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  #26  
Unread 02-04-2013, 03:12 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

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I don't think waldemath is that important...unless it is a cloaked deathstar from an alien race. That could be significant.

The following diagram shows lunar black moon and lunar apogee are equal by geometry (when viewed from earth). http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm

Personally, I would like to see the name Lilith reserved for the asteroid, and Black Moon reserved for the empty focus in lunar ecliptic. My guess, it was this way originally.
Lilith is reserved for the asteroid, since the apogee is actually called Black Moon Lilith, and the invisible planet is called Dark Moon Lilith

But I would disagree with you about DML. Since I've been using it for more than 15 years, I can chart difficult things to it. If you read one of my posts on my website above, I used it to identify illnesses of four famous people. Anything that is associated with it in a chart goes to the dark side of the key word spectrum, unless mitigated in some way. My bet is that you have not used it because, a) you either have to have Ivy's little book with the ephemeris in it, or b) Solar Fire, or c) you have not gone out of your way to find it in the online program.

But each to his own. I reccomend that you start putting DML into your charts and notice its inimical notions. However, to really use it you will probably need to buy Ivy's book on the invisible planet that she thought was real. That explains all about its use.

z

p.s.: Dr. Farr and I both believe that it is a cloaked deathstar.... Good Call!


Last edited by Zarathu; 02-04-2013 at 03:20 PM.
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  #27  
Unread 02-04-2013, 03:24 PM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

I think the focus has shifted over the last 10-20 years, whereas a few decades ago more importance was given to the Dark Moon Lilith or Waldemath's moon, now most of the books and articles about Lilith are on Black Moon Lilith. But still it is just a matter of opinion which is more important. Perhaps they are really quite similar in their qualities and influence on a chart, since also the names are so alike. When the possibility of a second moon (Dark Moon Lilith) first arose, it must have been pretty exciting astrologically, considering it's implications.

I have been observing BML in my chart, especially transits of the slower planets to BML, and these transits have a huge impact on my life and have brought along major changes!
As for DML, i just added it to my chart, according to astro.com (h58), and it ends up in a precarious place- opp. my Pluto-Uranus conjunction and close quincunx to the moon and close semi-sextile Mercury, that seems pretty heavy, going by what has been written about it..

Last edited by Bina; 02-04-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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  #28  
Unread 02-05-2013, 02:47 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

There is much of interest regarding BML, and I think our AW member Frisangel has posted about and and has been looking into it for some time.
However, my experiences regarding Dark Moon Lilith have made me raise my estimate of that factor almost to the level of the Lunar Nodes, as I have posted before, I consider very much like a secondary (mini) South Node (Dragon's Tail), in always pointing out pitfalls, challenges, weakesses, difficulties, in any given chart. And for this purpose-like the SN-it is valuable because it can indicate what we need to be careful about, or to give special attention to...
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  #29  
Unread 02-05-2013, 08:55 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Hi everyone,
There is so much confusion about the glyph used for 'The Black Moon CALLED Lilith'.
I don't want to cause any disturbance regarding interpretation of the point but Bina is right regarding the symbolic glyph used at Astro. com. Other software may use a similar glyph for (other) versions of 'Lilith', yet the 'Lilith' (and its glyph) referred to in the additional box on Extended charts at Astro. com free charts is for, and gives the MEAN position of the 'Black Moon called Lilith.' It is this point upon which my
years of study have been founded. In 2000, after publication of an article in which 'I fondly call it BML' (as per SU, MO, ME, VE etc.,) the letters appear to have become commonplace in useage. In the article I commented that Black Moon called Lilith appears to surface through the characteristics of its opposing sign. This is now referred to as the position of Priapus...the moon's perigee. Yet, the Moon does not have an even regular orbit. It would seem to me that MEAN BML's opposing position would be other than that of Priapus.
I am now attempting to incorporate the meaning of the TRUE position into the study and the difference between the two.

The other versions of the calculated points and their positions have been provided by !40 in post #20.
Asteroid Lilith is listed under #1181 on astro. com. In my humble opinion, its interpretation as a physical object will be other than that for a non-physical calculated point.
For those interested, I can recommend Juan Revilla's website RIYAL, which gives an astronomical explanation of, as well as his work with the points.

I believe the original confusion arose from the French 'La Lune Noire', which was translated as 'Black' as well as 'Dark' Moon.
As I have understood it, the DARK Moon.....with no attachment of the word Lilith...refers to the hypothetical 2nd satellite of Earth supposedly observed during the 17th century. Is this the Waldemath Moon given as H58 on astro. com charts?

