Unaspected sun in leo 14 dignity score

Traditional School of thought;

Check this out, this sun is almost completely un-aspected. (Astrodentist aspect orbs are HUGE!! so ignore them)

the only way i was able to even able to get more info from the sun, was using the antiscion. and even then, and using the antiscion of the moon there are only 2 aspects to the sun. (antiscion aspects - 125* trine, 186 opp Saturn.)

How would this influence persona, my notes are as follows (which are bland and lacking since i live with the person, since I'm trying to avoid personal knowledge influences)

"Shown in purest idea of leo, 11th house, fate, Strongly unmodified leo tendency, desire for ownership, a strong feeling of territory, savage reaction to change in emotions, A fierce personality.

Venus's orb has a 7* overlap with the sun, Which would indicate a soon to apply venus conjunction, not yet in contact with one another motley.

Venus's slight touch, at 2 dignity can be barley felt, but that colors the native's personality more so, then being such a strong leo, would that contact give leo a place to go, for instance another outlet, or another path to apply its fierce attitude, and protectiveness too, basically protective of its heart and who and how it loves?

A "kiss of venus to the ego" basically?

By midpoint, the Sun is closely squaring the Saturn/Mars in Scorpio. Because it just separated from the Saturn, and is applying to the Mars, I would use it in the interpretation. Also because the mars and saturn are both very strong in Scorpio and the aspect is a square, it would seem to be active.

I would also use the Sun/Moon inconjunction, because it is applying, and the Moon is fast. Five degrees when the Moon is applying is not too wide an orb imo.

This does not really feel like an unaspected Sun to me because there are strong connections to the Moon, Mars and Saturn, although slightly wide in orb.

i don't like using wide orbs though, it feels wrong. I looked and the trines it uses, and opositions are off by at least 6 for the opp and 9 for the trine i think.

Unless you have an argument proving otherwise for orbs.

Niplan said:

i don't like using wide orbs though, it feels wrong. I looked and the trines it uses, and opositions are off by at least 6 for the opp and 9 for the trine i think.

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I understand that you might feel it is 'wrong.' However when a planet has no other connections, then IF there is a 5 or 6 degree orb with a STRONG planet
and a STRONG aspect, then it will be felt by the native.

It would be 'wrong' imo to ignore that Mars/ Saturn square from Scorpio just because the orb seems too wide to you. The reason i say that is because one is applying and one is separating, Thus BY MIDPOINT it is activated.

Do what you feel is right, but also keep an open mind. There are astrologers here, myself included, who have 40 plus years experience, and it would behoove you to take advantage of that accumulated knowledge.

What do you mean Midpoint?

Niplan said:

What do you mean Midpoint?

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The Saturn is 10 degrees and the mars is 25 degrees. So there is 15 degrees between them. Cut that in half, 7 degrees approximately. So add 7 degrees to the saturn and you get 17 degrees Scorpio. So the midpoint of the Saturn/Mars is 17 Scorpio, which would be a tight square to the Sun.

according to ' The Combination of Stellar Influences' by Ebertin Witte,
the midpoint of Mars/Saturn =
" Periods of impotence and weakness alternating with periods of brutal or ruthless progress and advancement in life. '
' ALL will directed activity meets with complete resistance , as governed by circumstances."
Tests of strength , disputes, separations, illnesses, to be overcome by males."

Also, the square between Sun and Saturn is 5 degree orb. That is not too wide an orb for a square from Saturn imo.

The Sun is in an interesting position. Let's examine closely.

Is everyone familiar with Besieging?

Besieging is when a planet is caught in between either the two Malefics or the two Benefics.

The Malefics are Mars and Saturn.
The Benefics are Venus and Jupiter.
Comparatively, one indicates destruction and the other ease.

Let us suppose the Sun were at 16* Scorpio, instead of 16* Leo. This I say to demonstrate classical knowledge of Besieging. At 16* Scorpio, this Sun would be in extremely poor condition, weakened by the Malefics, with "no escape." It is like cruel punishment. This native would have to overcome depression and feelings of sorrow. And problems with men and authority would be predicted.

However, since the Sun is besieged not by conjunction, but by a Square aspect, we are in a slightly better position, but not out of the woods, so to speak. The Sun travels from Saturn to Mars, making no other aspects in between. That is important to recognize. This indicates that the ego has experienced much suppression and is weighed down, but in the future will experience an even greater rage.

I say "even greater" because this is a Day chart, and aspects made to Mars, who participates in the Night Sect, are even more malefic. This is because Mars doesn't belong to the Day Sect and will interfere with the decision making process of the government. The "government" of the Diurnal Sect is the Sun, Saturn and Jupiter.

