Feral Planets

JUPITERASC said:

...

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Yes, I know.

In the violent death section, Valens obviously favours the pre-natal lunation and the Fortune/8th sign technique, but if we cast the charts he gives as examples, the 40th day of the Moon in all but two of them (out of eleven given) either have the 40th day Moon with, opposed or square malefics, I don't think this is a coincidence. Valens is not an easy read (deliberately so as you know) and just like Abu Ma'shar he has placed hints to techniques in other places or in his example charts without explicitly stating "this is what I mean!!", I guess he felt it is up to the reader to figure it out. I don't think we can say "well Valens was a compiler so because I don't understand this technqiue, he must only be reporting it", we have to look at what he was saying but also what he was showing when we examine his examples.

I think it is fair to say he tested this technique and that he found it useful, and if he didn't, his own example charts show him to be in error there.

Konrad said:

Yes, I know.

In the violent death section, Valens obviously favours the pre-natal lunation and the Fortune/8th sign technique, but if we cast the charts he gives as examples, the 40th day of the Moon in all but two of them (out of eleven given) either have the 40th day Moon with, opposed or square malefics, I don't think this is a coincidence. Valens is not an easy read (deliberately so as you know) and just like Abu Ma'shar he has placed hints to techniques in other places or in his example charts without explicitly stating "this is what I mean!!", I guess he felt it is up to the reader to figure it out. I don't think we can say "well Valens was a compiler so because I don't understand this technqiue, he must only be reporting it", we have to look at what he was saying but also what he was showing when we examine his examples.

I think it is fair to say he tested this technique and that he found it useful, and if he didn't, his own example charts show him to be in error there.

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What's fair to say is:
that it's fair to say
that is your opinion of Valens based on your understanding of Valens

QUOTES FROM VALENS ANTHOLOGY


'…...For my part, I do not wall myself in with a show of words or a pile of books, but I have “embellished” my <treatise> with conciseness and truth. As a result, my heirs enjoy their inheritance, some progressing far in forecasting by means of careful and accurate study. Others who approach it on a part-time or a negligent basis gain little — except that they do gain a higher and a better profit than those who study with great toil the interminable systems of others.

Since I myself have been a finder of treasures....'

'….and I have found not only the guarded topics, but have also illuminated the hidden topics — my readers must also be aware that, when delving deeply into them, they have discovered what was mystically hidden in darkness. One who enrolls in my school must also know what basis his own horoscope has, and he must apply himself to forecasting after taking into account his active chronocrators, so that he might gain profit or testimony <?>. (If he applies himself <to forecasting > in the chronocratorship of a malefic, he blames the method when he fails through ignorance or the omission of some place.)...'

'….Nevertheless, if he searches with accuracy, he will not fail of this gift, and he will be thought worthy of the honor that any of the “Lovers of Time” may show him, depending on the basis of his nativity. Since I have experienced these things in my own life, I have explained them.

Wherefore one should not blame me or the forecast for the chronocrators, but one should soldier on bravely and gladly under all circumstances, recognizing the level of one’s nativity . It is of no use to live in despair, wishing to equal the fortunes of other men.....'

Konrad said:

.... Valens is not an easy read (deliberately so as you know)...

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QUOTES FROM VALENS ANTHOLOGY

'…..I cannot tell whether the Ancients, although knowing the efficacy of forecasting, were driven by envy to hide this art because of their vainglory and because the human mind finds this art difficult; or whether they spoke in such riddles even though they had not, in fact, grasped what Nature had created, had prescribed, and had bestowed abundantly on mankind after sealing it with Fate. Of all the lovely elements of the numerous great creations in the world, none seems to me to have been begrudged by God for man’s daily use.....'

'….God would not have revealed it if He had not wished to provide it for use. In contrast men have revealed this art only as the wished or as they were able. As a result, when I read over their chapter <on the following topic>, I wonder at the crookedness and the obscurity of their thought. But I reveal whatever I have discovered by my experience, and in addition, I do not wish to conceal whatever I have gone on to discover <after writing my previous pages> this because of the remarkable quality of many forecasts, both good and bad, those happening in a short time or those remaining for a time at a steady state....'

'….Now the following subdistribution will instruct diligent scholars. I have explained it in minute detail since I consider it superior to any other and since I wished to embellish the topic in every way. A general treatment displays a vague outline of details and is easily refuted because of the undisciplined thinking of its students. Let no one shrink away because this chapter is complex, multifaceted, with many rules, but let my reader divinize his nature. For although many <astrologers> have composed many systems, they have put together no solid system....'