Many years ago I read that Ivy Goldstein's work was based upon incorrect calculations, which would therefore place a question mark upon the observations made. I have never read her work, so am unable to form an opinion.

My 2 cents.
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  #30  
Unread 02-05-2013, 01:31 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

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Many years ago I read that Ivy Goldstein's work was based upon incorrect calculations, which would therefore place a question mark upon the observations made. I have never read her work, so am unable to form an opinion.

My 2 cents.
The problem is that its really hard to have incorrect calculations for an object that isn't visible in real space. So Ivy's calculations are as good as Solar Fire's calculations.

But the bottom line is: does the ephemeris that Ivy worked out actually work when you calculate it and put it into a chart? In a recent client chart of a person with Borderline Personality Disorder, I would have expected DML to figure prominently. I was not surprised that the exemplary asteroid, IMO, of BPD which is Dejanira, is actually conjunct DML in the natal chart. And like Dejanira, aspects every other planet in the chart.
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  #31  
Unread 02-05-2013, 07:40 PM
!4C !4C is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

My impression from previous reading, BML is viewed as an anti-moon. Meaning it shows where we go a against our instincts and might suffer consequences as a result.
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  #32  
Unread 02-05-2013, 08:32 PM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Not directly related here, but there are also two other asteroids which I always look at that have an impact similar to DML, and its important to me if they have an aspect to DML because it can augment DML in "special" ways.

The first is Nemesis: where you have your Achiles Heel. showing the source of a problem.

Involves hard lessons learning humility and detachment. It can show lost and separation from one's children or from the fruits of one's labors.

The second is Damocles: Where the sword is often falling on you, or where you have constant stress from transitions, changes of direction, the destruction of the old to make way for the new, the removal of one arrangement of scenery in one's life to make way for a new arrangement, the replacement of an old paradigm with a new one. In a current chart that I am working on, both Nemesis and Damocles trine DML.

Since the inconjunct aspect is the aspect of re-organization, and things costing more in time and energy than they looked like at the surface, I especially look to see if Damocles is tightly aspecting any other angle or planet in the chart IN AN INCONJUNCT ASPECT which would augment its effect big time. And in the current chart its inconjuncting the MH.
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  #33  
Unread 02-06-2013, 05:37 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

My use of the Dark Moon Lilith (position as calculated by astro.com using the "lilith" choice in the big additional objects box) has resulted in numerous "hits" consistent with the "nature" attributed to (Dark Moon) Lilith, in the literature; see for example my references (earlier in this thread) to DM Lilith's relationships in the Newtown school shooting massacre, and I have found additional DM Lilith connections with that chart, with the charts of 25 of the victims, with the earlier Challenger space disaster, etc etc. I do not know what exactly the astro.com DM Lilith placement-calculations are based upon, but whatever they are they really "work" (make sense in delineations) and I have come to trust them as very effective.

Last edited by dr. farr; 02-06-2013 at 05:39 AM.
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  #34  
Unread 02-06-2013, 11:09 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
My use of the Dark Moon Lilith (position as calculated by astro.com using the "lilith" choice in the big additional objects box) has resulted in numerous "hits" consistent with the "nature" attributed to (Dark Moon) Lilith, in the literature; see for example my references (earlier in this thread) to DM Lilith's relationships in the Newtown school shooting massacre, and I have found additional DM Lilith connections with that chart, with the charts of 25 of the victims, with the earlier Challenger space disaster, etc etc. I do not know what exactly the astro.com DM Lilith placement-calculations are based upon, but whatever they are they really "work" (make sense in delineations) and I have come to trust them as very effective.
This is very interesting, Dr. Farr.
As I understand you, it is the MEAN position you are using, as I do ? It is merely a question of whether one chooses to call the astrological point Black or Dark ? You are NOT referring to, or using the Waldemath Moon...the supposed 2nd satellite of Earth?

It has been observed that progressed or transiting MEAN Black/Dark Moon called Lilith coincides with the periods when 'one gives up the ghost'; i.e. the return to the 'non-physical' and 'formless' state. Its position has also coincided with the period of mourning by the grievers. Is the wearing of black merely coincidental? I've also seen it in charts of murder victims.

