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  #1  
Unread 02-06-2018, 01:09 AM
magnolia8 magnolia8 is offline
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Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Have you experienced either?

I'm not sure how I came across this, but the owner/author of an astrology site (whose name I believe is "elsa") defines a shadow mother as being "cast as the evil mother." As an example, being blamed by your friends or community for traumas experienced by your children.

A stigmatized home I'm a little more familiar with. The most obvious example is a home where a murder took place and consequently loses value. More broadly, these homes can include haunted houses, hoarder homes, etc. - basically, they are "no man's land."

I don't have any real experience with the shadow mother archetype. The closest was my siblings' father at times trying to turn me against my mother.

As far as a stigmatized home, that's tricky. It had many characteristics of one - severe hoarding, multiple deaths, haunted, etc. - some which were known by others, and for which we were seen as...odd; but amazingly, a house still stands on that property* (The other homes we owned were all torn down - and they were only ones on the street to be demolished.)

The site attributes these phenomena to Moon/Pluto. I do not have a real aspect between these two planets. I've attributed the kooky things about my house to Neptune and Uranus being in my 4th.

Would love feedback.

*Correction: original post said the home had been remodeled. It may have actually been demolished and rebuilt; unclear.


Last edited by magnolia8; 02-06-2018 at 01:14 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 02-06-2018, 11:05 PM
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Bumping my thread one time - may delete eventually
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  #3  
Unread 02-06-2018, 11:19 PM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

What do you man when you say you ' don't have any real aspect' between Moon/Pluto?

Is there any kind of aspect?

What degrees and what houses are they in?
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  #4  
Unread 02-07-2018, 02:00 AM
magnolia8 magnolia8 is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Both planets are in 2nd house.

Moon - 24.05
Pluto - 7.12
(I don't know how to make the degree symbol.)
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  #5  
Unread 02-08-2018, 03:56 PM
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

I would say Lilith - Pluto in a negative manifestation in this case, since you don't have a Hades Moon (Moon - Pluto aspect). Peace, love and Gnosis!
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  #6  
Unread 02-08-2018, 06:10 PM
magnolia8 magnolia8 is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Thanks for your feedback. I don't have an aspect between Lilith and Pluto.
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  #7  
Unread 02-08-2018, 07:00 PM
magnolia8 magnolia8 is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Pluto isn't situated in my chart to explain those experiences. I'll continue to believe my 4th house provides the best explanation. I wish I could find more Uranian/Neptunian-influenced 4th-housers to compare.
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  #8  
Unread 02-08-2018, 08:53 PM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnolia8 View Post
Pluto isn't situated in my chart to explain those experiences. I'll continue to believe my 4th house provides the best explanation. I wish I could find more Uranian/Neptunian-influenced 4th-housers to compare.
What is the midpoint of your Moon/Pluto.


Which houses do the Moon and Pluto rue?


Which planets rule your 4th? [what sign is on your 4th cusp?]
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  #9  
Unread 02-08-2018, 10:03 PM
magnolia8 magnolia8 is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Midpoint planet is Jupiter. I recently pondered the significance of this midpoint given that Moon and Pluto natally oppose this 8th-house Jupiter.

Moon rules 11th; Pluto rules 3rd; Jupiter rules 4th (Sagittarius).

I have Saturn in the 4th, conjunct IC, and retro. Uranus and Neptune, too, are retro. I don't think Saturn matters here, though.
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Unread 02-08-2018, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnolia8 View Post
Midpoint planet is Jupiter. I recently pondered the significance of this midpoint given that Moon and Pluto natally oppose this 8th-house Jupiter.

Moon rules 11th; Pluto rules 3rd; Jupiter rules 4th (Sagittarius).

I have Saturn in the 4th, conjunct IC, and retro. Uranus and Neptune, too, are retro. I don't think Saturn matters here, though.
Saturn in the 4th on the IC or not can be bad juju, in sure someone will explain to you what they have explained to me.
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Unread 02-08-2018, 10:37 PM
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

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Originally Posted by Whoam1 View Post
Saturn in the 4th on the IC or not can be bad juju, in sure someone will explain to you what they have explained to me.
I'm aware of what that placement means (although I'm open to additional interpretations) since I think it's rather significant. But I don't think a 4th-house Saturn would explain the oddities of my home (one of those deaths, btw, is suspicious depending on who you ask in my family).

