leos. In this instance, it works in the young man's favour.
I thought your assessment of your future SIL's Chiron-Saturn to be a good one, especially given he has yet to experience his Saturn Return.

I suspect the Saturn Return is when the limitations of one's Saturn become evident, and perhaps not before. That is what happened to me, as well as one young almost-29 yr old I have been counselling online, who has had a similar reaction to his Saturn Return. That is, he is having to face a number of realities which have not ever really been on his radar.
I have to admit that while I lived within a Saturn-Chiron square natally, the reality of it, and what it truly meant for me did not manifest until Saturn returned to its natal position. Until then - for me - all was cool, and I had a handle on pretty much everything, or so I thought!!

And yet, having said all that, I have a niece, born mid 1988, who has a natal t-square composed of Mercury-Chiron conj in Cancer in 1st opposition Uranus-Saturn in 7th, all square her Mars in Pisces in the 10th. She has always got on well with her Dad (my brother, who was almost 46 when she was born, so maybe his age is the Saturn factor) and she has always simply done her `thing' as an artist. During her recent Saturn Return she married her long-term boyfriend, who is quiet, intellectual and studious, a bit like her father.

I imagine that not all those with this natal placement have the same - or even similar - expression of it.
My grandson is almost 13, and has natal Saturn in 2nd in Leo opposing Chiron in 8th in Aquarius. Since he turned 10 his father has had custody of him, and so his life is at last stable. It turns out that between the ages of 4 and 10, he was abused and bullied by his mother's boyfriend. (Those with Chiron in 8th and/or Scorpio generally have experiences with power, or loss of power at the hands of others.) My son is 10 years older than the child's mother, so again, we have the `older father' situation.

I've rambled. I'm sorry. This topic has that effect on me.
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  #35  
Unread 03-29-2018, 05:39 PM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

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Originally Posted by R4VEN View Post
katydid, it's really good to hear from you, and I'm glad you like the thread. So do I!!!

I had to give your post some thought. Firstly, I am glad your daughter has found a good man! Secondly, it appears that not all those born with Chiron Opp. Saturn have harsh relationships with father and father figures, although I suspect there are a large number of those with this placement who will experience some kind of clash, or rebellion in relation to authority figures, depending on where each of Saturn and Chiron is on their natal.
Quiet but confident. I suspect that's something to do with Saturn's dampening of the usual brashness of young Leos. In this instance, it works in the young man's favour.
I thought your assessment of your future SIL's Chiron-Saturn to be a good one, especially given he has yet to experience his Saturn Return.

I suspect the Saturn Return is when the limitations of one's Saturn become evident, and perhaps not before. That is what happened to me, as well as one young almost-29 yr old I have been counselling online, who has had a similar reaction to his Saturn Return. That is, he is having to face a number of realities which have not ever really been on his radar.
I have to admit that while I lived within a Saturn-Chiron square natally, the reality of it, and what it truly meant for me did not manifest until Saturn returned to its natal position. Until then - for me - all was cool, and I had a handle on pretty much everything, or so I thought!!

And yet, having said all that, I have a niece, born mid 1988, who has a natal t-square composed of Mercury-Chiron conj in Cancer in 1st opposition Uranus-Saturn in 7th, all square her Mars in Pisces in the 10th. She has always got on well with her Dad (my brother, who was almost 46 when she was born, so maybe his age is the Saturn factor) and she has always simply done her `thing' as an artist. During her recent Saturn Return she married her long-term boyfriend, who is quiet, intellectual and studious, a bit like her father.

I imagine that not all those with this natal placement have the same - or even similar - expression of it.
My grandson is almost 13, and has natal Saturn in 2nd in Leo opposing Chiron in 8th in Aquarius. Since he turned 10 his father has had custody of him, and so his life is at last stable. It turns out that between the ages of 4 and 10, he was abused and bullied by his mother's boyfriend. (Those with Chiron in 8th and/or Scorpio generally have experiences with power, or loss of power at the hands of others.) My son is 10 years older than the child's mother, so again, we have the `older father' situation.

I've rambled. I'm sorry. This topic has that effect on me.
You're not rambling. You are making good points. And Hello, good to see you too...


Yes, thank you---it is so nice that my daughter met a good man. I am thrilled for them both.