And what about the 'ghost (image) that haunts', or the non-physical return?
There are some extremely interesting correlations with the positions of natal, secondary progressed, solar arc and transiting Black Moon Lilith, according to how one interprets them, and the current development around England's long deceased King Richard III and his skeletal remains that have finally been found.
Literally, a ghost from the past.
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  #35  
Unread 02-06-2013, 02:26 PM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Has anyone come across progressed transits to Lilith/natal points? I am refering to black moon lilith. I ask because I've been watching a few charts after I noticed my own progressed Sun conjuncting progressed Lilith which coincided with a year of complete weirdness. I also noticed, a long lost friend and I bumped into each other while she was having the same progression, and another friend also had it a year before. Both these people's lives seemed to be turned upside down during those years, both due to romantic entanglements. And mine too. I've lost touch with both these people so I cannot know what happened and what they got from it all. But I must add, during my own year of weirdness, it was a Lilith 'double whammy' with progressed Sun conjuncting progressed Lilith and transiting Lilith conjuncting natal Sun.
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  #36  
Unread 02-06-2013, 08:06 PM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Looks like BML will be an integral part of the jupiter-saturn-neptune water grand trine this july 20th.

Mars-jupiter-BML will be conjunct my natal moon (chart ruler). Saturn will be conjunt my natal uranus.

Looking back on previous BML conjunctions to my natal moon, they were all positive times when I realized that risky changes to my life direction were paying off much better than I expected. During the last one in 2004, uranus was in neptune's current position, so I had both natal and transiting uranus trine my moon.

With saturn sitting on my natal uranus this time, maybe it will be my caution that proves to be the correct action.

Needless to say, BML appears to be neither good or bad, just a turning point indicator...a time of dramatic change. So in that sense it would be similar to the lunar nodes.
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  #37  
Unread 02-06-2013, 10:50 PM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

The triple Mars/Jupiter/Lilith conjuction at 4/5 Cancer all head to oppose the Pluto and trine the Neptune and Saturn on and around 20th July also. Doesn't that make it a kite formation? I'm watching the effects of this, they will make a trine to my natal Pisces Moon. The Mars/Lilith/Jupiter (transiting in 7th house) trio opposed Pluto will t-square to my natal 9 Libra Pluto. I don't think it will be a dull summers day!

I have only ever watched conjunctions from black moon Lilith, just because another astrologer once suggested to me thats why they did, as it doesn't transmit light. I am open to all perspectives. Though I have found most strongly the effects of Lilith when in conjunction to natal spots, namely a few years ago Sun, then Mercury, Venus, Moon, Jupiter. Though, I also feel, the effects of Lilith, when in conjunction to other transiting planets, will add its vibration to those planets which may manifest then through aspects to natal planets.

Anyway, watching for that July configuration!
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  #38  
Unread 02-07-2013, 03:20 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Neptune Rising: Question for clarification: are you using what on astro.com "Lilith" is symbolized (in their charts) by the crescent moon on top of a cross? If so, then this is the "Lilith" I have been using and referring to in this (and other) threads.

Frisiangal: no, I am not referring to Waldemath-at least not according to the calculations @ astro.com: when selecting Waldemath there, the word "Walde" and its degree position comes up, which is seperate from both the oscillating lunar apogee position, which comes up as "osc.L", and from the Lilith that I have been referring to, which is selected from the big box under "additional objects-Lilith" and which comes up as the crescent moon-on-a-cross glyph: for example, in the 8:45 AM May 18, 1927 Bath Michigan school bombing chart (worst school attack in US history with 58 killed), crescent-moon-on cross Lilith ("my Lilith") falls @ 8Libra18, the oscillating Lunar apogee {"Black Moon"} as "oscil.L" falls @ 13Libra07, and Waldemath {"Walde"} falls @ 14Scorpio12. I will add, though, that certainly the oscillating lunar apogee point, and even Waldemath, are intriguing to me and I'll have to start looking at these points more, in the future. But, "my Lilith"-the one I have studied and applied, and which I consider as a kind of "mini-South Node"-is the point symbolized by the crescent-moon-on-a-cross figure.

Last edited by dr. farr; 02-07-2013 at 03:38 AM.
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  #39  
Unread 02-07-2013, 04:30 AM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Just to clarify once more:

Waldemath Lilith = Dark Moon Lilith

and the Lilith listed in the additional objects on astro.com (crescent moon-on-a-cross glyph) is the mean position of Black Moon Lilith (BML) or the lunar apogee.

