Please Read Surgical Chart, I am Terrified

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Frisiangal

Well-known member
waybread said:
I somethings think the Dutch and American systems are a little different, ……………. Leo does rule the spine in American astrology, …………….but if Frisiangal's system ………...
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Yet it isn't my system, but a general rule regarding the physical collaboration between opposite signs. The system was illustratively depicted and explained in the first astrology book I ever picked up, 'The Compleat Astrologer', that led me into astrology. I assume the system finds its source in traditional/mediaeval astrology (or earlier) lore, and it is regularly referred to in medical astrology. Sign refers to region (anatomy), sign ruler(planet) refers to function(physiology). I have never heard or read it questioned before.

My queries to TTD were more from learning a possible cause of, and reason for her discomfort than from the surgery itself. The event chart was for Seattle. Some astrologers would consider transit/progressed charts in accordance with birth place more significant.
Venus is also part of the mutable grand cross. With its connection to the signs within vertebrae rulership, I am curious if it has any significance. :smile:
 
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TinyTiny Dancer

Well-known member
Frisiangel,

Yup, did it again! I’m trying to figure out how to work writing a post and then going back to the person’s post to see what they said. Then BAM, you’re dropped. That is rediculous on an astrology forum because 99% of us are researchers and wool gathers.

So before I loose this, Unique Astrologer was absolutely correct when he called. you the go to medical astrologer!

When I was 2, I was diagnosed with JRA. As a 20 year old, I developed sero negative rheumatoid arthritis. I have taken every kind of shot or pill, food or supplement and I keep loosing bone. Almost but not quite to the point of osteoporosis. Plus when they try to fuse bone surgically, it doesn’t work. I have had 7 surgeries like that and it doesn’t work.

I have most pain in L1-2 but that was before sciatica hit. My first surgery was to fuse L3-4 and L4-5. That didn’t fuse and now the want to fuse L2 all the way to the pelvis. They even saidthat they will have 4 bags of blood and 4 bags of plasma in the OR because they think it will be bloody! If that isn’t enough to scare you, I don’t know what will.

I don’t want to loose this so I’ll sign if but if I find that you asked something else, I’ll write.

K
 
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TinyTiny Dancer

Well-known member
Frisiangel,

The Compleat Astrologer was my first book, too! It wasn’t an easy book for a newbe, so I got books by Robert Hand. The CA book is still in my library.

Unique Astrologer was correct. You are the go to Medical Astrologer.

But I would really like to learn about whatever is system that you use for Medical Astrology. I lived on the East Coast for 40 years and they really make a face if you mention astrology. They then turn and walk away, quickly. So most of my knowledge is from books. But if you don’t know which books or authors to study, you just have a partial knowledge. That’s where I am.

I am so greatful for all of your very accurate thoughts.

Kate
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
TinyTiny Dancer said:
Frisiangel,

Yup, did it again! I’m trying to figure out how to work writing a post and then going back to the person’s post to see what they said. Then BAM, you’re dropped. That is rediculous on an astrology forum because 99% of us are researchers and wool gathers.

K
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There are a number of ways you can 'copy' a post and add your own remarks in a reply. If you are not sure of how to write a reply 'within' the text of a given post, your best bet would be to copy the poster's complete text and make a word processor/document of it. You can then answer at your leisure within the document and delete whatever you're not replying to. Copy the finished word document, open a reply window here, and and then 'paste'. Above the reply window are the icons that enable you to use quotes (box with arrow to right) by scrolling over the selected portions of the original poster's text.

Scrolling down from the reply window also shows you the post(s) to which you want to reply. You can also copy and paste in that way.

If you go out of your reply and return, you do indeed lose all the text. Don't know why this is. I've taken to copying every time and open a new window!
I've now discovered the ease of a word document:whistling:
 
Oddity

Oddity

Well-known member
If it's possible, you might want to reschedule this. I have some concerns about the surgery chart.

The moon is combust (conjunct the sun), and that's notorious for missing things. I don't like to see it in a medical chart.

You are the planet ruling the first house, Jupiter. In its own sign, which is good, but in the 12th house, which isn't very strong - it could just be indicative of your hospitalisation. Saturn, which rules your bones, is also strong, and not badly placed, so that's to the good.

I dislike that Jupiter conjuncts and receives the moon, which rules the eighth house (which is surgery generally, but still, not a good aspect for this).

Mars isn't horrible in Pisces, though it's better there at night than in the daytime. I also don't like that he's squaring the sun, especially given that the sun rules the spine and heart.