AS you say, the Saturn Return might reveal more about that pesky Saturn/Chiron opposition, and it is approaching.

I asked my daughter if her bf liked his father as much as he seems to. I asked if there was maybe more to the story...LOL

She thinks the Saturn/Chiron opposition, 3rd/9th, may be connected to her boyfriend and his brother, and how Dad treats the 2 of them. [houses make sense for that sibling issue]

BF has a brother one yr older. He used to be the 'golden boy.' The eldest of the 3 kids, named after Dad. He was the athletic, smart popular kid.

Now, he has dealt with alcohol, cocaine problem for a few years. But bf feels that the parents enable the older brother, cover for him, spoil him even. He lives at their home, had 2 recent DUIs, but not a lot of accountability.


So it is creating friction between bf and his Dad. He feels like his brother is not going to learn anything or get better , if he is enabled by the family to live comfortably, vacation with them, have bills paid etc.

So maybe it will come to a head during the upcoming Saturn Return.



Looking at his chart, I wonder if this does affect his relationship with Dad, in terms of all of the attention his older brother receives, for 'bad' behavior. Is there resentment there lurking within?
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  #36  
Unread 03-30-2018, 03:15 AM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
AS you say, the Saturn Return might reveal more about that pesky Saturn/Chiron opposition, and it is approaching.

I asked my daughter if her bf liked his father as much as he seems to. I asked if there was maybe more to the story...LOL

She thinks the Saturn/Chiron opposition, 3rd/9th, may be connected to her boyfriend and his brother, and how Dad treats the 2 of them. [houses make sense for that sibling issue]

BF has a brother one yr older. He used to be the 'golden boy.' The eldest of the 3 kids, named after Dad. He was the athletic, smart popular kid.

Now, he has dealt with alcohol, cocaine problem for a few years. But bf feels that the parents enable the older brother, cover for him, spoil him even. He lives at their home, had 2 recent DUIs, but not a lot of accountability.


So it is creating friction between bf and his Dad. He feels like his brother is not going to learn anything or get better , if he is enabled by the family to live comfortably, vacation with them, have bills paid etc.

So maybe it will come to a head during the upcoming Saturn Return.
Hello, again, katydid. I am hoping that there are more people than just you and me reading this thread!!

Your last post had me following a slightly different thread. I agree that the young man's Saturn being in the 3rd is a sign of sibling issues, and then your description of the brother, and the father's response to him provides a clue. This then led me on a path of looking at the differences between how having an internalised versus an externalised father/authority manifests in each of the brothers. Perhaps your daughter's fiance has internalised father/authority - as he perceives him - while his brother externalises father, thus having to reply upon his father to `provide'.
This further led me on an online search, and I found this site, and this page, which reinforced (I think) what I was trying to get at.

https://astrofix.net/saturn-chiron-aspects/

It appears to be a new site, which is why I maybe had not seen it earlier. Some of the possible manifestations of Chiron-Saturn aspects are:
"Having trouble earning respect. Respect is all-important. Extremely rigid and formal behaviors to deflect attention from deep sensitivity. Having a rigid internal voice of authority. Keeping yourself in line. Not needing to be disciplined because you discipline yourself. Keeping yourself on task. Having an internal disciplinarian. Having an internal authority. Internalizing the voice of your father."

and then there's:

"Dreading the responsibilities that maturity brings. Lessons learned through trusting your own authority. Attitudes to authority that are passed down through members of a family. Lessons learned through examining your attitude toward authority figures in your life. Lack of responsibility or too much responsibility. Lessons learned through taking responsibility for yourself."

and:

"Fear of being judged, yet being judgmental of others. Fear of getting it wrong. Feeling that you are always wrong. Trying to heal the incessant negative voice within. Learning how to stop the litany of self-defeating messages that you send yourself."

Even if your future SIL only has one or two of those fears, and perhaps they are buried deeply, but come out as judgement towards his brother, as well as (silently) of his father's response to his brother, the Saturn R will bring to the surface whatever it is he is holding in.
And ...
"Father issues. Having an ill, weak or ‘wounded’ father. Seeing your father as a mentor or teacher. Your father is trying to recover from his own wounds."

So if your future SIL is fully functional, he has internalised the father/authority, but not entirely or completely, as he still has to observe his father, whom he respects, playing rescuer to his brother, and that rankles.

