Contradictions

Obviously, it's in our human nature to be contradictory (sp?); however, what is frustrating to me in the charts is how there can be two different aspects that almost say the opposite thing. A natal chart I had done haphazardly on a website not to be mentioned said that it means that we vacillate. For example, I have a Mars trine Ascendant, which according to this website is interpreted as someone who shows a lot of effort in the work place but doesn't really pull their weight. Then, I also have a Saturn square Ascendant, which tells me that I am less reserved that I appear to be at first, yet I am a truly diligent and hard worker.

There are many more examples that most of us could give I'm sure, but as an amateur astrologer trying to find a consistency in the practice and the system, I find it troubling. Does anyone have any insight, ideas, or opinions concerning this phenomenen in astrology, especially in regards to our personalities and psyches?

Well I would look at it this way. Charts are a reflection of people. People are contradictory. A person can exhibit great discipline in some areas of their life and not others. People can be really gung ho about work at times and then feel lazy towards their work at other times. Irritating isn't it?

Yes, it is. But if everything is a contradiction, an opposition, and we do indeed carry both traits, what's the point in all this personality/astrology/soul searching stuff? Is there differentiation with all these contradictions? I know this is getting a bit more philosophical and less astrological, but I'd still ilke to keep the astrology lens on the inquiry.

I'm also new at this, and have found the same thing problematic. I think the way we're "meant" to understand it is that different aspects have a certain degree of influence in one's psychological makeup, and the various combinations of all these condradictory influences make people who they are. I guess from a psychological standpoint, it's another way of thinking about internal conflict. I too am skeptical of pseudoscience, but I am beginning to find astrology very interesting.

Astrology is very complex. When you look at one aspect between two planets or between a point and a planet, you need to assess the essential dignities. For instance, you mention you have Mars trine Ascendant but do not say in what sign. Mars in Libra is in its fall and would not give a robust personality or work ethic. Mars would likely be either in the 5th or 9th house giving energy to either philosophy or creativity but is it successful? You look for the aspects to Mars for its ability to carry it off, so to speak. If Mars receives beneficial aspect the impact would be increased, if malefic aspects the result of that energy would be diminished or retarded.
You need to see pairings.
Pairings could bring you to opposites which is the natural worlds' Yin and Yang. You need one to express the other or to know the other. So in astrology you are assessing those pairings in planets and points or houses; who is stronger ; who is more like it's ruler-Mars in Aries is stronger than Venus in Leo. Venus is exalted and dignified in Taurus, Libra and Pisces. So any Venus in a fire sign is not a happy camper and is unable to express the pure essential nature of that planet.
Very complex indeed. I've studied and read for others. But recently I have been enthralled with Morin's basics. There is a book that translates and tries to explain all the nuances of astrology called "Cornerstones of Astrology". Although a mind bender it's well worth your effort because it shows and helps you assess the degree of influence or importance you should place on a given planet, sign or house.

I'll end with a quick story about my two Blue Point Siameses. They are Brother and Sister once removed, currently 9 years old in human terms. They were born one month apart but both have Mars and Venus conjunct. the Male has his conjunction in Sagittarius and She has hers in Capricorn. They both are charismatic but one has an apple shaped face and the other one the Wedge. They love each other to pieces but they love to start fights just as much. But it's never at the same time, because as the transits occur only one is activated in that way and not the other. So one hides and doesn't want to fight and visa versa.

Hope this helps. Cookbook astrology has some merits in that you get an idea what may happen for good or bad but you have to assess each individually to know how they will be expressed in a chart.
Blessings & Love,

Madribub

Im novice too, but my understanding is that the answer lie in the hierarchy of strength in the orbs, type of aspect, in what signs, element and quality and hemisphere to mention a few. This would probably leave us clues as to when one aspect manifest itself as as opposed to another, even if they have a contradictory nature. To quote Astroteacher in the recent thread which you might find interesting - ' The role of the most exact aspect'; "Their manifestion is STRONGER in a tighter orb. Orbs which are 0 degrees within 13 minutes of eachother are extremely powerful, whether it be for good or bad. The further out of orb that the Planets separate, the further their rays need to travel to interact with the other Planet. You can only separate 90 degrees so far until its not a square anymore."
In my own natal chart readings it is often mentioned that I'm outgoing and social then a few lines down the page that I can be reserved and need to be by myself. This had me perplexed in the beginning. I'm both, but at different times. And I try to WORK more on the more positive aspect.
Cheers

it may be useful to think about the difference between a "report" and a "chart interpretation".

a computer generated report is simply a collection of text files that are associated with numerical values.

there are little .txt files for every combination of sign, planet, house, and aspect. the report picks the ones relevant to your chart, then prints them.

a real chart interpretation takes into account whole themes and patterns in the chart.

that's where trained astrologers come in.

astrologers learn to think in terms of the whole person, not just any two or three contradictory traits.

an astrologer also has intuition, and gets an actual feeling or sense about the person whose chart is being read.

so, don't get discouraged by things that seem to not make sense in your report. humans, as has been said, are complex.

really focus on your big three (sun - moon - ascendant). i think they tell us what our souls have come here to do.

then try to think how other things seem to support or challenge your soul's purpose.

