Ptolemy's "strength" of Planetary dignities

In Christian Astrology, Lilly repeatedly refers to the strengths of planets as (paraphrasing here) "strong, moderate, and weak."

The question I have is, what makes "moderate?" I understand strong and weak.

So for example; Mercury in triplicity, being it's only essential dignity. Or Saturn in it's terms, again it's only dignity. Are these "moderately" fortified planets? Or on the weak side? Or Jupiter in detriment, in both it's terms and faces? Would that still be counted as weak, or would the minor dignities cancel out the more major one?

And, in reference strictly to Lilly's writings (possibly others) as it pertains to the strengths in certain scenarios, do we count the accidental dignities of the houses? Or only when he explicity instructs you to do so?

Although no fan of Lilly's (forgive me!), but nonetheless taking planetary strength/debility into account (to a certain degree), I have found simply taking the totality of essential and accidental dignities/debilities all combined into account, has provided me with the clearest insight relative to planetary strengths.

I guess you're looking for hard and fast rules, MSO?

So for example; Mercury in triplicity, being it's only essential dignity. Or Saturn in it's terms, again it's only dignity. Are these "moderately" fortified planets? Or on the weak side? Or Jupiter in detriment, in both it's terms and faces? Would that still be counted as weak, or would the minor dignities cancel out the more major one?

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The way you're figuring it makes sense to me.

When you put things in the perspective of actual practice... considering how few charts I see have more than a couple rulerships or exaltations, I would say triplicity, terms, and face dignities are moderate dignities. Anything better than fall, detriment or peregrinity (is that a word? It is now).

Or Jupiter in detriment, in both it's terms and faces? Would that still be counted as weak, or would the minor dignities cancel out the more major one?

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That's one I'm still not too sure about... people seem to add them up cumulatively

-5(det)
+2(terms)
+1(face)
= -2

Which is better than -5 but still not fantastic

Perhaps strong means strongly positive (+5 or more)
Moderate is anything around the 0 mark (maybe... -4 to +4)
Weak is minus figures (-5 or more)

These are just my own ideas.

Both good posts, thanks for the info.

Moog said:

Perhaps strong means strongly positive (+5 or more)
Moderate is anything around the 0 mark (maybe... -4 to +4)
Weak is minus figures (-5 or more)

These are just my own ideas.

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Psssshhh. My Saturn is fall and (presumably) peregrine and receives a cumulative +31.

I think in this instance you would typically only consider the accidental dignities. Typically the "strength" of planets refers to their ability to accomplish what they promise (being cadent vs being angular, being afflicted vs being bonified, etc), whereas "fortification" refurs to their essential dignities. The reason I say this is because (if I recall correctly) there is an instance where Lilly refers to a Fallen Mars as "moderately strong" in one of his test charts. It's one of his war charts about a town being taken, but I can't recall it at the moment.

Psssshhh. My Saturn is fall and (presumably) peregrine and receives a cumulative +31.

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Yes, for many of the non-luminary planets, it's not difficult for them to amass a great amount of accidental dignities.

Actually, it receives a much lower score since I got the sect of my chart wrong and since I found out what the old orb for partility (yes, I invented that) is, but it's still more than twice "fortified" or essentially dignified if a high amount of essential dignity is +5.

This is according to Ptolemy, which Lilly basically copied/"compiled" verbatim for dignities if I understand correctly:

essential (e):
in fall -4
peregrine -5
reception with Sun +7 (Saturn domicile + terms)
reception with Mars +6 (Saturn exaltation + terms)
reception with Jupiter +7 (Saturn domicile + terms)
e debility: -9
e dignity: +20
e dignity + debility: +11

accidental (a):
4th house +4
direct +4
swift +2
not combust +5
in the terms of Jupiter +1
sextile (within 2*) Jupiter +3
occidental: -2
conjunct (within 2*) SN -5
opposite (within 2*) Mars -4
a dignity: +19
a debility: -11
a dignity + debility: +8

a + e dignity + debility: +19

That's more than my domiciled Moon, which receives a mere +11.