I found that page on Saturn/Chiron aspects incredibly accurate and apt (for me, with the square natally), so hopefully there are bits & pieces within it which will provide sign posts.

And just to refer to Melanie Reinhart's book on Chiron .......
She talks of those with Chiron-Saturn aspects having to look further than the present for answers to the father/authority archetype. Looking deep into the father's family history can uncover some patterns which may be playing out in the present - patterns to do with the boundaries and restrictions which are in place, and which define a person's relationship with their physical reality, as well as with the structures in which they live, both real and imagined.

[Just to provide an example of how ancestral factors can play out in the person with Chiron-Saturn aspects ...
My own father came from a long line of farmers. His own father was the only one of 5-6 (I can never remember how many there were) brothers who didn't lose his farm to the banks in the 1930s. Even though my grandfather was able to hold onto his farm, my father - who took over the farm when of age - passed on a deep-seated fear of losing everything he had. He would put all kinds of (ridiculous IMO) limitations on my mother's spending, making her the one to be responsible for the farm sinking or swimming, and I have been the one to `carry' this, and to identify it. I married a man who saw me as a source of extra money (we were both teachers, so there should have been plenty of $$$), and he spent not only all his own money, but mine also. (I have Saturn in the 8th) I have never owned property, and have never had significant money in the bank, not because I haven't earned money, but because whenever I have earned good money, it was needed to pay for `other things' - usually for or by other people. Whenever I have resorted to borrowing $$$ it has ended up badly for me ... thus, the shadow of the great-uncles who lost their farms to the banks has been present in my own life. My next oldest brother also has the natal Chiron-Saturn square, but his Saturn is in the 3rd house, so mostly he experienced an awful primary schooling, during which he was punished a lot. (He couldn't spell. He was probably dyslexic - like our father - but he began school in 1951, so dyslexia wasn't known about back then.)]

I can recommend Melanie Reinhart's book on Chiron, "Chiron and the Healing Journey." She has some interesting things to say about the Uranus-Saturn midpoint, which I won't go into here, as that is an essay in itself.
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Unread 03-30-2018, 07:40 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

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Originally Posted by R4VEN View Post
Hello, again, katydid. I am hoping that there are more people than just you and me reading this thread!!

Your last post had me following a slightly different thread. I agree that the young man's Saturn being in the 3rd is a sign of sibling issues, and then your description of the brother, and the father's response to him provides a clue. This then led me on a path of looking at the differences between how having an internalised versus an externalised father/authority manifests in each of the brothers. Perhaps your daughter's fiance has internalised father/authority - as he perceives him - while his brother externalises father, thus having to reply upon his father to `provide'.
This further led me on an online search, and I found this site, and this page, which reinforced (I think) what I was trying to get at.

https://astrofix.net/saturn-chiron-aspects/

It appears to be a new site, which is why I maybe had not seen it earlier. Some of the possible manifestations of Chiron-Saturn aspects are:
"Having trouble earning respect. Respect is all-important. Extremely rigid and formal behaviors to deflect attention from deep sensitivity. Having a rigid internal voice of authority. Keeping yourself in line. Not needing to be disciplined because you discipline yourself. Keeping yourself on task. Having an internal disciplinarian. Having an internal authority. Internalizing the voice of your father."

and then there's:

"Dreading the responsibilities that maturity brings. Lessons learned through trusting your own authority. Attitudes to authority that are passed down through members of a family. Lessons learned through examining your attitude toward authority figures in your life. Lack of responsibility or too much responsibility. Lessons learned through taking responsibility for yourself."

and:

"Fear of being judged, yet being judgmental of others. Fear of getting it wrong. Feeling that you are always wrong. Trying to heal the incessant negative voice within. Learning how to stop the litany of self-defeating messages that you send yourself."

Even if your future SIL only has one or two of those fears, and perhaps they are buried deeply, but come out as judgement towards his brother, as well as (silently) of his father's response to his brother, the Saturn R will bring to the surface whatever it is he is holding in.
And ...
"Father issues. Having an ill, weak or ‘wounded’ father. Seeing your father as a mentor or teacher. Your father is trying to recover from his own wounds."

So if your future SIL is fully functional, he has internalised the father/authority, but not entirely or completely, as he still has to observe his father, whom he respects, playing rescuer to his brother, and that rankles.

