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  #1  
Unread 11-21-2005, 06:22 PM
coco coco is offline
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which house system?

I had a general question as to which house system most people use? I usually use either placidus or koch. I have heard that placidus is better for analyzing personality/psychological traits, and koch is better for transit and progressions. Any thoughts?

Coco

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Unread 11-22-2005, 01:15 PM
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Hi Coco,

I have heard the opposite—Placidus is the best for natal and transits/progressions and Koch for psychological.

The best thing to do is work with all the systems and determine which one(s) you feel gives you the best information consistantly. Which system allows your intuition the most room to work and connect with the symbology, your personal unconscious and the collective unconscious in a way that is fully you. You may find one system that does that for you on all accounts or you may find yourself using two systems depending on what you are doing.

My 2¢ worth.
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Unread 01-20-2006, 10:45 PM
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I've started playing around with the Whole House System and have found some very interesting results. Has anyone else worked with this system?
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Unread 01-21-2006, 02:41 AM
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I picked this up from another forum:

Lets talk about Whole Sign houses, their application to modern astrology, their historical basis, and what this means to the astrological community as a whole.

First off, what are Whole Signs Houses? The Whole Sign house system was the original means of dividing up the chart into a separate, twelve fold division in order to determine which area of life a planet had influence over. Modern astrologers are familiar with this concept, and can chose from a wide variety of systems, which divide the four quadrants by various calculations, the most popular today being the Placidus method of house division. Whole Sign Houses are really not a system of houses at all per se, but rather you use the signs as houses, instead of creating a separate 12-fold division of the zodiac. In this system, you find the ascendant, and the sign that the ascendant falls in designates the entire first house, from 0 to 30 degrees of that sign, regardless of where the ascendant falls in that sign. From there you count each sign after that initial sign as one whole house. In this system, the Ascendant and the Midheaven do not act as the cusps of the houses, they both merely act as horoscopic points in the chart, like the part of fortune, or the vertex for example. While the word ‘horoscope’ has come to mean the entire chart itself in modern times, Rob Hand points out in his work on Whole Sign Houses that the Greek word for horoscope was originally more specifically defined as a point in the chart. Thus the ascendant, midheaven, and the Lots (aka Arabic Parts) could all be generally defined under the category of ‘horoscopic points’. One especially crucial aspect of the Whole Sign house system is that the midheaven does not designate the cusp of the 10th house, it just acts as a point of focus, and can land in the 8th 9th 10th 11th or 12th house depending on ones location on the earth. Also, while the ascendant acts as a horoscopic point, which designates the sign in which the first house falls, it does not necessarily designate the ‘cusp’, or starting point of the first house, but merely as a point of focus or heightened activity, because in fact the first house really begins at the beginning of the sign in which the ascendant falls, no matter how late in whatever particular sign it is found. So, in order to find the houses in a chart, every sign counted counterclockwise after the first ‘place’ or sign that contains the ascendant is taken to be the house next in order, because both the signs and the houses coincide with one another, although each retains its own distinct meaning.

This is the oldest form of house division, which was used during the Hellenistic era by our astrological forbearers during the time of horoscopic astrology’s creation. It has only been recently rediscovered over the past decade or so, due to the newly translated works of the Hellenistic astrologers. It has been shown that the house systems that the vast majority of modern astrologers use today, is not what the founders had originally intended, and in fact it all started due a misinterpretation of several fundamental Hellenistic texts during the transmission of western astrology to the Arabs presumably in the 7th and 8th centuries.

The system of house division that is used today by most astrologers was originally devised by the Greeks as a way of measuring planetary 'activity', or perhaps strength. This system of ‘dynamic division’, where you take the Ascendant and Midheaven as starting points, and then divide the quadrants accordingly, which is similar to our modern idea of house division, is clearly explained by several of the Hellenistic astrologers, including Ptolemy who was not a practicing astrologer, but they were careful to explain that this was a ‘dynamical’ division intended to gauge how “busy” a planet is, as opposed to the ‘topical’ division of the chart which designates the actual areas, or ‘houses’ of the chart.