e:
domicile +5
e dignity: +5
e debility: -0
e dignity + debility: +5

a:
7th house +4
direct +4 (the Moon is always direct, so I won't count this in the total)
occidental +2
waxing +2? (the Moon is waxing if and only if it is occidental, so I won't count this in the total)
free from combust +5
in terms of Venus +1
slow -2
a dignity: +8
a debility: -2
a dignity + debility: +10

a + e dignity + debility: +15

I don't think you're supposed to be able to cheat on dignity and debility like this.

Saturn:
-4 for Fall
-5 Peregrine
+4 Fourth house
+4 Direct
+2 Swift
+2 Occidental
+5 Free of Combustion
-4 Opp. from Mars
Total: 8

Moon:
+5 Domicile
+5 Seventh house
+2 Swift
+2 Waxing
+5 Free from Combustion
-4 Square Saturn
-4 Square Mars
Total: 11


You overscored on the receptions, but Lilly's words here imply that it must be an equal degree of reception between the significators planets; Domicile/Domicile MR or exaltation/exaltation MR. These scores are probably a bit better, but not exact. I'm somewhat rushed and I probably missed something...

I did not overscore the receptions. There are Saturn terms/bounds (Ptolemaic terms) (+2) for all 3 of them, which means you need to add 6 points to Saturn. I did forget the 7th house for the Moon, but a measly 4 more points doesn't make the Moon the lord of geniture (a + e) or the almuten (e.)

There are Saturn terms/bounds (Ptolemaic terms) (+2) for all 3 of them, which means you need to add 6 points to Saturn.

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Nooooo. Saturn only gets term points if he's within his own term, and I believe the third degree of Aries belongs to Jupiter in terms.

Planets can't receive other planets by term alone.

Oh, also, most modern day traditional astrologers have sort of settled on the usage of the Egyptian terms presented by Ptolmey, Dorotheus, and Valens. There are three different sets of terms that are all attributed to Ptolemy (there were a lot of pretenders), and no one knows which one is the real one, so it's more common to see astrologers utilizing the Egyptian ones that have been consistent across the sources they are presented in.

Rebel Uranian said:

[Saturn]

accidental (a):
in the terms of Jupiter +1

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I'm using this list of terms and other dignities. That's what I'm pretty sure people used in medieval times. There is no reception by term alone going on. They're all mixed. I'm only listing the dignities that are in reception in this case, or other planets with Saturn and Saturn with other planets:

Sun:
Saturn domicile
Saturn term

Mars:
Saturn exaltation
Saturn term

Jupiter:
Saturn domicile
Saturn term

Saturn:
Jupiter triplicity
Mars domicile
Sun exaltation
Jupiter term
Jupiter face

There is no reception by term alone going on. They're all mixed

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Yes, and I mentioned in an earlier post that mixed receptions don't get included, it's only mutual receptions of the same degree of dignity. Lilly's exact words on this matter are "A planet in his own house, or in mutual reception with another planet by house, shall have dignities". He then echoes this again in consideration of dignity by exaltation.

I ran your stuff in Janus and it calculates the dignity points based on Lilly's criteria and it scored your Saturn a 4. Peregrine -5, Fall -4, Fourth house +4, Direct +4, Swift +2, Occidental -2 (I got this mixed up earlier), Free from the beams +5. Janus didn't include the opposition from Mars and I was a bit befuddled by this, but Lilly tells us that the opposition must be platic for Mars to maltreat Saturn and the same goes with any aspect, gotta be platic!

http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/platic.html

Platic
Science / Astrology / Platic
Platic: Term used to describe any aspect that is not exact (within 1° orb) but within allowable orb.

I thought the aspects had to be partile, not platic... but if they are platic, does that mean that my Moon now scores negative?

Why exactly didn't Lilly used mixed receptions, at least to the extent that the dignities have equal value (i.e. domicile and exaltation is +4 for both planets) or triplicity, term, etc. receptions?