JUPITERASC said:

What's fair to say is:
that it's fair to say
that is your opinion of Valens based on your understanding of Valens

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Exactly, which is why began my statement with: "I think...".

As for the rest, I would rather hear what JupiterASC thinks than read blocks of quotes with underlined sentences, or are there some still who would have their readers work hard to understand a simple point?

Konrad said:

Exactly, which is why began my statement with: "I think...".

As for the rest, I would rather hear what JupiterASC thinks than read blocks of quotes with underlined sentences, or are there some still who would have their readers work hard to understand a simple point?

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In the past on this forum, when/if I have stated/mentioned my opinion, I have then been taken severely criticized
- although not on this thread I hasten to add -
FOR NOT QUOTING SOURCES.

I therefore quote sources.
The not so ancient saying:
'You can please some of the people all of the time
and you can please all of the people some of the time
but you cannot please all of the people all of the time' seems apposite in this instance

JUPITERASC said:

In the past on this forum, when/if I have stated/mentioned my opinion, I have then been taken severely criticized
- although not on this thread I hasten to add -
FOR NOT QUOTING SOURCES.

I therefore quote sources.
The not so ancient saying:
'You can please some of the people all of the time
and you can please all of the people some of the time
but you cannot please all of the people all of the time' seems apposite in this instance

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Fair enough.

Does anyone have experience with Jupiter being feral in a natal chart and how it expresses itself? I'm looking for anecdotes (i.e., personal observed experience of one's self or others) so as to get a broader perspective.

I have a personal interest as my Jupiter is feral, in the 7th, in Taurus, sitting in its own bound.

Jupiter wild would be almost impossibly rare. Could you post the chart?

Oddity said:

Jupiter wild would be almost impossibly rare. Could you post the chart?

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Yeah. You bet.

Mercury is co-present in Taurus, and Mars is going to square Jupiter from Leo. By traditional definition, Jupiter isn't wild, or feral.

What is your definition of feral?

Oddity said:

Mercury is co-present in Taurus, and Mars is going to square Jupiter from Leo. By traditional definition, Jupiter isn't wild, or feral.

What is your definition of feral?

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I'm using standard aspects. We can enlarge the orbs and make a near 10º conjunction with Mercury and a near 9º square with Mars, but by my calculations, that's a little too far to make it count. If it were the Moon or Sun, obviously I'd say there was a conjunction but with Mercury, that's a little too far from my experience.

I suppose if you consider whether the planets regard themselves, then it wouldn't be considered feral or wild, but I use smaller orbs than that. Those are way too wide by most accounts. And co-habitation of a sign is useful for determining who disposes both planets but not enough to consider mutual influence. At least I don't think so.

But, you know, I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

I have not heard that definition, at least not traditionally. What you'd need for a wild planet is beyond even void of course, but Jupiter doesn't even meet that criteria. For wildness, it can't see any other planet (even by sign) during its soujourn in a sign.

You've got Mercury and Jupiter in the same sign, and Mars applying to a square (about 6 degrees out) well before Jupiter leaves Taurus.

Oddity said:

I have not heard that definition, at least not traditionally. What you'd need for a wild planet is beyond even void of course, but Jupiter doesn't even meet that criteria. For wildness, it can't see any other planet (even by sign) during its soujourn in a sign.

You've got Mercury and Jupiter in the same sign, and Mars applying to a square (about 6 degrees out) well before Jupiter leaves Taurus.

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Hey . . you're right. It's over 6º That's true. I was thinking 8º and something for some reason, which is, by modern standards, still within moiety. So, yeah, I guess it's not feral.

I always take the the natal chart as be stationary in time in regard to personality and temperament delineation. So I see that you are moving the chart.

I use pretty small orbs, in some respects, so I cut off at 6º orbs for squares unless the Sun or Moon is involved. And I had been looking at it as an "unaspected planet"; however, in traditional terms, regardless of criteria, Mars makes it not so.

I wonder why I keep thinking it was over 8º . . . anyway, thanks Oddity. That's helpful.

Hi,

I'm curious whether Mercury is feral or VOC in this chart. Asc 17 Aqu; Saturn 19 Aqu; Jupiter : 19 Aries; north node: 20cancer; Venus: 29 Leo; Sun: 0 Virgo 07; Mercury: 28 Virgo (no aspects in sign, but does Sun cancel feral state?). Mars: 18 Libra; Moon 25 Libra.
Thank you in advance for your thoughts.