Vettius Valens explains a type of ‘dynamical’ division, which would be the equivalent to Porphyry, where the first third of each quadrant, from each of the four angular points, (i.e. the Asc/Dsc., MC/IC) known in modern house division as the angular ‘houses’ (1st, 4th, 7th, 10th) are the most ‘busy’ or active ’houses’. The following third of the quadrant (i.e. 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th) is only 'moderately active’. And the last third of each quadrant (i.e. 3, 6, 9, 12) is the 'least active' of all the divisions. So. This is called a 'dynamical' division of the chart, because it is a way to gauge planetary activity, or strength, BUT it does not delegate, or signify the areas of life affected by the planetary placements. That’s what the 'topical' division of the chart is for, i.e. Whole Sign houses, because that shows what area of life is effected.

So essentially what happened is that when horoscopic astrology was passed to the Arabs through the Greek writings in the 7th and 8th centuries, the original understanding of how the houses were divided was lost, and through scribal error, and misinterpretations they ended up passing astrology back to the West during the Renaissance with a form of house division that was not intended for what it was being used for. Some of the Arab astrologers such as Masha’allah correctly understood how the Greeks divided the houses, and in his work and several other Arab astrologers works from that period you can see them clearly using Whole Signs, but sadly much of their work was not available by the time astrology made it back to the west, and what little was available, was misunderstood.

Another interesting dimension to this saga is that Vedic astrology, which was heavily influenced by the Hellenistic astrologers, still uses Whole Sign houses to this day because they didn’t have the problems that western astrology had with it being transmitted from culture to culture, and misinterpreted and such. Their astrology is still essentially the same as it was 2,000 years ago, and they employ many of the same techniques as the Hellenistic astrologers did, even the same house system- Whole Sign Houses, but for some reason, we lost connection with our roots.

So my point with all of this is to try and alert you all that there is a change afoot. This simple, yet remarkably important facet of astrology has been rediscovered and could really go a long way in solving some of the simplest problems (i.e. intercepted houses, multiple systems of house division, etc.) that have plagued us for hundreds of years now. Many modern astrologers view Sun-Sign astrology distastefully, almost as a de-evolution of the art, but in this case its funny, because the tables may be turned, because they have been using Whole Signs all along.

At least give it a try and go through a few old charts of people who you know and see if it resonates or elucidates certain areas which had always been a mystery before. Many of the charts may not even change at all, but for the ones that do, be sure to pay attention to planets changing houses, house rulership, and which sign the Midheaven falls in.

Questions? Comments? Death threats?

Chris Brennan
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  #5  
Unread 01-21-2006, 11:01 PM
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"Kite,

:| :? Thanks for this article, it helps, believe it or not. Those freakin' scribal typos will ***** ya up every time! Or maybe they were designed to throw some of the wisdom seekers off track for a few hundred years or more. Wouldn't be the first time.

So.....I'd just use 0 degrees on the rest of the house cusps too because I have 0 Pisces 49' rising? Like I've openly stated before......I do so much better with visuals. So using this Whole House system, I'd have Pisces 0 degrees 00' on the 1st, and my "ASC" would fall those 49' into the 1st? Then the second house would be 0 degrees Aries 00' and so on?

I'm getting all sweaty and confused and no doubt making it all SO much more difficult than it really is. It's just that I think you've discovered something highly important at this moment and in another one of those strange synchronistic ways many of us here at A. W. have, this new information you've 'found' is tying in perfectly with some radicle (to me) new info I've been 'receiving/perceiving' recently! (It's been super strange for me since Nov. 20, 05 when we moved into what's it called? A new Underworld Day or Night in the Mayan Calendar? As soon as I can more clearly discuss this here, I will!)