For me, it manifested as growing up in a cramped space (restriction! and not just from hoarding either, but because the home itself was extremely small), poor, no structure, etc. My Saturn seems to describe the more mundane material aspects of my living space. There is also a psychological aspect to this placement, no doubt, but I'm not sure Saturn hits at the weirder/darker parts about my home. By the way, my childhood home and the others we owned were very, very old - how's that for Saturnian, LOL.
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  #12  
Unread 02-08-2018, 10:45 PM
magnolia8 magnolia8 is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

@WhoamI, since you have a Hades moon, do you relate to any of this?

I'd love to get feedback on the shadow mother. As I mentioned, my mom's ex-husband would attempt at times to turn me against her (badmouthing her, and directly criticizing my love for her). She was also totally ostracized by her mother and brother, the former trying to pretend my mother was a bad person. Ha! So there is a little bit of that archetype there. She was treated as an outsider by many but also had a fair share of acquaintances. Eh, that quickly I'm back to thinking the "shadow mother" doesn't really apply.
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  #13  
Unread 02-08-2018, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnolia8 View Post
@WhoamI, since you have a Hades moon, do you relate to any of this?

I'd love to get feedback on the shadow mother. As I mentioned, my mom's ex-husband would attempt at times to turn me against her (badmouthing her, and directly criticizing my love for her). She was also totally ostracized by her mother and brother, the former trying to pretend my mother was a bad person. Ha! So there is a little bit of that archetype there. She was treated as an outsider by many but also had a fair share of acquaintances. Eh, that quickly I'm back to thinking the "shadow mother" doesn't really apply.
My mom lied about my real dad, I had a different last name than my bro and sis and she wouldn't tell me why eventhough I was old enough to spot the difference. My dads sister (my aunt) was a family friend I was told, we visited her frequently and eventually she made my mom spill the beans. My mom also dated various men that were less tha savory people. One of them pushed me off the sidewalk into his rose bush and then yelled at me for breaking his roses. Another attached me my brother and sister when I was 5 (and they were all younger than that) with a scythe dressed as the scream on Halloween night. (He jumped out from behind the door and slashed the bed to bits and laughed about it). He also threatened to kill my moms family because I wanted to go out to eat with them on my birthday when I was 5/6. My mom was also abused by thus people and literally became a showdown mother because it was like she wasn't there. She was always on high and I could tell even at a young age when she was worried or upset (I'm an empath writing this is difficult). She also used to like to scare me she thought it was funny. Our relationship is healed now, but needless to say anyone who try's to throw aside my 8th house Moon Pluto placement is a joke to me. I feel this aspect the most over my sun and moon and rising signs. Also i feel this over my dominant sign/planet. It's almost like anyone who tells my I wrongly associate with the 8th sign/house/ruler on an emotional is saying that I went through all this **** that my mother and her addictions to men and drugs caused and it doesn't matter because I'm a Sun/AC Capricorn so it has to be my dominant thing. Yes I idealize the 8th house, and why shouldn't I?
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  #14  
Unread 02-09-2018, 12:17 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnolia8 View Post
Midpoint planet is Jupiter. I recently pondered the significance of this midpoint given that Moon and Pluto natally oppose this 8th-house Jupiter.

Moon rules 11th; Pluto rules 3rd; Jupiter rules 4th (Sagittarius).

I have Saturn in the 4th, conjunct IC, and retro. Uranus and Neptune, too, are retro. I don't think Saturn matters here, though.
OK, so ponder this:

If Jupiter is on the far midpoint of the Moon/Pluto, that means that it creates a 'conjunction' between Moon/Pluto.

If 2 planets are in a wide conjunction, and another planet opposes that midpoint, it 'brings them together' and creates a conjunction by unifying them by midpoint.

And that unifying planet, Jupiter, rules your 4th.