I found that page on Saturn/Chiron aspects incredibly accurate and apt (for me, with the square natally), so hopefully there are bits & pieces within it which will provide sign posts.

And just to refer to Melanie Reinhart's book on Chiron .......
She talks of those with Chiron-Saturn aspects having to look further than the present for answers to the father/authority archetype. Looking deep into the father's family history can uncover some patterns which may be playing out in the present - patterns to do with the boundaries and restrictions which are in place, and which define a person's relationship with their physical reality, as well as with the structures in which they live, both real and imagined.

[Just to provide an example of how ancestral factors can play out in the person with Chiron-Saturn aspects ...
My own father came from a long line of farmers. His own father was the only one of 5-6 (I can never remember how many there were) brothers who didn't lose his farm to the banks in the 1930s. Even though my grandfather was able to hold onto his farm, my father - who took over the farm when of age - passed on a deep-seated fear of losing everything he had. He would put all kinds of (ridiculous IMO) limitations on my mother's spending, making her the one to be responsible for the farm sinking or swimming, and I have been the one to `carry' this, and to identify it. I married a man who saw me as a source of extra money (we were both teachers, so there should have been plenty of $$$), and he spent not only all his own money, but mine also. (I have Saturn in the 8th) I have never owned property, and have never had significant money in the bank, not because I haven't earned money, but because whenever I have earned good money, it was needed to pay for `other things' - usually for or by other people. Whenever I have resorted to borrowing $$$ it has ended up badly for me ... thus, the shadow of the great-uncles who lost their farms to the banks has been present in my own life. My next oldest brother also has the natal Chiron-Saturn square, but his Saturn is in the 3rd house, so mostly he experienced an awful primary schooling, during which he was punished a lot. (He couldn't spell. He was probably dyslexic - like our father - but he began school in 1951, so dyslexia wasn't known about back then.)]

I can recommend Melanie Reinhart's book on Chiron, "Chiron and the Healing Journey." She has some interesting things to say about the Uranus-Saturn midpoint, which I won't go into here, as that is an essay in itself.
Wow. Thank You so much for this well thought out post. Very profound thoughts and I read it several times, and will do so a few more times. So much great info.


I will look at Reinserts book as well.


I will copy/paste your 1st few paragraphs below, and 'bold' the traits I have seen in fiance:

Some of the possible manifestations of Chiron-Saturn aspects are:

"Having trouble earning respect. Respect is all-important. Extremely rigid and formal behaviors to deflect attention from deep sensitivity. Having a rigid internal voice of authority. Keeping yourself in line. Not needing to be disciplined because you discipline yourself. Keeping yourself on task. Having an internal disciplinarian. Having an internal authority. Internalizing the voice of your father."


I don't see him as being rigid. He is sweet and sensitive and compassionate. He is fun and easy going when he has the opportunity to relax. His Sag rising helps him a lot.

But his job has very rigid hours. He often leaves for work at 4 am. Has to drive the actors around all day---so he is drug/alcohol tested. So he has to b very disciplined.

He is a Teamster, so earns great money and began this job at 19. So he has had to be strict like this all of his young life.

He can only smoke pot with his friends when he has long vacations from work. He does drink alcohol at night after work though.

But it takes a lot of INTERNALIZED discipline to get up at 3;30 am and drive to the lot and pick up the rig, every morning before sunrise.



and then there's:

"Dreading the responsibilities that maturity brings. Lessons learned through trusting your own authority. Attitudes to authority that are passed down through members of a family. Lessons learned through examining your attitude toward authority figures in your life. Lack of responsibility or too much responsibility. Lessons learned through taking responsibility for yourself."

That bolded part ^^^ is spot on.
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Unread 03-30-2018, 08:02 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

"Fear of being judged, yet being judgmental of others. Fear of getting it wrong. Feeling that you are always wrong. Trying to heal the incessant negative voice within. Learning how to stop the litany of self-defeating messages that you send yourself."


And ...
"Father issues. Having an ill, weak or ‘wounded’ father. Seeing your father as a mentor or teacher. Your father is trying to recover from his own wounds."


I am not sure if he has incessant negative self defeating messages. I don't get that impression. But maybe he is good at hiding them.