Any help and suggestions with this Whole Sign houses is much appreciated.
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  #6  
Unread 01-22-2006, 01:12 AM
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You got it right Lapis..O degree for each house then put the Asc and MC in the house as points of emphasis in the chart. I looked at transits to my chart with this new scheme and it was unbelieveably accurate in timing events in my life. I've also looked the progressions and have a couple important ones coming up such as Moon moving from 12 to 1 and MC conjuncting Solar Arc MC in August..so I will continue to pay attention.

We are in the 4th night with the 5th day coming in Novemeber.
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Unread 01-22-2006, 06:03 AM
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About using different house systems

Kite,

Thanks for posting the information on the whole sign house system. As your article points out, it has been used for hundreds of years, was the basis for ancient Greek astrology, and is still used today in Vedic astrology. This is a valid, useful point, however, along with this your article also include with this statement:
Quote:
It has been shown that the house systems that the vast majority of modern astrologers use today [Placidus], is not what the founders had originally intended... what happened is that when horoscopic astrology was passed to the Arabs through the Greek writings in the 7th and 8th centuries, the original understanding of how the houses were divided was lost, and through scribal error, and misinterpretations they ended up passing astrology back to the West during the Renaissance with a form of house division that was not intended for what it was being used for.
The implication seems to be that, since Placidus was created from a a mistake that it can't be very useful. There is a problem with that argument in that many of the most useful discoveries have occurred because of "mistakes." People apply something in a new context for which it was never designed and suddenly discover a use which they had never realized before. This is the process of development and growth and it is what helps ensure that we build and grow our knowledge over the years.

Saying "this is the way the Ancient Greeks did astrology so this is the way we should do astrology," is to imply that the Ancient Greeks somehow "got it right" and everything done since then has been a mistake, based on some ancient errors that never got corrected. However, this denies people intelligence and awareness. If the Placidus "mistake" was NOT a useful method of astrology, then people wouldn't still be using it today to do charts over phones, emails, internet, etc.

This is not to so much to defend Placidus as it is to suggest that there is something to be said for whole sign houses AND Placidus (and Vedic and the other chart styles which have been developed). Insisting that there is some sort of "holy grail" of charting technique is to miss the point of development and advance through trial and experimentation in astrology. So, while Project Hindsight (which has been studying ancient astrology) has been very useful in opening astrology up to ideas long lost in the ages, the implication that they "have it right" and everyone else "has it wrong" only creates divisiveness and territoriality in astrology.

Perhaps the writer of your article did not intend to indicate that Placidus (or any other astrological house system) was somehow "wrong", but there is the danger that those reading this person's explanation will interpret their words that way. This possibility is increased with this section:
Quote:
This simple, yet remarkably important facet of astrology has been rediscovered and could really go a long way in solving some of the simplest problems (i.e. intercepted houses, multiple systems of house division, etc.) that have plagued us for hundreds of years now.
The implication here seems to be that using a multitude of systems is somehow "wrong" and we need to find the one right system which does everything. I suggest that astrology may be more complex than this. Perhaps there is no "one right system" and that EACH system has a little to add to our astrological knowledge. While we can never know them all equally, understanding a little bit about each system and acknowledging its worth, seems to me more helpful than trying to find the one "do it all" house system at the expense of all the other systems.

In favor of multiple house systems,

Tim
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  #8  
Unread 01-22-2006, 03:30 PM
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Tim, your points are well taken. I'm sure in my exuberance of seeing beyond the two most used systems and discovering this Whole House method, I've implied perhaps maybe we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. No way - whatever works should continue to be used..for right now, I feel like I've dialed into new relevant information for me that was missing previously.

With that said, I'm hoping others will experiment with this method and share the results with this community so we can all learn.
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Unread 01-22-2006, 08:08 PM
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Just a quick, somewhat unrelated yet interesting observation...

I am still chuckling to myself about the phrase Kite used--throw the baby out with the bathwater. It seems to be the perfect description of the Aquarius Rising way of doing things..."Get on with the revolution!"

And leave it to another Aquarius Rising native to interject such intense discussion with a random inane comment such as this... :roll:

On a serious note, I am thankful to have stumbled upon this thread as it has allowed me to begin a whole different journey of discovery...and I too believe that many house systems can provide valuable insight. Thank you all for sharing your knowlege and helping others to learn the art and science that is astrology!