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  #40  
Unread 02-07-2013, 04:41 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

For those wishing to investigate the Lilith I have been using (crescent moon on a cross symbol), simply always use the Lilith entry in the big box "additional objects" on astro.com; to read about this Lilith (that I have been referring to) the books mentioned earlier (Ivy Goldstein Jacobson's "The Dark Moon Lilith in Astrology" and the Wilson-Ludlam book, "Lilith Insight") would be the reference sources for study.
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  #41  
Unread 02-07-2013, 09:58 AM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Dr Farr, yes that's the one I've been using. A very interesting study
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  #42  
Unread 02-08-2013, 04:53 AM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Although in a decided minority, when looking at transits (to a radical chart) I only consider the conjunctional transits (not the aspects), regardless of whether a planet or Lilith (or the Nodes) are involved (I guess its because the indications are clearer to me this way; I will state that the earliest Western astrology reference to transits, in "Carmen Astrologicum" by Dorotheus of Sidon, 14 AD, only discussed what amount to conjunctional transits, not transits via aspects)

However, I fully use Lilith aspects in event charts and natal charts (when not looking at transits), as well as aspects to (or from) Lilith in symbolic directions, as well as aspects involving Lilith via its Pauline dodek ramification point (in natal and event charts)... I believe that Lilith conjunctions and aspects must be fairly close, with a maximum orb of 5 degrees, for effective (energetic) contact to occur.

I have come to believe that ALL contacts with Lilith (and EQUALLY, with the South Node) are disruptive in nature, whether such contact is conjunctional or aspectual, whether it is a square or a trine, or a quincuncx or a sextile-this belief is largely based upon my understanding of Lilith (and of the South Node) as representing the klippothic energies of CHAOS in the universe, and so, any contact/"channeling" of chaotic energies MUST be disruptive to whatever planet (or Lot, or angular or cuspal degree, etc) is making such a contact.
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  #43  
Unread 02-10-2013, 01:45 AM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Has anyone noticed a relationship regarding either lack of children or something negative regarding children when DML is in the 5th of the natal chart?

Last edited by Zarathu; 02-10-2013 at 04:29 AM.
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  #44  
Unread 02-10-2013, 06:23 AM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

This from astro.com- (edited)

"In the beginning was the Great Goddess, and the Goddess was the Earth, and the Earth was the Goddess...
The Goddess ruled for hundreds of thousands of years...was overthrown and driven under, and the triumph of the most patriarchal of archetypes - Jahwe, God the Father, Allah - was complete in the Judaic, Christian and Moslem worlds. It was only in the tamed form of Mary, Mother of God, that some aspects of the Mother Goddess were permitted to survive...
The figure of Lilith represents one aspect of the Great Goddess. Jewish mythology already puts her into darker realms..."

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm

Is Lilith as we see her today a manifestation of the suppression of the Divine Mother/Goddess in our world? Where masculine/feminine energies are not in balance?
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  #45  
Unread 02-10-2013, 06:38 AM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

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Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post

And what about the 'ghost (image) that haunts', or the non-physical return?
There are some extremely interesting correlations with the positions of natal, secondary progressed, solar arc and transiting Black Moon Lilith, according to how one interprets them, and the current development around England's long deceased King Richard III and his skeletal remains that have finally been found.
Literally, a ghost from the past.
Can you share your findings about this in more detail? Sounds fascinating...
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  #46  
Unread 02-10-2013, 07:27 AM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I have found additional DM Lilith connections with that chart, with the charts of 25 of the victims, with the earlier Challenger space disaster, etc etc. I do not know what exactly the astro.com DM Lilith placement-calculations are based upon, but whatever they are they really "work" (make sense in delineations) and I have come to trust them as very effective.
Wow, look at this. Out of curiosity, I wanted to see where the h58/Waldemath was in the Newtown chart. In addition to Black Moon Lilith (exactly quincunx the Capricorn Moon at 10), Waldemath/h58/aka the "Dark" Moon is at 13 degrees, conjuncting the Moon in the twelfth. So both BML and Dark Moon are connected here as well!
Attached Images
File Type: gif Newtown.gif (56.2 KB, 1 views)

Last edited by Joz; 02-10-2013 at 07:36 AM.
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  #47  
Unread 02-10-2013, 01:05 PM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joz View Post
This from astro.com- (edited)

"In the beginning was the Great Goddess, and the Goddess was the Earth, and the Earth was the Goddess...
The Goddess ruled for hundreds of thousands of years...was overthrown and driven under, and the triumph of the most patriarchal of archetypes - Jahwe, God the Father, Allah - was complete in the Judaic, Christian and Moslem worlds. It was only in the tamed form of Mary, Mother of God, that some aspects of the Mother Goddess were permitted to survive...
The figure of Lilith represents one aspect of the Great Goddess. Jewish mythology already puts her into darker realms..."