So I think we found your shadow mother principle. The ruler of your 4th, is in the 8th and opposes the midpoint of the Moon/Pluto.

Jupiter magnifies and strengthens/exaggerates whatever it opposes.


I am not sure why you think Saturn doesn't matter here though. It is conjunct the IC? That is pretty significant, in my opinion.
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Unread 02-09-2018, 12:37 AM
magnolia8 magnolia8 is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

I don't have much time to respond, so:

@whoamI, thanks for sharing your experiences, some of that was a bit intense. I'm glad you and your mother are healing.

@katydid,
After I replied to you, I figured that's what you'd say. I'm still struggling to accept the significance of midpoints. My Moon/Pluto doesn't feel like a "real" conjunction to me, despite Jupiter tying them together, because they aren't abiding by "orb rules." It's just a quirk I'll have to get over.
Why do you believe Saturn matters here? Please share. I'm a bit dismayed that this planet has so much significance in my chart, LOL.
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Unread 02-09-2018, 07:29 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnolia8 View Post
I don't have much time to respond, so:

@whoamI, thanks for sharing your experiences, some of that was a bit intense. I'm glad you and your mother are healing.

@katydid,
After I replied to you, I figured that's what you'd say. I'm still struggling to accept the significance of midpoints. My Moon/Pluto doesn't feel like a "real" conjunction to me, despite Jupiter tying them together, because they aren't abiding by "orb rules." It's just a quirk I'll have to get over.
Why do you believe Saturn matters here? Please share. I'm a bit dismayed that this planet has so much significance in my chart, LOL.
Rules are made to be broken...

It is interesting that you say you do not feel like your wide conjunction between Moon/PLuto is 'real' ----and yet you start a thread kind of implying that you did live through a 'shadow mother' type of difficult childhood, which could be perfectly described by Moon/Pluto opposed Jupiter in the 8th.

But because the Moon might be a couple of degrees out of the orb 'rules', you want to deny that conjunction, even though it is activated by the 'rules' of midpoint activation.

It is OK if you want to reject or deny the conjunction. It is your chart. You are the keeper of your chart.

I am just putting my 2 cents in, and saying that I think the Jupiter is activating that wide conjunction in the 2nd, and creating a conjunction by midpoint.

I guess the best way to decide if it works is to look at the 2nd/8th house issues and decide if you have 'symptoms' described by this aspect.

Moon/Pluto in 2nd--emotional sensitivity,[moon] intensity, obsession, [pluto]with one's body issues, and ones physical form, and one's potential attractiveness. [2nd house]


Opposition to Jupiter in the 8th---maybe a kind of see-saw of emotions surrounding sexuality, personal magnetism, sexual attraction, and sex in general?

Jupiter enhances those feelings but also over reacts and may put too much emphasis upon one's sexuality, one's magnetism, and may reject those same energies at times because of the hyper sensitivity.

Jupiter opposed Moon/Pluto in 2nd/8th can sometimes be seen by others as a 'tease' ---someone who flirts and acts interested, but then shuts down and closes off, irrationally even?
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  #17  
Unread 02-09-2018, 06:05 PM
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
Rules are made to be broken...

It is interesting that you say you do not feel like your wide conjunction between Moon/PLuto is 'real' ----and yet you start a thread kind of implying that you did live through a 'shadow mother' type of difficult childhood, which could be perfectly described by Moon/Pluto opposed Jupiter in the 8th.

But because the Moon might be a couple of degrees out of the orb 'rules', you want to deny that conjunction, even though it is activated by the 'rules' of midpoint activation.

It is OK if you want to reject or deny the conjunction. It is your chart. You are the keeper of your chart.

I am just putting my 2 cents in, and saying that I think the Jupiter is activating that wide conjunction in the 2nd, and creating a conjunction by midpoint.

I guess the best way to decide if it works is to look at the 2nd/8th house issues and decide if you have 'symptoms' described by this aspect.

Moon/Pluto in 2nd--emotional sensitivity,[moon] intensity, obsession, [pluto]with one's body issues, and ones physical form, and one's potential attractiveness. [2nd house]


Opposition to Jupiter in the 8th---maybe a kind of see-saw of emotions surrounding sexuality, personal magnetism, sexual attraction, and sex in general?