The surgeon is Mercury (working from tradition here, patient is the first house, doctor is the seventh, cure is the tenth). And he's retrograde in the 12th house. Or the both of them are, in your case. Again, weakness, again, in a place where they aren't properly seeing what's going on.

Venus, the cure, is in Scorpio, where she's detrimented, which isn't actually the worst, but it's not a good sign.

I think the surgery might not turn out as well as you hope. I'd feel a little better about it if the surgeons weren't in such an afflicted position, but they are.

I do wish you the best with it, the chart may just be indicating that this is a difficult surgery that won't give optimal results.
 
F

Frisiangal

Well-known member
TinyTiny Dancer said:
Frisiangel,
When I was 2, I was diagnosed with JRA. As a 20 year old, I developed sero negative rheumatoid arthritis. I have taken every kind of shot or pill, food or supplement and I keep loosing bone. Almost but not quite to the point of osteoporosis. Plus when they try to fuse bone surgically, it doesn’t work. I have had 7 surgeries like that and it doesn’t work.

I have most pain in L1-2 but that was before sciatica hit. My first surgery was to fuse L3-4 and L4-5. That didn’t fuse and now the want to fuse L2 all the way to the pelvis. They even saidthat they will have 4 bags of blood and 4 bags of plasma in the OR because they think it will be bloody! If that isn’t enough to scare you, I don’t know what will.

K
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Thank you so much for offering this information, Kate. I cannot begin to imagine the pain you must live with, let alone the fear of further surgery. If you go through with it, I do hope it will bring some relief to you.

Arthritic difficulties see an influence from Saturn.
The hip/pelvis region dominant with sciatica falls under Sagittarius. From what I have come to understand, its cause can originate from a change in style of walking (agility/mobility= Gemini) whereby pressure (Saturn) is placed upon the sciatic nerve.
Once again the mutable cross seems to be significant.

All the best to you.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
I've gotten most of my medical astrology from books by Eileen Nauman, Jane Ridder-Patrick, and Diane Cramer. In medical horary, from J. Lee Lehman's Martial Art of Horary Astrology.

I think the idea of combining sign polarities is more of a modern astrology concept. I wouldn't deny its efficacy, just that the traditional "man of the anatomical signs" didn't use them.
 

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waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Just a bit of background on the "zodiacal man" or anatomical "man of the signs." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Man . It is also the basis for the Ebertins' anatomical degrees. https://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrological-information/degree-anatomical-correlations.php I wouldn't dispute that looking at a sign and its opposite gives good, and possibly even better results in medical astrology: just that there is a longstanding tradition of using only one sign for different areas of the body.

Oddity does traditional western astrology; and Kshantaram does Vedic, so of course there will be diffierent assumptions and results. There are also differences of opinion on how best to convey a chart reading.

Anyway, the main thing is to give Kate the best insights possible, and if a system that I don't use does that, then I support using that other system.
 
K

kshantaram

Premium Member
kshantaram said:
in case observations add value for reference and consideration, to adapt as relevant,
do share-discuss pointwise salient features how true-insightful-helpful-prospective :


event chart :

sat own cap first house, protective of health-physique;
sat elevated aspect libra 10th for success;

sun-moon lords 8th over 12th, success amidst adversity;
jup own sag 12th, success amidst adversity;

jup trine aspect leo 8th, protection from danger;
jup trine aries 4th, protective of heart-lungs etc

pars fortuna over 12th suggestive of major losses/expenses to note;
sat 2nd lord negating to cap first is again suggestive of financial constraints;



while mer lord 7th over 11th scorpio, gains from spouse/business partners;
mer lord 9th for luck over 11th for gains; venus aspect own taurus 5th for luck etc;

mer-venus scorpio research-occult-forensic-pharmacy aptitudes;
mer lord 6th over 11th, need for extra efforts towards gains;
mer placed 6th from 6th for health issues?
wonder whether urological-skin issues involved;


Natal chart jup transit own sag 4th trine aries 9th supportive of luck;
and trine leo asc, protective of health and general well-being;
jup lord 5th for luck-edu-children-position-advisory roles;

ketu separative SNode transit acq 6th, accident prone; job separation;
pain-injury-surgery legs-sciatica-hips-intestinal etc
ketu transit mer impacting nerves/nervous system, skin;
heading towards natal jup cap 6th, knees-liver etc;
prayers to Christ, offer red flowers, fri evenings;

sat transit cap 5th, seeking change, but stuck;
negating employment prospects;
observe fast sat evenings taking milk-fruits;


hope these observations help; hope things go off well with jup aspects;
prayers to saint of faith, offer yellow flowers sat evenings;


do promptly ack, share salient pointwise feedbacks,
which could become interesting on this thread to learn of,


wishing well, kshantaram
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TinyTiny Dancer

Well-known member
Oddity,

You are right. Everything that you mentioned, I saw but I just thought that I was weird. It is now canceled. I will be calling them tomorrow. I am going to a top 5 U.S. hospital. I have no idea how I will do it but this is too serious.