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Unread 01-23-2006, 07:18 PM
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Just a quick clarifiation to distinguish the Whole House system from the Equal House System.

In my case I have my ascendant in Aquarius at 14 degrees. In the Whole House System my first house cusp would begin at 0 degrees Aquarius and all the following houses with follow at 0 degrees as well. 2nd house would be 0 Pisces, 3rd would be 0 Aries and so on.

In the Equal House system the cusp of the first house would be 14 degrees Aquarius and all the following houses would follow with the same cusp degree of 14...14 degrees Pisces on 2nd, 14 Aries on 3rd, etc.

In both house systems there would be no interceptions.
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Unread 01-23-2006, 11:16 PM
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How can you find the Equal House System on Astrodienst? I know there's an option of chart style that says Equal, put when I viewed my own chart with this it did not seem to compare correctly with the information you gave me...

However, I tried the Vedic system and this seemed to match more closely. Are Equal House System and the Vedic System the same thing?

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Unread 01-23-2006, 11:24 PM
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Astrodentist doesn't have equal house. You can download astrolog software for free and they have it. Not sure if it's the same as Vedic.
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Unread 01-23-2006, 11:37 PM
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Kite, do you know where I may find a program like this to download? I've actually been looking for an alternative to Astrodienst for a while and would greatly appreciate any suggestions...

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Unread 01-23-2006, 11:47 PM
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http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm
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Unread 01-24-2006, 12:04 AM
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Thank you...now I just have to figure out how to use it
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Unread 01-24-2006, 01:12 AM
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astrolog_List/

Newsgroup on the program.
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Unread 02-08-2006, 12:21 PM
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I'm in the early stages of sorting out the house systems, for myself anyway. I'm beginning to see that the Whole House system represents the fully functional integration of the polarities indicated by the other house systems. For instance, If I look at Placidus, I have Aries intercepted in the 2nd house and Libra intercepted in the 8th. By working through these polarities in the context of my Mars/Moon conjunction in 2 (proving my worth), those planets would move into my thrid house in the Whole House system (Expressing the talents/skills I inherited from 2's discovery process).

In the Koch system I have Taurus and Scoprio intercepted. I believe that the transits and progressions will offer up specific opportunites to address the polarities indicated by the house systems involved. I also theorize that Progressions are dealing with dual issues. I want to say that Secondary Progressions are dealing with the Lunar aspects of integrating Shadow and the Solar Arc is dealing with manifestation.

I am seeing that Saturn - the ruler of time, has given us these snapshots vis a vis the different house systems as a roadmap towards full integration. Barbara Hand Clow would argue that the twelve houses represent the 12 strands of DNA that we are evolving into in this shift of consciousness we are currently experiencing. I sense the house systems with time and latitude divisions point out the polarity blueprint for each individual as indication of the "Personal Fall" from connection to source, Garden or whatever metaphor you want to use and the Whole House system restores the original Hologram - fully functioning fractal fo the Tree of Life.

I want to develop this thesis and would welcome input/collaboration, etc.
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Unread 03-08-2007, 07:59 PM
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Re: which house system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kite
I've started playing around with the Whole House System and have found some very interesting results. Has anyone else worked with this system?
I used Placidus for many years and then had a consultation from an astrologer who uses whole sign houses and since I have a late degree rising along with interceptions using Placidus, my chart changes very much using whole sign houses and I have found it very interesting to watch transits when the slower moving planets make ingresses (and regresses, as with the current Merc rx period). It made sense of things that for years left me perplexed.

But -- I also notice transits very strongly to the Porphyry house cusps.
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Unread 03-09-2007, 11:31 PM
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Re: which house system?

Kite,

As I read your main post I thought "I have not heard Hellenistic astrology being suggested on the boards in an educated fashion before by anyone other than me." At the foot of your post I came to your name and realised AyA. You do not know me but I have often enjoyed reading your internet postings. Nicely laid out so others can understand, good on ya.

