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  #1  
Unread 03-07-2006, 06:33 AM
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Radu Radu is offline
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Sun Sign Astrology

Hi all

I'm looking forward to your comments on Sun Sign Astrology - do you think that there's something into it for you even now, when you are into REAL astrology ?!

I just read a message on 'young astrologers mailing list' on this. The message was written by Moses Siregar III, a well known...

I don't think he would mind me pasting it here. I don't have time to write my own now, but I stick to what he said:

=============================================


----- Original Message -----
From: "Moses Siregar III" <M.....@hotmail.com>
To: <youngastro@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:24 AM
Subject: [youngastro] Re: Sun Signs


Ah, a rather passionate issue, ye olde sun sign columns.

What I've seen is that most serious people in astrology start off
hating Sun Sign astrology. I think that's because in the beginning
you're trying to do something new and unconventional be accepted for
it, and Sun Sign columns usually make astrology look pretty silly. So
a lot of people want to distance themselves from that.

Maybe down the road, you start to understand the principles of Sun
Sign columns and why they basically work. You start to understand
solar charts and whole sign houses charts, and you go, "Wow, this
really does make at least some sense." Any time there is a planetary
ingress (especially with slower planets), it really is true that
everyone of a given sun, moon, or rising sign will experience a
certain kind of shift. Individual charts let you work out more
individual details, but if Jupiter is transiting into your solar 7th
house, then you are going to feel something fairly significant with
that IMO. I think that any competent astrologer should be able to
write a sun (, moon, or rising) sign column that has a high enough
level of truth to it.

Further down the road, when you're a dirty capitalist, you realize
that not only do sun sign columns have at least some legitimate
theoretical basis, but the general public also really likes them. If
you do Vedic, you could do really well with a sidereal Moon sign
column, since transits can be reckoned very well from the Moon
Lagna(ASC). Or you can do a rising sign column, which is pretty much
the same gig.

But generally it seems like the longer you've been doing astrology,
the more accepting you become of sun sign columns, but that's
obviously a generalization and it certainly doesn't apply to all.

I basically agree what you were saying here, Samuel. And I think that
if you are doing good astrology and telling people that sun (or moon
or rising) sign columns are just a fun little tip of the iceberg, then
it's a perfectly great way to reach out to people and promote your
business.

I wrote a Sun Sign column once, and I felt pretty good at it, but I
still couldn't shake that "dirty" feeling LOL, even though I was more
careful than anyone else I've ever seen to explain that this is not
anywhere near as good as actually reading your own individual natal
chart, etc. But I saw really quickly how people respond well to them.
One guy liked my column so much that he flew across the country to
come to my house and have a
session, and he was this really cool rock-n-roll guy that I've enjoyed
keeping in touch with. I enjoyed connecting with more people through
that column, but I just chose not to stick with it, even though it was
kind of fun to reach a more beginning audience. It did help get me
some business, and a lot of people told me they enjoyed it and were
looking forward to more, but it just wasn't the direction I wanted to
go in. But someone like Susan Miller has helped a lot of people that
the rest of us probably could never reach, and turned them onto
astrology in some way. I think the glass is half-full here.

On the 15 degree Sun thing, I see it a bit differently. To me, the
people who will respond most to these columns (after those with, say,
rising and/or moon in the same sign) are those with their Suns closest
to 0 degrees. That's because whether you use a whole sign chart or an
Equal House type of chart (both of which work very well IME), it's
going to be the same basic chart for a 0 degree Sun.

For ex, if someone has a 1 degree Aries Sun, then their whole sign
solar chart of course essentially has 0 degrees on each cusp, while
their equal house solar chart will have 1 degree on each cusp. These
two charts are going to be very close to each other, and thus the
predicted events and ingresses should get this person more powerfully.

The least accurate sun sign columns should be those with Suns closer
to 29 degrees IMO. That's because their equal house solar chart will
be almost the same as the *following* sign's whole sign chart. So
those people could actually read the sun sign column for the following
sign, and it should work pretty well in terms of events (though not
the psychology of the sign itself). The problem for these folks is
that there's a world of difference between a transit going into your
8th vs. your 9th, or your 5th vs. your 6th, and that 29 degree ASC
presents a funny problem because of the whole vs. equal chart
difference. So I think columns for those people are going to be more
muddled in accuracy.

The same could be said about ASC's closer to 0 degrees (low degrees).
Those folks are going to going to feel ingresses a lot more powerfully
and clearly in one single direction (i.e. house) bc of the similarity
in their whole sign and equal house charts.

Alohas,
Moses

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  #2  
Unread 03-07-2006, 02:57 PM
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wilsontc wilsontc is offline
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Uselessness of Sun-sign horoscope columns

Radu,

Your quote read:
Quote:
...most serious people in astrology start off hating Sun Sign astrology. I think that's because in the beginning you're trying to do something new and unconventional be accepted for it, and Sun Sign columns usually make astrology look pretty silly.
For me it isn't the need to be "new and unconventional", but instead the lack of usefulness and ability to test them that makes me dislike Sun-sign astrology. Here is a typical example from a horoscope list:
Quote:
A nice, mid week opportunity should come to you so keep alert and listen carefully. It could come from your mate or best friend. Going over past history may give you new insights and perspectives but is this always good? It can be hurtful all over again so be sure you want to travel that path. Your mate may have something to say about that.
http://www.rrtearoom.com/horoscope/Virgo.htm
What can I do with this information? It tells me to "keep alert and listen carefully." To me, this is something I should ALWAYS be doing. It talks about an "opportunity" coming to me...but when, how, what kind of "opportunity", is it an opportunity I care about? It comes from my "mate or best friend"...or near acquaintance, or stranger I meet and get along with, or...? To me, this is useless information.