My daughter has said that he has the 'Leo issues' of being a tad too self confident at times. And being too sensitive if her Gemini wit is too cutting. But they both agree they both need to work through it as she needs to learn not to be so sarcastic and he needs to laugh at himself more, which she has made happen. lol

But the bolded part, seeing one's father as trying to recover from his own wounds== right on target.

Fiance feels that his dad feels guilty about the older son's drug/alcohol issues. He feels like he worked so much and such long hours, and he should have been home more when his kids were young. So now he is trying to make it up to the eldest, by being there for him, since he lost his Teamster job because of the recent DUI.

Fiance feels lost in a way. He is disciplined and doing things 'right'---but his big brother is getting all of the attention and rewards.

That is very Saturn opposed Sun/Chiron, in my opinion.

I will absolutely look up that Book you suggested. I am curious about the Ancestry connection as well.
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Unread 03-31-2018, 06:09 AM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

Kate, thank you for that response. It appears that your future SIL is a good example for us to use through which both of us can learn more about this natal aspect. As with most astrological aspects, only the most extreme expressions of this aspect have been drawn to my attention, so examining someone who does not appear to possess the most common expressions of this aspect is both a challenge and a frustration!

Firstly, the `Leo issue'. As a Leo Sun myself, I know all about the fragile Leo ego, and how brashness and false confidence can cover a vast well of insecurities and uncertainties, especially in young Leo males. Beneath the Leo veneer no doubt resides the real man within, and he no doubt has all the doubts and wounds and uncertainties of all other mortal beings. Now, whether - and to whom - he is prepared to expose that soft interior will depend upon how much he is invested in that persona. The Sagi Asc can add to that `I'm fine, thank you' approach to the world around him. I'll leave that topic, but I thought it worth mentioning, because with a young Leo, what you see is not always what is really there, and the Leo ego is especially fragile.

What I wanted to convey in this post is related to the male family members - the father, and his two sons, where one is functional, and the other has crashed and burned, and yet the father is putting all his energy into protecting and assisting the older son. I had this thought last night, and I suspect I may be on to something, although I'm not sure you'll be able to discover whether what I suspect is actually true,
Sometimes (maybe often) the son(s) are showing the father something about himself. In reviewing the charts of some of those people I know with the Chiron-Saturn opposition, it is possible to see how their fathers have been the ones on whose behalf this aspect is activated - either by tr Chiron squaring the opposition, or the return of Saturn to its natal position. What I'm saying is that within this aspect is a message to the native's father, and then it's up to the father to interpret the message correctly, by acting upon it in a way which (may) heal the wound in his own family line.

So ... this is how I see it. The two sons are the two extremes of the father's personality. The younger son is the functional, responsible face that the father shows the world. It is how he is seen by others. The older son is the father's shadow. Perhaps the father grappled with alcohol/drugs when young, or maybe not. Perhaps there is within the father a desire to throw off his public and responsible personality, and to just do what he wants - to be irresponsible and spontaneous for a change. Thus, to hide his desire to let his hair down occasionally, the father must pretend that this part of himself does not exist, and so he has to effectively `hide' that by helping his older son, and doing everything he can to make his erratic behaviour go away.
Now, why it is the younger son has the aspect, and (I'm assuming) the older son doesn't, I can't say.
And maybe the older son's behaviour has never been explored personally by the father, but may have been by someone within the paternal family line. Maybe there is a weakness there which is felt by all the men in the line of heredity, but only acted out by one or two.

* * * * *

And I often find that an example of what I am proposing is one way of illustrating a situation. The example I have chosen is David Hicks, (DOB: 7th August 1975) an Australian man who was detained as a terrorist in Guantanamo Bay for 6 years between 2001-2007. He has Chiron (in Aries) squaring his (Cancer) Saturn. He was a `troubled' teen, having been expelled from his high school at age 14, and getting involved in petty crimes throughout his teens. He was born into a working class family, and began travelling the world in search of his own masculine expression and identity. He was discovered in Afghanistan, post 9/11, hanging out with Al Quaida, and immediately labelled a dangerous terrorist, and shipped off the Guantanamo Bay.

