The Manilius Decans

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piscesascendant

Well-known member
Claire19 said:
The decans have to be in the same element.

i.e.

Pisces 0-10 Pisces or Neptune ruled
Pisces 11-20 Cancer or Moon ruled
Pisces 21-30 Scorpio or Pluto ruled
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I don't believe they do. When you get a chance, check out the book, Decanates and Dwads by Stephanie Jean Ennis. Chapter 1, pages 1 - 7 explains the different systems and reasoning behind each. The section explaining the Manilius System of Decanates is very revealing, I quoted the section in a previous post on this thread, I believe.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Note also that in the Jaimini branch of Vedic astrology, the order of the decans is exactly as found in the Manilius system (both the ancient-14 AD-Manilius decans and the Jaimini decans might well have a common, very ancient original source)

This is NOT to say that the elemental decans (ie the ones commonly used in Modernist astrology) are not valid-interestingly, these elemental decans were first elaborated in Vedic astrology, by Parasara (in ancient times), and continue to be used in the majority branch of Vedic astrology (the Parasara branch) to this day (as they are in Western Modernist astrology as well)
 
theV

theV

Well-known member
I was reading about virgo decans and I feel i relate more to the 2nd one saturn one It explain why I get better with cardinal sign like cancer and Capricorn and Aries more than mutable
 
poyi

poyi

Premium Member
SAGITTARIUS
0 - 9:59 = Aries
10 - 19:59 = Taurus
20 - 29:59 = Gemini
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This is interesting, in natal chart, I have 2 planets in domicile which is Venus in Libra and Jupiter in Sagittarius. It is interesting that Jupiter is at 14 degrees 27 within the decan of Taurus then again ruled by Venus in Libra from 1st house of Placidus and 2nd sign of Whole sign. I would think that is a very fortunate combination.

While my Moon in Capricorn being saved as the nocturnal ruler of Earth sign gained a tiny dignity, also is within the degree of Virgo that is ruled by Mercury, Moon does sextile my natal Mercury though in Scorpio still gained a bit of harmony with her decanate ruler.

In Vedic sidereal, I have Leo ascendant, in Manilius Decans, I have Virgo ascendant within the Leo Decan so that again making sense comparing to the sidereal system. I always have Decan in mind, I shall learn to apply this more often in my reading.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
I am refreshing this old thread of mine, since I have made reference in recent posts to the Manilius Decans which I use (and which have NOT been used even in Traditional Astrology since the time of Valens!), and which are also used in the minority vedic Jaimini school of practice (in India) up to the present date.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
I am refreshing this old thread of mine, since I have made reference in recent posts to the Manilius Decans which I use
(and which have NOT been used even in Traditional Astrology since the time of Valens!),
and which are also used in the minority vedic Jaimini school of practice (in India)
up to the present date.
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food for thought, thanks dr. farr :smile:

Here it may be worth noting a point that David Pingree made
in his review of Goold’s translation of the Astronomica
which is that while Manilus’ work is partially meant to be instructional

“…its principle purpose
seems to have been to delight its audience with poetry
and to arouse admiration for the poet by its cleverness… (Pingree 1980, p. 263).”

In other words
Manilius may have been more interested in creating an impressive work of art
than he was in faithfully reporting the techniques of the astrological tradition :smile:
Even though Manilius is one of our earliest surviving sources
about the practice and techniques of Hellenistic astrology
in several areas the approach that he outlines is unusual
when compared with other astrologers from that period.

This has led to some debates over the reliability of Manilius
as a source for understanding the practice of Hellenistic astrology.

one wonders therefore as to the source
of Manilius Bounds

With your vast store of historical astrological knowledge dr. farr
you are likely able to clarify this factor for us
 
D

dr. farr

Well-known member
Pinegree was not an astrologer, and his opinion merely echoes that of Gould relative to Manilius purpose in writing the Astronomica: a simple reading of the text clearly illustrates that this books purpose was to serve as an astrological instructional guide.

One might dismiss the Manilius Decans as being his own eccentric invention EXCEPT for the FACT that the SAME DECANS had been used in the most ancient school of jyotish, the Jaimini astrologers, long (at least a few hundred years) prior to Manilius's time; and that was in ancient INDIA, not at Rome (where Manilius wrote his book); Marcus Manilius might have been the grandson of another Manilius, who was brought to Rome from Antioch (as a slave), but who founded a school of astrology in Rome after his freedom; thus it is possible that our Manilius and the instructions in his book, express the outlook of an earlier astrological school from Antioch (and note that Valens was from Antioch too), which might have been itself influenced by some of the teachings of the Indian Jaimini astrological school; we do find several schools of thought and practice in Greco-Roman times, but after Ptolemy the "Alexandrian" school came to dominate, and we have little remaining literature from the other early Greco-Roman astrological schools, except the Astronomica of Manilius.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
Pinegree was not an astrologer, and his opinion merely echoes that of Gould relative to Manilius purpose in writing the Astronomica: a simple reading of the text clearly illustrates that this books purpose was to serve as an astrological instructional guide.

One might dismiss the Manilius Decans as being his own eccentric invention EXCEPT for the FACT that the SAME DECANS had been used in the most ancient school of jyotish, the Jaimini astrologers, long (at least a few hundred years) prior to Manilius's time; and that was in ancient INDIA, not at Rome (where Manilius wrote his book); Marcus Manilius might have been the grandson of another Manilius, who was brought to Rome from Antioch (as a slave), but who founded a school of astrology in Rome after his freedom; thus it is possible that our Manilius and the instructions in his book, express the outlook of an earlier astrological school from Antioch (and note that Valens was from Antioch too), which might have been itself influenced by some of the teachings of the Indian Jaimini astrological school; we do find several schools of thought and practice in Greco-Roman times, but after Ptolemy the "Alexandrian" school came to dominate, and we have little remaining literature from the other early Greco-Roman astrological schools, except the Astronomica of Manilius.
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Thanks dr. farr, given Ptolemy is said to have "invented" his own terms
certainly worth checking out whether Manilius may have as well :smile:

HOWEVER

clearly no coincidence that the same decans Manilius used
had been used in Jaimini astrology
the most ancient school of Jyotish
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
good info, as always, Dr. Farr.