Thank you so much for your efforts. I know what it takes to analyze a chart.

I will let everyone know what happens.

Kate
 
F

Frisiangal

Well-known member
waybread said:
I wouldn't dispute that looking at a sign and its opposite gives good, and possibly even better results in medical astrology: just that there is a longstanding tradition of using only one sign for different areas of the body.
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I believe this is where any misunderstanding may have arisen ( retro. Mercury?). I didn't say that Aquarius rules the back, but that there was a collaboration between the Leo-Aquarius axis. The same view (not mine) appears to cover the working relationship between cardinal, fixed, and mutable signs.

I googled for the Derek and Julia Parker book, The Compleat Astrologer, but there is no reference section to any part of the book. I haven't yet found my own copy of the book in the normal places, but will keep looking.

I've gotten most of my medical astrology from books by Eileen Nauman, Diane Cramer
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I googled Nauman's references for the spine, but her book 'Medical Astrology' (which I don't possess) had over 700 on-line pages. It was impossible to find.
I am quoting her words from the website pages for her work in this area,
'Finally, Aquarius has domain over the spinal cord protected by the back vertebrae.'

The index page of Diane Cramer’s Medical dictionary does not even list the vertebrae.
From her perspective they are not a [functional] part of the human body?????:andy:

TinyTiny Dancer
I saw but I just thought that I was weird. It is now canceled
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Wise decision.:wink:
 
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waybread

waybread

Well-known member
I just checked my hard copy of Nauman, Medical Astrology, and this book is not well indexed. (A problem in most astrology books.)

For the sign Aquarius, she differentiates between bones (ankle, tibula, fibula;) muscles in that area, and blood vessels in that area. Mostly Aquarian health problems relate to the ankles and lower legs.

She says that Aquarian functions that are little known are the oxygenation of the body, blood circulation in general, rods and cones of the eyes, and the spinal chord protected by the back vertebrae.

I've also got a copy of the Parkers' Compleat Astrologer. They mention the traditional ("since time immemorial"-- a bit of a stretch) rulerships, and add that "more recent... medical thought has underlined the relationship between the Signs and the glandular and nervous systems. These often relate through polarity..."

I think this is how Aquarius, opposite Leo as the traditional ruler of the back, comes to dominate the spinal chord in more modern medical astrology. Further, the Parkers give Virgo as ruling the nervous system, so I suppose one could look at a chart both ways.

Oddly, the Ebertin degrees give all kinds of attention to parts of the heart, but very few to the spine, and these didn't seem relevant to Kate's chart.

But I say of various methods, if it works, let's use it.

Maybe Oddity can tell us if these are part of traditional western medical astrology. Nauman lists all kinds of conditions that would have been unknown to doctors before the advent of modern medicine.
 
F

Frisiangal

Well-known member
waybread said:
I think this is how Aquarius, opposite Leo as the traditional ruler of the back, comes to dominate the spinal chord in more modern medical astrology.
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This is how you now appear to interpret what you have read, Waybread. Aquarius has rulership over the vertebrae, not the cord. I have never read anywhere that Leo has rulership over 'bone material'.

I've also got a copy of the Parkers' Compleat Astrologer …………..
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With the illustrated page(s) of anatomical man 'dissected' into the sign and planet rulerships? Did you read the Parkers' explanation of the sign and planetary polarities with each other?
In my search for the book (still not found), I picked up and checked with Jansky's 'Nutrition and Health'. Sigh of relief. He has a whole chapter dedicated to the polarities of sign and planet and their influence upon each other.

Oddly, the Ebertin degrees give all kinds of attention to parts of the heart, but very few to the spine
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In Leo, yes. Did you not think to check Aquarius ….18-21 degrees?

When last googling I came across a reference to 'Hermetic' astrology's influence in medical astrology. Maybe polarity saw its source from there?

It's once again a case of each individual's mindset in how astrological symbolism can be interpretted.
I think we've now covered ours sufficiently.

:smile:
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waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Frisiangal, I don't wish to debate you on the particulars of medical astrology on Kate's thread-- dedicated to her particular issues. I've put forth a conciliatory view that more than one system is credible. Do you disagree? Maybe a new thread???