Long story short, after David had been incarcerated for a time, and unable to find a way through the `system', his father, (who had never given a speech in his life, and had never wanted anything more than to attend the football on a Saturday, and to work at his job 5 days/week) began a campaign of speaking to the media, and travelling to US to speak with military lawyers, and even appearing on US media; his aim initially was to draw the attention of the world to what had happened to his son, and ultimately, to get him out of that place. This man, working class and of limited education, loved his son so much that he went so far beyond his comfort zone as to be on another planet altogether. But his persistence paid off, and eventually David was released, and is now living back in Australia.
After having had a quick look at David Hicks' astrology at the time of his return to Australia (I can find no time of birth for him) it hit me that he had gone through what he had to go through for his father's benefit. David thought he'd gone to the Middle East in search of his warrior self, but all along he'd ended up incarcerated, with no hope of being released, so that his father could access his own inner warrior. That small realisation gave me a whole new outlook towards fathers and sons, and why certain men have the children they have. And perhaps it's also the information I need in order to fully understand Chiron-Saturn aspects.

And furthermore, I began this thread because my grandson has this aspect ........
When he was 2 and a half, and his mother's family denied my son access for 6 months, there was a time when my son wanted to let the child go, and not see him any more. Then my oldest son spoke to him, telling him a few home truths about how this might affect the child, so the child's father sought legal help (he is Libra Sun, so the legal system, whilst bewildering to most, was something he navigated quite comfortably. He'd spend hours at night on the internet, trawling the Family Law Act. As distressing as the process was for him, with the law he was in his element.)
So ... as I see it, the child was taken from my son so that he could prove himself worthy of being his son's father. In a way, the long process my son had to endure to gain custody of the child was a similar journey to the one taken by Terry Hicks, father of David Hicks.

This sort of thing is what makes astrology live for me !!!
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  #40  
Unread 03-31-2018, 07:12 AM
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Re: The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

katydid, I forgot to ask ......

1) Is the fiance's Leo Sun conjunct Chiron?
2) Is his Sun in opposition to Saturn?

If 1) is so, that will colour things somewhat.
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Unread 09-24-2019, 07:55 AM
Pfpichler Pfpichler is offline
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......give or take a few months.

There has been some talk on this forum lately about the group born during the Capricorn stellium, and many of these people were born with Chiron in Cancer opposition Saturn in Capricorn.

In my extensive research into Chiron and its impact upon people's lives, this aspect of Chiron is the one I understand the least, so I am calling on anyone who has this aspect to provide me with some feedback.

I was born during a Chiron square Saturn in the late 1940's, so I get that totally - the necessity for mothers (and women generally) to adopt masculine and `fathering' roles.
The conjunction of Chiron and Saturn in and around 1965 brought the old masculine patriarchal order to account, and that is evident in the history of the time.

Now to the late 1980's -
This was a time of dissolution and destruction of many of the old structures - especially the communist bloc countries of eastern Europe. Of course, Uranus was also active in Capricorn at that time.

My question is this...................
For those of you who have this placement - Chiron opposition Saturn - how would you say it manifests in your life? What has been your relationship/experience of father/authority/hierarchical structures?

[Just musing about this aspect............
Perhaps amongst people with this natal aspect there is a rejection of what the father represents to them, and in response to this an inability to recognise the father/authority within themselves.
The trouble for me is that I know a number of young people with this aspect, and each one of them is totally different in their relation to father/authority.]
I have Saturn opposition with Chiron. Also Chiron opposing Uranus and Neptune. 2 apr 1989 in Kansas, USA birthtime: 00:48
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Unread 09-24-2019, 08:04 AM
Pfpichler Pfpichler is offline
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I have saturn in capricorn oppose chiron in cancer. My father was there physically in my life, although emotionally absent. I never really had a connection with him. Our conversations are mostly small talk about the weather, work etc . I am constantly thinking that he may die at any moment and I would never get a chance to have that deep connection with him. I love my father more than anything and appreciate all the things he has provided me with, but I always hope that one day I will get that chance to tell him. My father is not good at expressing his emotions and is very reserved, but i'm hoping one day we can have a close relationship. But I would say he has been a great father overall...just the emotional connection is missing.

And i have problems with authority. Not so much with the government, police or people in service. It is more with people who have gotten an authority position without any effort and think they have the right to impose their will on others. Or when someone thinks they are better than someone else because they have a position of authority.
I have almost the same aspects, have the same view of my father, but his second saturn return is changing our relationship greatly though there is still tension, but my view of authority (specifically those who made the laws and culture) completely different than yours.
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