My understanding is that the decans originated in ancient Egypt. They were originally based upon the heliacal risings of particular stars that appeared at 10-day intervals. Which sort of works, if we consider decans today as 3 10-degree sectors of a 30-degree sign or 30-day month. (The Egyptians added 5 inter-calculated days to their calendar.)

You are aware, but perhaps not some of the others, that a number of ancient societies used the night sky as a giant outdoor calendar, and they tracked the risings and settings of particular fixed stars and asterisms to determine dates for agriculture and religious festivals.

I think Egyptologist/astrologer Joanne Conman talks about the ancient Egyptian decans in some of her articles:

http://independent.academia.edu/JoanneConman

Firmicus Maternus (4th century CE, Mathetheos) seemed to have some familiarity with the Egyptian system, but implied that it was based in religious secrets, so he couldn't say too much about the decans. I believe I read somewhere that the decans were the basis of the Egyptians' celebrated medical knowledge.

I'm traveling now and don't have my copy of the Bram translation with me, but maybe somebody else here has it and can say more.

http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/astrologers/firmicus-maternus/

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/firmicus.html

Probably what happened was that the Hellenists who were not privy to the esoteric origins of the decans declassified them into simple 10-degree sectors of the signs.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
waybread said:
good info, as always, Dr. Farr.

My understanding is that the decans originated in ancient Egypt. They were originally based upon the heliacal risings of particular stars that appeared at 10-day intervals. Which sort of works, if we consider decans today as 3 10-degree sectors of a 30-degree sign or 30-day month. (The Egyptians added 5 inter-calculated days to their calendar.)

You are aware, but perhaps not some of the others, that a number of ancient societies used the night sky as a giant outdoor calendar, and they tracked the risings and settings of particular fixed stars and asterisms to determine dates for agriculture and religious festivals.

I think Egyptologist/astrologer Joanne Conman talks about the ancient Egyptian decans in some of her articles:

http://independent.academia.edu/JoanneConman

Firmicus Maternus (4th century CE, Mathetheos) seemed to have some familiarity with the Egyptian system, but implied that it was based in religious secrets, so he couldn't say too much about the decans. I believe I read somewhere that the decans were the basis of the Egyptians' celebrated medical knowledge.

I'm traveling now and don't have my copy of the Bram translation with me, but maybe somebody else here has it and can say more.

http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/astrologers/firmicus-maternus/

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/firmicus.html
Click to expand...

In particular
the MAYANS :smile:
are famed for their noting of the transits of VENUS
long before COPERNICUS



plantillas-tatuajes-calendario-maya.jpg
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member


Dr Benjamin Dykes points out at least two traditions of decans from the hellenistic era.
One based on the Chaldean order (planetary speed)
and the other based on the triplicity rulers by sign. http://www.bendykes.com/articles/decans.php

Deborah Houlding on the origin of the decans : http://www.skyscript.co.uk/heritage/egyptians2.html

The Chaldean order system seems to have been the earliest system
and became mainstream in later medieval astrology.
Although the Roman astrologer Firmicus Maternus (4th Century CE) seems to have used the triplicity system
and Indian astrology seems to have adopted the triplicity system of decans
as its main approach from quite an early stage.
Although there was certainly no astrological consensus about the use of plantary decan rulers :smile:
the use of the decans in assessing physiology
seems to have been quite an ancient technique.
general discussion of the astrological approach to physiology:

Regulus Astrology: http://regulus-astrology.com/pdf/WP%20on%20Physiognomy%20-%20History%20and%20Sources%2020100420.pdf

Bernard Eccles: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/physiognomy.html

The decans in mundane astrology.
In his work on eclipses called Annus Tenebrosus
William Lilly delineates eclipses by individual decan: https://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2006/11/28/annus-tenebrosus-a-peek-behind-the-scenes/
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
The Chaldean (Babylonian) system is not the oldest form of decans. Decans stars appear on Egyptian coffin lids as a version of their star clocks and calendars by the late 3rd millenium BCE. These are different than the terms, and loosely correspond to the faces of essential dignities tables.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
waybread said:
The Chaldean (Babylonian) system is not the oldest form of decans. Decans stars appear on Egyptian coffin lids as a version of their star clocks and calendars by the late 3rd millenium BCE. These are different than the terms, and loosely correspond to the faces of essential dignities tables.
Click to expand...
Denderah-couleur.jpg
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
I strongly lean toward the idea that Hellenist astrology derived decans (later called "faces") in some way, from Egyptian sources, and I also lean to the idea that Hellenist astrology also likely derived the concept of the houses from Egyptian sources (linked to the Egyptian concept of the Duat, or "underworld")

However, what about a possibly Jaimini (Indian) influence on Manilius relative to his decans-can we try to say that India derived its decanate-concept from Egypt?
Well, one thing: it is a FACT that there were considerable contacts in the VERY ancient times between Egypt+Sumeria (Mesopotamia)+the Indus River Valley civilization+the "Dravidian" culture of South India: there was extensive trade among these very ancient civilization (predating the time of the Greeks), so perhaps there was also an exchange of IDEAS as well...
 
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