Further, an astrologer well versed in classical technique will understand the virtue of Antiscia, noticing the Sun casts a shadow to 14* Taurus, which is clearly opposite Saturn.

Therefor, Saturn and Mars very strongly influence the Sun, hindering its creative expression.

Also, the orb of the Sun is quite wide, the widest of all planets. Up to 8* on either side, although nothing out of sign counts.

Joseph

Niplan said:

i don't like using wide orbs though, it feels wrong. I looked and the trines it uses, and opositions are off by at least 6 for the opp and 9 for the trine i think.

Unless you have an argument proving otherwise for orbs.

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Interestingly, in the Medieval Period, it was suggested that as long as a planet is not interfered with before reaching the perfection of an aspect--regardless of the length of the orb--the aspect was said to be active.

Within the sign though. Once you leave the sign, things change.

Example:

Suppose the Sun is 28* Taurus, and the Moon is 3* Scorpio. If the Moon doesn't form any aspects before reaching 28* Scorpio (thereby forming an Opposition), the Medievals would said that the opposition is active.

And of course, classically, the only aspects are the Conjunction, Sextile, Square, Trine and Opposition.

Here's why:



Joseph

Niplan said:

Venus's slight touch, at 2 dignity can be barley felt, but that colors the native's personality more so, then being such a strong leo, would that contact give leo a place to go, for instance another outlet, or another path to apply its fierce attitude, and protectiveness too, basically protective of its heart and who and how it loves?

A "kiss of venus to the ego" basically?

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Essential Dignity:
Venus is in her own Triplicity. +3
Venus is in fall. -4

= -1

Accidental Dignity:
In the 12th house. -5
Within 17* of the Sun. -4
Direct in Motion. +4
Fast Speed. +2
Occidental (rose after Sun). +2

= -1

Use Lilly's method to discover a planet's strength. This can be found in any good classical book. Kefer also has a method, although I do not believe it to be nearly as important as using Lilly's.

A planet without strong dignity merely doesn't have the natural strength and support to succeed. It can be overcome only though extreme effort and awareness.

Very good thought processes and overall structure, Niplan. You are a natural. With some more hardcore studying, and quality time under your belt, I predict that are going to be a very successful Artist. Just be sure and stick to the tradition, where all the answers are found. 80% Classical, 20% Modern.

Venus in the 12th represents severe problems with women. An unawareness and lack of confidence in relationships that hinders the ability to make a proper first impression. Only people who know her well are let in. In Virgo, an earth sign, it can symbolize and unhealthy obsession with material things, and the inability to control one's sensual desires. Possible O.C.D. with Mercury in the 12th, as well, a symbol of the need for an unattainable perfection.

Spiritually, we know that what Virgo is searching for can never be found in the world, for her purity is of Heaven. She may become mistaken, fooled by the illusion we live in. Remember the mythology tells us that Virgo had taught the Laws of Wellness to mankind before there was ever sin in the world.

What also needs to be taken into consideration is that Venus is the only planet, including the Sun and Moon, which is traveling at a normal rate of speed. Because of this, Venus gains in power.

Sun = 97%
Moon = 96%
Mercury = 41%
Venus = 118%
Mars = 85%
Jupiter = -49% (rx)
Saturn = 61%

This is very significant. At best, this person comes to terms with their hypersensitivity, and as they heal themselves, they heal the world. The 12th house is the house of Christ Consciousness, but also imprisonment. Here the Sages dwell.

Joseph

katydid said:

Also, the square between Sun and Saturn is 5 degree orb. That is not too wide an orb for a square from Saturn imo.

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I agree. Although it's not so much opinion as it is knowledge of classical astrology.

Niplan said:

(Astrodentist aspect orbs are HUGE!! so ignore them)

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Hellenistic Astrologers do not draw aspect lines, ever.

It helps not to have them, because they are a distraction. Aspect lines keep people from seeing other things. They are like shiny objects to a toddler. Amateurs tend to jump straight into delineating the aspects, missing crucial understanding of the composition of the chart.

With no aspect lines, it forces a person to see the chart in much greater detail. One then uncovers the chart bit by bit this way. At a certain point, you don't even want the lines there, because they are unnecessary clutter.

It may help for clients to see, but I don't use them.

You are full of great perceptions, Niplan.