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm

Is Lilith as we see her today a manifestation of the suppression of the Divine Mother/Goddess in our world? Where masculine/feminine energies are not in balance?
Interesting point, if an energy is suppressed, it turns dark or negative..
the Goddess energy and worship was suppressed for thousands of years, so it comes through the back door as dark Lilith..

In other cultures, not our western patriarchal society, the Goddess is still worshiped in numerous forms, in India for example there are Kali and Durga, the Goddesses who destroy the demons and also Lakshmi, Goddess of wealth and Saraswati, Goddess of Wisdom, Knowledge and the Arts. I wonder if a culture expresses and worships these archetypes, whether Lilith would be expressed differently there?
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  #48  
Unread 02-10-2013, 02:34 PM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

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Interesting point, if an energy is suppressed, it turns dark or negative..
the Goddess energy and worship was suppressed for thousands of years, so it comes through the back door as dark Lilith..

In other cultures, not our western patriarchal society, the Goddess is still worshiped in numerous forms, in India for example there are Kali and Durga, the Goddesses who destroy the demons and also Lakshmi, Goddess of wealth and Saraswati, Goddess of Wisdom, Knowledge and the Arts. I wonder if a culture expresses and worships these archetypes, whether Lilith would be expressed differently there?
In blue above - This is true, but other cultures also are very patriarchal... Where the Goddesses such as Kali, Durga are worshipped, highlighted in the news recently have shown the current attitudes to females in society. Perhaps, these females have shown a Lilith (positive) type of drive to push past those patriarchal attitudes but been challenged and destroyed by the old patriachal attitude. This very much brings to mind an interesting article here about that awful gang rape. Such tragic circumstances but did indeed bring to light the society, attitudes to females who may not 'conform', as would Lilith herself do. I understand the energy to be a very independant, female vibration, not constricted by anything. Maybe, in a positive light, this tragedy will bring about a change now, in the way these cases are dealt with, and bring more world wide awareness to this. http://darkstarastrology.com/delhi-gang-rape/

The article highlights the significance of Lilith in relation to that society.
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Unread 02-10-2013, 05:02 PM
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

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Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
Has anyone noticed a relationship regarding either lack of children or something negative regarding children when DML is in the 5th of the natal chart?
I don't know if, by DML, you are referring to the Waldemath Moon or the astrological point known as Black Moon Called Lilith. I can only speak of the latter.

On more than several occasions the position of MEAN Black Moon Lilith in the 5th house (creation?) has not coincided with a lack/negativity regarding children rather than:
1) single parent mother, (possibly father, too, although I've not seen this)
2)colour of child other than biological mother,
3) pseudo 'fairy godmother' or 'wicked witch' imagery of non-related blood mother.

As the 5th house is associated with the parent-child relationship, BML in a chart can also provide information regarding one's own attitude towards the (non) parenting one felt to receive.
E.g. In a chart where Sun-Moon were in trine, the 5th house BML Lilith child felt to not get a look in because the parents were so wrapped up in/with each other. There was no jealousy, just the 'not feeling to be part of' or 'feeling ignored'.
E.g. Sun to BML in 5th. The child feels to be 'an extension of' the hero figure of the father. Identity issues are eventually created because the child is only seen as Mr. B's son, daughter, child, and not recognised for who it is in its own right.
E.G. Sun square BML in 5th. No contact at all with biological male parent, who can even remain unknown. This is different to the 12th house Sun, in which, through circumstances, the known biological male parent does not play an active part in the child's life.

Difficulties with the biological mother, terminations or abortions, decisions to remain childless is almost a classic of Moon-BML, especially where Cancer and the 4th house is concerned. With the conjunction there is often no feeling of 'natural bonding' between mother/child, and the child in adulthood is therefore unable to give, or finds difficulty in expressing, that which was never felt to have been received.
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Unread 02-10-2013, 05:17 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Transits of Lilith? Any significance?

There are three of them, but all have different distinct names:

1. Dark Moon Lilith is the hypothetical planet that Waldemath and Ivy Goldstein Jacobson have found to be dangerously inimical. Whether its an etheric planet or a dark matter planet or just a strange weird bad place in space that operates in the ephemeris, no one knows.

2. Black Moon Lilith is the Moon's highest apogee

3. Lilith-A is the asteroid Lilith.

Hopefully people will know which one we are talking about.

Last edited by Zarathu; 02-10-2013 at 05:28 PM.
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