Jupiter enhances those feelings but also over reacts and may put too much emphasis upon one's sexuality, one's magnetism, and may reject those same energies at times because of the hyper sensitivity.

Jupiter opposed Moon/Pluto in 2nd/8th can sometimes be seen by others as a 'tease' ---someone who flirts and acts interested, but then shuts down and closes off, irrationally even?
I made the thread with the belief that I relate mostly to growing up in a "stigmatized" home, hence my focus on the 4th house. The "shadow mother" business - eh. *shrugs* Maybe, maybe not. I don't feel I'm objective enough, or have enough information (few memories of childhood), to say either way.

As far as my 2nd house and its issues (including the opposition)....
I'm not seen as a tease, but you're very correct about the rest. I've struggled with severe body dysmorphia that left me homebound and distressed for years. I've denied myself relationships, intimacy, fun, etc., because I felt thoroughly unattractive. (Huh. I just remembered that. I blamed a lack of these things on Saturn, but this was voluntary restriction. How did I forget?) What's interesting is that I'm regarded as attractive by both sexes.
Sex is the most dangerous/potent topic of all, but I will not give detail.
The funny thing is that I ignorantly dismissed my 2nd house in the past, because I couldn't see just how ingrained beauty-worship is in my psyche (this doesn't manifest as wearing makeup, being well-dressed, etc., quite the opposite).
That said, I do have a square between Venus and Pluto. With Jupiter, the planets form a T-square and Venus is the apex. These obsessions could be explained by that? ETA: Venus rules my 2nd house.

Will you share your thoughts about my Saturn here?

Last edited by magnolia8; 02-09-2018 at 06:17 PM. Reason: Vocabulary
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Unread 02-11-2018, 07:56 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

"Will you share your thoughts about my Saturn here?"

I think you said that Saturn was tightly conjunct your IC in Sag.

It is square/opposed your mutable angles.


Saturn conjunct the IC can be very difficult.


Saturn on IC:
Saturn opposed midheaven is the same as Saturn conjunct the nadir or the fourth house cusp, and this is how this aspect will be interpreted. Born when Saturn was at the lowest point in the sky that day, you have a deep fear and a tendency to wall yourself off from others. The source of this fear and separative tendency needs to be made conscious, understood, forgiven if necessary, and then released, or the latter part of your life could be very lonely. Giving more of yourself away and going out to others might be helpful.

Proud of your ancestry, home and family, you need to stop clinging to the past and break the umbilical cord that still holds you to your mother. You may, however, have to carry on the family tradition, or have family duties thrust upon you that curtail your freedom. In this regard you're very responsible and practical when it comes to home and family, even at the expense of your career. Though you may fear to leave it, you'll be happier at some distance from your place of birth. Prone to ulcers, you may also have trouble with indigestion due to an inability to allow yourself to express or even to have certain emotions. Land or real estate can bring in money.


http://www.myastrologybook.com/Satur...unct-nadir.htm


The IC= our family, our roots, our childhood. It is the lowest point in the chart, thus the most 'private, and the most protected.

It is the natural placement of the Moon. So Saturn is not a good fit.

The IC, or Nadir, is the point where we meet the deepest part of ourselves.
It is our family history and psychological roots.

So having Saturn there indicates some negativity, some burdens, associated with our family history and our childhood memories.

You may have blocked some of those memories and that may have changed during the Saturn Return. Sometimes things are recalled and revived at that time.




The IC:

There is a certain amount of karma and destiny inherent in the cardinal points or “angles” (ascendant/descendant, Midheaven/Nadir) and transits to angles are usually life-changing events.

The nadir is where we turn inward for self-examination, where we settle with ourselves and become aware of what lies within us. Our hidden fears, desires, dreams, parts of ourselves that have become lost – all lie at the IC waiting to be discovered. Until we are able to embrace and reclaim these parts of ourselves we cannot manifest our highest aspirations as shown by the Midheaven. Therefore, the IC is really the foundation of the personality and of the chart and the key to unlocking our personal evolution.


Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/...L2YUV77Mlfm.99
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  #19  
Unread 02-11-2018, 11:16 PM
magnolia8 magnolia8 is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Thanks for the information, katydid.

I'll concede that Saturn could explain part of my home's "stigma." It was ugly and dilapidated. Too small for the number of occupants. ETC. The physical condition of my home was humiliating.

As far as the emotional ramifications of a 4th-house Saturn - not disputing that, although "walling off"/deep fear are general chart themes.

I'll say a bit more later, I think.
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  #20  
Unread 02-12-2018, 01:59 AM
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnolia8 View Post
I'll concede that Saturn could explain part of my home's "stigma." It was ugly and dilapidated. Too small for the number of occupants. ETC. The physical condition of my home was humiliating.
Curious since this is also your birth chart, and shows the home that you build for yourself as an individual. Have you taken more of a plutonian approach to your own home based on your other chart configurations? Cleaning binges, throwing everything out?

I do know someone with neptune in the 4th, who is a hoarder and obsessively collects very specific things. Was not raised in a hoarding household though, but the grandparents were hoarders.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 02:56 AM
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

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Originally Posted by ashriia View Post
Curious since this is also your birth chart, and shows the home that you build for yourself as an individual. Have you taken more of a plutonian approach to your own home based on your other chart configurations? Cleaning binges, throwing everything out?

I do know someone with neptune in the 4th, who is a hoarder and obsessively collects very specific things. Was not raised in a hoarding household though, but the grandparents were hoarders.
Interesting question.
I don't always realize things are piling up because I store items in places I don't access (go ahead with the psychoanalysis on that one). Once I "re-discover" such an area, a purge begins. It may or may not stop with that particular area.

Other times I feel the need to discard possessions if I fear that I've somehow become attached to them or if the items represent a part of me from the past.

It's funny that you asked this, because I was asking myself the other day, "what can I get rid of?" I keep a barren living space, so I can't find anything to discard at the moment.

Strangely, I once allowed Trader Joe's grocery bags to pile up in a corner of my apartment, because I thought I might "need" them (I kept even more bags - that I did use - inside of them). I felt suffocated by all that junk but wouldn't remove it, just like a hoarder, I suppose. I couldn't take it anymore and got rid of it all. I've never done anything like that before or since, and I have my theories.
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  #22  
Unread 02-12-2018, 03:15 AM
magnolia8 magnolia8 is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Purging... Would a 2nd-house Pluto lead to bodily purges?

My partner has a 2nd-house Pluto and believes heavily in detoxing at least once a year. He also desires to restrict meal consumption to once a day whenever possible (one large meal that provides required nutrients and then nothing but water).

For me, it's a bit weirder - my mind often produces images of me being ill (I have no desire to act on them, I'm an emetophobe). I didn't understand this for a long time, but I suspect now that this is Pluto wanting to remove the toxic waste inside of oneself.

Last edited by magnolia8; 02-12-2018 at 06:27 PM. Reason: Details
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Unread 02-12-2018, 03:28 AM
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Eating disorders is often pluto in the 6th. Doesn't even need to aspect the moon. Transits of pluto in the 6th can act similarily. starvation diets or extreme dieting of some kind. Mind you, not always. But it's common.

Unfortunately I don't know too much about pluto in the 2nd. However I have a theory, if you'll permit me - since the 2nd house is associated with the throat because of its natural ruler taurus/venus, pluto being there might have something to due with your phobia. (emetophobe) --just a theory.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 04:20 PM
magnolia8 magnolia8 is offline
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

The 6th house makes sense, but the reason I didn't consider it is that my partner's Pluto isn't transiting his 6th house (which is empty in the natal).

Regarding my phobia...
That's what I was alluding to when I asked whether it could be a manifestation of a 2nd-house Pluto. The act of sickness is a disgusting purge just like a Plutonic shock. To be avoided at all costs, LOL.

Last edited by magnolia8; 02-12-2018 at 05:09 PM.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 05:28 PM
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Re: Shadow Mother; Stigmatized Home

Plutos mad at me right now. Something's going down in the transits I bet.
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