Joseph

Joseph,
In the picture that you posted, with the drawings of the aspects, there is an inconjunct drawn in, correct?
That confuses me, because I thought traditional astrologers nixed that aspect, but it seems to be included in your drawing above.

p.s
I appreciate your posts here. I almost went traditional, but veered off at one point. Maybe someday I will find my way back...

katydid said:

Joseph,
In the picture that you posted, with the drawings of the aspects, there is an inconjunct drawn in, correct?
That confuses me, because I thought traditional astrologers nixed that aspect, but it seems to be included in your drawing above.

p.s
I appreciate your posts here. I almost went traditional, but veered off at one point. Maybe someday I will find my way back...

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Wow, sorry about that. You are totally right. Thank you for pointing this out. I didn't pay close enough attention to what was being shown. This is probably because I've never seen anyone put the disjunct on the Platonic Aspect Chart.... because it doesn't belong there!

Thank you. I am happy to be present here, I feel that this is a wonderful group.

Perhaps the only reason that everyone doesn't study ancient astrology is because it was banished, and lost! Then what happened was that, in a state of frivolousness, the new system was obscurely constructed. This is clear if you study history.

May the modern astrologer come to know the differences between the systems and choose accordingly. It is only at this point that one can decide to which school they shall adhere, and at which point, I will not be critical of their decision.

Ancient astrology obviously has more rules, and people are lazy. I'm being silly.

The translations of Hellenistic Astrology which are coming out now are absolutely incredible -- and to be part of it is totally exhilarating. Ancient astrology is seriously on the comeback. It wasn't like this even 10 years ago.

Admittedly, I enjoy Evolutionary Astrology, to a large degree. I love it. It is the best of modern astrology. Briefly -- Jeffery Wolf Green uses the South Node and Pluto in combination to show the karma of the soul. This works, I have found, fantastically.

Joseph

May the modern astrologer come to know the differences between the systems and choose accordingly.

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Yes yes Joseph, I'm here!! Never too late to study anything, so after almost 35 years in modern, I might add a few more with traditional as it does show me that it gives loads more information. Now that I have been doing Horary for the last 3 years, I have less problems integrating certain things in natal.

But I do want to keep the inconjunct as it has given me also very much insight over the years and I find it a most interesting aspect. I believe that Lilly did mention it in his book but somehow left it in the closet.

About Evolutionary Astrology, I still have to come to "a good fit" for the Nodes. Too many different opinions, so difficult to integrate satisfactory.

Appreciating your lectures!!

Starlink

Niplan, I moved your thread to this Forum as it is a too advanced subject for Greenhorns. Why did you post there in the first place?? You gave us own input, you dont belong in Kindergarten

starlink said:

Niplan, I moved your thread to this Forum as it is a too advanced subject for Greenhorns. Why did you post there in the first place?? You gave us own input, you dont belong in Kindergarten

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-shruig- :banana:

Joseph you forgot Venus trine jupiter +4 dignity score.

Joseph Ledzion said:

May the modern astrologer come to know the differences between the systems and choose accordingly. It is only at this point that one can decide to which school they shall adhere, and at which point, I will not be critical of their decision.

Ancient astrology obviously has more rules, and people are lazy. I'm being silly.

The translations of Hellenistic Astrology which are coming out now are absolutely incredible -- and to be part of it is totally exhilarating. Ancient astrology is seriously on the comeback. It wasn't like this even 10 years ago.

Admittedly, I enjoy Evolutionary Astrology, to a large degree. I love it. It is the best of modern astrology. Briefly -- Jeffery Wolf Green uses the South Node and Pluto in combination to show the karma of the soul. This works, I have found, fantastically.

Joseph

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I was a 'humanistic astrologer' in the 70's, living in Berkeley,studying the likes of Michael Meyer, Dane Rudyhar and that whole group of geniuses. I became very much a fan of Robert Hand eventually, and had the chance to go to a couple of his workshops. During that time, he spoke excitedly about his journey into the past. He was thrilled about the upcoming translations of Old World Astrology, so I followed up on it for awhile. But it was such a huge step away from what I was in the middle of with clients already. It was hard to go from the psychological, modern day jargon offered by Liz Greene to the more 'backward' sounding terms like debilitated and 'in it's fall.' Everything at the time was about making things 'right' and finding the most positive in a chart, and traditional does not always give us that option.
That is still a problem for me. I like to offer hope and change and progress, and traditional rules and terms do not seem to allow that. Am I wrong?

Niplan said:

-shruig- :banana:

Joseph you forgot Venus trine jupiter +4 dignity score.

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No I didn't.

There is no Partile Trine.

Why is your banana out ?

Joseph

i miss counted.