I thought the aspects had to be partile, not platic... but if they are platic, does that mean that my Moon now scores negative?

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Yes, I was thinking that too, but it makes sense that it only takes into account partile aspects since those are what counts in maltreatment and bonification considerations. That's essentially what this is, but just called something different.

No, your Moon actually has a very nice score of +14. The only debilitation it has is that it's slow in motion. The only planet that beats the Moon is Venus who has a +16 score.

Why exactly didn't Lilly used mixed receptions, at least to the extent that the dignities have equal value (i.e. domicile and exaltation is +4 for both planets) or triplicity, term, etc. receptions?

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Good question. Typically, it's more favorable for planets to be in equal places since it shows an ability to help each out on equal footing, otherwise one could take advantage of the other. Saturn in Aries is able to help Mars out more than Mars in Libra is since Saturn can get anything that Mars needs from his own house, where as Venus's house of Libra might not have everything that Saturn may need.

It can also work in a bit more of a sinister way. Let's say you and I are in mutual reception by house. I'm in your house while - at the same time - you're in my house. I have full domain of your house and your property, but I'm probably less likely to mess it up or break stuff out of fear that you might retaliate on my property and vice versa. Now let's say I'm in your house (domicile), but you're in one of my good friend's houses (exaltation). Well, now I don't care so much because you can't get to my house, so I'm more likely to take advantage of your property.

Well, Lilly doesn't work then.

It's not just a Lilly thing. I'm pretty sure he was the first one to really come down with a numbers game about it, but the basic ideas of accidental and essential dignity, the interplays of reception, maltreatment and bonification are ideas you find more or less consistent throughout the tradition. Some of these things are lifted right from the pages of Ptolemy and his sources.

I don't mean the general concepts, I just mean the specific methods of Lilly. If I'm correct, the Moon and Venus represent the conservative notion of femininity. (See link.)

I think you're misunderstanding what the Lord of Geniture is supposed to be for and how it works in regards to temperament, lord of manners, etc.

But no, just because the Moon and Venus are strong in your chart doesn't mean you'll display "conservative feminine" archetypes. It's akin to saying that men with strong Moons or Venus's are typically effeminate, which is hardly the case.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

But no, just because the Moon and Venus are strong in your chart doesn't mean you'll display "conservative feminine" archetypes. It's akin to saying that men with strong Moons or Venus's are typically effeminate, which is hardly the case.

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Actually, it was often considered the case for men with strong Moons and Venuses to be effeminate. If I understand correctly, both of these planets are lazy and the former is even flittier than Mercury.

By the way, I'm a melancholic, not a phlegmatic. I say that because I know it's true, not because I want it to be true. I live alone because I want to and the only thing that bothers me about it is the potential instability. Yes, I'm bothered by instability. Now bug off and leave me alone. I mean, please leave me alone. (JK about the last two sentences. That is how I act in real life sometimes, but not here.)

Actually, it was often considered the case for men with strong Moons and Venuses to be effeminate. If I understand correctly, both of these planets are lazy and the former is even flittier than Mercury.

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Not specifically. Typically Venus is loose vs refined and the Moon is laziness vs mutability. People with strong ill dignified Venus in their chart are considered more reckless (gambling, keeping bad company, etc), whereas strong Venus well dignified is more societal, perhaps high class, or refined in the arts. I suppose you could call that effeminate by today's standards, but throughout history the famous patrons or fathers of the arts have been men.

By the way, I'm a melancholic, not a phlegmatic. I say that because I know it's true, not because I want it to be true. I live alone because I want to and the only thing that bothers me about it is the potential instability. Yes, I'm bothered by instability.

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Yes, I have you clocked as predominately melancholic and secondarily choleric. I think that fits pretty nicely. Melancholics want to be left alone to do things at their own pace and cholerics hate people. I'm Choleric/Sanguine, nice to meet you.