Did you have a chance to read the material I linked above on the "man of the signs" (the "zodiacal man"?) I also use Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book, BTW.

Jane Ridder-Patrick, A Handbook of Medical Astrology, 2nd ed. p. 99 says that Leo rules "the heart, the spine, and the eyes." Also the cell nucleus. "Disorders of the spine or spinal chord" belong to Leo. She gives a varied list of Aquarius rulerships, but none of them relates to the spine, (unless I missed something.)

If you wish, I can quote Nauman verbatim, but I believe I accurately paraphrased her.

The Parkers' Compleat Astrologer was one of the first astrology books I purchased. I think it's fine that they're into polarities, but obviously, not every professional astrologer is. P. 27, incidentally, says that "The sun traditionally rules the heart, back, and spinal column." P. 30: "When thinking about the sun-sign, always look, too, at the polar or opposite signs, which is important and revealing."

Do I agree with everything they wrote in their 6 pages on medical astrology? No. While I think many health problems are caused or exacerbated by one's psychological/emotional state, I don't think that's true for many injuries and illnesses.

They also say to look at progressions, something I didn't do but could for Kate's nativity.

Thanks for drawing our attention to the Aquarian Ebertin degrees.

The Ebertin degrees that I linked on-line, above, seem to have a typographical error for Aqua 17-21, but Ridder-Patrick gives the lot to the "spinal nervous system."

I'm not seeing a "ping" with these degrees on the surgery date chart, but Kate's natal, with Mercury at 19 Aquarius, is within that zone. I'd be curious to learn whether previous injuries or surgeries hit that sensitive degree.

But we already knew from the get-go that Kate has major back trouble.

Interestingly, Ridder-Patrick cites an alternative anatomical degree system (Wemyss) that incorporates polarities, but it gives those Ebertin degrees entirely to the skin!

Which is why I think, that while it's possible to be erroneous in matters of analysis, clearly there is more than one method of chart interpretation in modern western astrology; let alone in comparison to Vedic and traditional western.
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
Waybread:
clearly there is more than one method of chart interpretation in modern western astrology; let alone in comparison to Vedic and traditional western.
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You said the same in an earlier post, to which I agreed in last para. of my previous post. At least we agree upon that.:smile:

I can only interpret a chart through the channels from which I learnt, which includes the (recommended) work of those M.A. authors whose views are based upon their medical knowledge. The disclaimer I place in replies to medical queries states through which channels my views are based.

There appears to be a general query as to the difference between the spine and the backbone. My own view is that the spinal cord is associated with Leo. The bone vertebrae covering (protecting) it is associated with Aquarius.

I've spent the morning delving into the ADB at Astro.com. Searching under 'vertebrae' (admittedly, mostly through accident) showed a strong natal influence in Aquarius. Searching under 'spine' (spinal cord) produced the Leo influence.
Maybe that's the key to the Leo-Aquarius axis?

:smile:
 
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TinyTiny Dancer

Well-known member
Oddity,

I thought that I answered your message but maybe not.

Your analysis backs up what I thought, so the surgery is cancelled. I really have no idea what I’m going to do. But hopefully, Dec. 6th will be a peaceful day.

I will keep folks up on what I decide. Thank you to everyone that has helped!

Kate
 
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TinyTiny Dancer

Well-known member
Oddity,

Why did you say, Venus rules the cure? Is Venus the ruler of a certain house? How do I find that? Is it like mercury ruling the doctor or is it like the sixth house ruling how recovery goes and the ruler of the sixth is Saturn.

Oh, I wish that I could follow you around for a week. I could learn so much. Well, I have to content myself with prowling this forum to learn everything that you folks know.

Kate
P.S. I am going to try and find the books you have mentioned.
 
Oddity

Oddity

Well-known member
Hi Kate -

I do traditional astrology, and if you're looking at a chart for a medical procedure, the first house (and its ruler) is the patient, the seventh house and its ruler is the physician, and the tenth house and its ruler is the cure, or how successful the treatment is likely to be.

You also look at the general significators, like the eighth and Mars for surgery, or whichever planet rules the conditions.

I do wish you all the best, and am happy that you've rescheduled this. Keep us posted as to what happens.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Kate, you might want to look around for a really good professional astrologer to recommend some good dates, or at least things to look for, for a new surgery date. However, the doctor/hospital schedule the surgery, not you; so you probably can't arrange for a "designer" time and date. Failing that, you're in a big enough city that you might find another surgeon in whom you have more confidence.
 
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