Congratulations madribub! You have reached a very important realization which has the ability to turn those interested in Astrology, into full time dedicated students. You will see what I mean below.

Many people start off learning Astrology by searching on the web "Mars trine Jupiter" or "Sun in the seventh House". But unfortunately this only gets us so far. Why? Because Mars Trine Jupiter can mean 12 COMPLETELY different things when each are placed in each of the different Houses. The same principle goes for the Signs as well. And this is just a TIP of the iceburg of alternative meanings. Modern Astrology breaks this apart into compartments, dealing with each part separately, however this is NOT the way Astrology should be read. When you start researching more you will realize before you even CONSIDER interpreting Mars trine Jupiter you need to factor in many other things (those being that I forementioned; Houses, Signs, other Aspects, the weakness or strength of the Planets involved, the placement of them & etc).

So what do you do? Well this is a very important step for you right now. You can accept the fact that there will be variations in your readings and stay with the path you are currently on. Or, you can start and indepth course of self learning (or assisted if you choose) of true Astrology. If you are interested in this path, I will suggest that you get ahold of some classical astrological texts. Why Classical if you want to learn Modern? Everything comes from somewhere, if we learn from the beginning we will adopt a greater understanding of Astrology today. So where to start? I have several beginners books listed on my website.

http://antiquus.50webs.com/Library.html

These books are listed from beginners to advanced and are very complete in their information (some even provide interpretations to aid the student in understanding). I have transcribed these traditional titles and read each one of them over 3 times and have learned a great deal myself from them. The knowledge and understanding they give is incredible. You will see Astrology it a completely different light than you have before. Not only this but you will understand Astrology WITHOUT the need to outside interpretations. My website is also aimed at the student who seeks to learn the basics and further their study.

http://antiquus.50webs.com/

You want to know why there are contradictions within the interpretations? Learn to interpret yourself and they will disapear! As a Traditional Astrologer, I dont see a contradiction between the Aspects you showed me, in fact they mean quite different things. However you will never understand how this applies to you unless you start learning from the beginning. I wish you luck in your studies! I hope my post has aided you in some way.

madribub said:

Obviously, it's in our human nature to be contradictory (sp?); however, what is frustrating to me in the charts is how there can be two different aspects that almost say the opposite thing. A natal chart I had done haphazardly on a website not to be mentioned said that it means that we vacillate. For example, I have a Mars trine Ascendant, which according to this website is interpreted as someone who shows a lot of effort in the work place but doesn't really pull their weight. Then, I also have a Saturn square Ascendant, which tells me that I am less reserved that I appear to be at first, yet I am a truly diligent and hard worker.

There are many more examples that most of us could give I'm sure, but as an amateur astrologer trying to find a consistency in the practice and the system, I find it troubling. Does anyone have any insight, ideas, or opinions concerning this phenomenen in astrology, especially in regards to our personalities and psyches?

Click to expand...

Hi,

In astrological interpretation Mars and Saturn refer for two entirely different aspects of one's nature, their sign how that nature seeks expression, their houses the circumstances requiring that expression. The same can be said for any planet/sign/house. When you learn the meaning of expression behind each individual planet's position you will then be able to separate but also integrate the trees that make up your own particular forest.

Astrology is a language based upon symbolism similar to 1+2+3 =6, or o+r+a+n+g+e = orange. You can only reach an answer once you learn and understand each part of the symbolism and can put it together. Looking up the answers at the back of a book for quickness's sake doesn't really help.

Mars= expression of active energy which is mainly ego orientated; Saturn= expression of diligence and responsibility in order to achieve in the outer world. Mars is 'the engine' and hotly impulsive; Saturn is 'the brake' and slowly reserved. With a trine from Mars to your Ascendant, its energy is part of your natural nature that you express through your personality; a square from Saturn to Ascendant can imply a conflict to be more cautious in the long run.
The two energies can help each other very much. A car needs a brake to slow it down; the brake must be taken off in order for the engine to run.

F.

Thanks everyone for responding. astro.teacher, I will definitely look into it. I am interested in becoming more of an authority on astrology, not just sending my friends to interpretations on the web.

P.S. How do I post my natal chart on the threads? Do I need a program myself?

Try clicking on reply then scroll down past the "Submit Reply" button and under Additional Options : Attach Files click on Manage attachments. I think that should work.

Off Couse people contradict themselves, and i'll thank for that... Who wants to be plain simple?

In your case, Mars trine Rising/ Saturn square rising...

You need to look in this chart which planet is stronger?

Is Mars or Saturn on an angle or ruler of an angle (Asc/ Dc/ Mc/ Ic)?
A lot of planets in Aries (&Scorpio; Mars' Signs) or Capricornus (&Aquarius; Saturn' signs)?
Is Aries or Capricorn intercepted or duplicated?
Which makes the most aspects or is one of the two or both without (tight major) aspects?