Tim,

Quote:
As your article points out, it has been used for hundreds of years, was the basis for ancient Greek astrology, and is still used today in Vedic astrology.
There are some similarities between Vedic and Hellenistic astrology but they do not share the same logic. Decanates for instance are markedly different to the Vedic Decans/Nakshatras, they even employ a different rulership scheme.

Quote:
The implication seems to be that, since Placidus was created from a a mistake that it can't be very useful.
This is often a modern understanding. You are quite correct about the Placidus house system being born of a mistake. In life many philosophys and material objects have been discovered through a mistake. However, no-one has suggested that the Placidus house system should be consigned to the bin. What has been suggested is that it 'may' be faulty and needs thoroughly investigating in the light of modern discoveries about it's origins.

Quote:
Saying "this is the way the Ancient Greeks did astrology so this is the way we should do astrology,"
Again, no-one has ever suggested that. However, it would be just as bigger mistake to write off Greek astrology too. All astrology somehow became a logical system to the Greeks, and their systems are largely what gives us the astrology we have today. If someone had brought you up telling you Alice (in wonderland) was a boy, would you not like to learn that she was not? The translation errors handed down over the years have these kinds of 'errors' which are not 'common misspellings' but whopping great blunders.

Quote:
The implication here seems to be that using a multitude of systems is somehow "wrong" and we need to find the one right system which does everything. I suggest that astrology may be more complex than this. Perhaps there is no "one right system" and that EACH system has a little to add to our astrological knowledge. While we can never know them all equally, understanding a little bit about each system and acknowledging its worth, seems to me more helpful than trying to find the one "do it all" house system at the expense of all the other systems.
Tim,

You seem to have a paranoia or phobia towards ancient astrology. It does not say anything is wrong, it merely states that some of the things used in modern astrology have dubious origins. Because of this, they should be carefully checked rather than blindly accepted. I see no problem between modern or ancient astrology but, I would not use any system 'I' have not confirmed for myself, rather than just by it being read in a book somewhere.

There is no one 'do-it-all' system but trying to take a cylinder head off a car using a rubber spanner and you will be doing something akin to a lot of what modern astrologers do today.


Good wishes


Bob
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Unread 08-15-2007, 09:49 PM
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Re: which house system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coco
I had a general question as to which house system most people use? I usually use either placidus or koch. I have heard that placidus is better for analyzing personality/psychological traits, and koch is better for transit and progressions. Any thoughts?

Coco
Hi Coco!
You are completly right about what you are thinking.
Tom
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  #21  
Unread 12-28-2007, 09:04 PM
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Re: which house system?

Which House system ?
The answer is, depends on the 'intent' of the question, what are you trying to achieve? or what is your purpose of looking into various houses-systems?
Remember, research done in the past, on applications of various houses systems produced NO-RESULTS, that can be justified as a field of energies, or magnetic fields that can and will influence astrological factors.

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  #22  
Unread 12-28-2007, 11:24 PM
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Re: which house system?

EQUAL all the way.

I put this question on Linda Goodman's forum recently and everyone pretty much agreed with me.

It seems to be the most accurate !
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Unread 12-28-2007, 11:26 PM
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Re: which house system?

ps.

Astro.com DOES have equal house. I use it all the time!
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Unread 12-29-2007, 03:12 AM
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Re: which house system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin
EQUAL all the way.

I put this question on Linda Goodman's forum recently and everyone pretty much agreed with me.

It seems to be the most accurate !
On what charts moulin....natal?

Equal doesn t work for me......I have duplicated houses and interceptions....
I use placidus, dont know enough about the other systems to use them.....
I feel equal houses can be a bit like cheating with the dulpicate/intercepted houses!

Can someone explain why regiomontanus is better for Horaries.....i am sure i read that somewhere on this forum?

thanks
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Unread 12-29-2007, 03:14 AM
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Re: which house system?

By the way, what house system do people use, in general, for eastern australia....

Doesnt the geography make a difference?
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