The next question...how can I test whether or not it is something unique to this week or could apply to any week? I can think of situations last week which might indicate an "opportunity" of some kind, and a few weeks before that, and a few weeks before that! Life is FILLED with "opportunities"...many of which I am not interested in. As to the warning about concentrating too much on the past...I used to review the past a lot, but I don't as much any more: live for the present is my motto these days. So this suggestion would be more appropriate for me for many years ago.

What do I end up with? A bunch of useless information and vague, untestable suggestions. What upsets me is that other people (same as I used to ) think of this as "real" astrology: a collection of useless trivia that could apply to anyone anywhere. Having studied astrology for awhile now, I know astrology is nothing like that. However, I also accept supply and demand. People will supply sun-sign horoscopes as long as people demand it...and since sun-sign horoscopes give life to the lie that life is "easy" and all everyone needs is a guide to tell them what to do and where to go...the demand is pretty much guaranteed.

After all, as PT Barnum once said...one is born every minute!

Non-sun-sign horoscopically,

Tim
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http://learnaboutyourastrochart.jimdo.com/
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  #3  
Unread 03-07-2006, 06:23 PM
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Radu Radu is offline
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Thanks Tim. I agree with you.

How about "solar houses"? Much of the astrological basis for sun sign columns is represented by planets' transit through those. Such as: I'm a Virgo, Jupiter is in Scorpio now, so during this year, there's a Jupiter in the 3rd solar house influence...

Some experienced natal astrologers I met told me they consider solar houses work as well. What do you think?
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  #4  
Unread 03-08-2006, 05:03 AM
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wilsontc wilsontc is offline
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Why not use real astrology instead of Sun-sign astrology?

Radu,

I am not familiar with "Solar houses", so I looked it up here:
http://www.astrologyzine.com/teach-a4.shtml

The way it seems to work is the astrologer creates a fake chart for the day and interprets from that. Since aspects will be the same throughout the day (except for the Moon, since it moves very quickly during the day), the astrologer can create an OK chart which might mean something to somebody who happens to be born around the time the chart was created and who happens to be thinking like the astrologer is writing.

To me this is a waste of the helpfulness of astrology. Astrology works best when we have definite birth information and, since we can find this information fairly easily, why not concentrate on making good charts which can have deep meaning to people, instead of fake charts that may mean something to a few people, but (if they are honest with themselves) mean very little to the majority?

My astrological moments of understanding occurred, not when I glanced at some Sun-sign column, but when I experienced outer planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto) conjuncting Ascendant, Descendant, Nadir, and Midheaven...and confirmed these energy interactions through astrology. In EVERY case they were profound experiences which astrology helped me to deepen my understanding. A Sun sign column couldn't have given me this insight into myself that my actual chart did.

While some people may like Sun-sign charts, it seems to me that they mislead and misrepresent themselves. The Virgo Sun-sign charts are NOT the charts of "Virgo" people, they are a made up chart which may mean something to some Sun-sign Virgo people somewhere, but for the most may turn off Sun-sign Virgos (particularly the analytical Sun-sign Virgo people! ) to astrology entirely. And this, it seems to me, does a DIS-service to astrology and only helps to promote the idea that astrology is useless entertainment.

Since the basics of astrology are easily learned (such as here:
http://www.geocities.com/wilsontctc )

and since http://www.astro.com offers free charts to all who want them, why even have Sun-sign astrology any more? Waken people up to real astrology...those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. To the rest of the people who are blind and deaf to astrology, creating Sun-sign charts wastes both our time as astrologers and their time.

Non-solar charting,

Tim
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  #5  
Unread 03-08-2006, 01:13 PM
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Elianah Elianah is offline
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Hi Radu and Tim,

Although I do believe that Sun Sign Astrology has limited applications, I do believe that it is useful in introducing people to astrology. I think the problem for me lies in when a people use it as an be-all-end-all for astrological thinking—most daily/weekly/monthly Sun Sign oriented horoscope columns are so generalized that they feel like they are being pulled from formulaic thinking based on the lowest common denominator application.

Besides the point of introducing people to astrology, I also believe that good astrologers can learn how to deeply read and intuit what a particular planet saying to one, in this case the Sun, then it gives that astrologer experience to pull from when learning to deeply read and intuit other planets, the angles, the aspects, etc.

There is only one astrology Sun Sign horoscope column that I read on a regular basis: Free Will Astrology. There are times that Rob hits it right on the nose. There are times I sit there scratching my head wondering what weed he might have been smoking during writing. What I like about FWA is that it always gives me something to ponder on and see if it has any resonance for me. It is more metaphysically/spiritually/philosophically based than the daily horoscopes in the paper. It stirs my intellect as well as my spiritual sides, and I do find its approach useful for me.

I think there are two dangers in Sun Sign Astrology: 1) when it is used as the only astrological context for understanding someone and 2) when people use it to dictate what will happen in their lives. Sun Sign Astrology gives a window into the person, true, but it is the interplay and integration of the whole chart, including its transits and progressions, that may fully reveal astrologically who the client is at this moment. Sun Sign Astrology is a snapshot of a person when that person was born. Does anyone still resemble the photo of themselves at the time of birth? Not very likely.

The other point refers back to the free will/destiny question. I think there are people who relegate their free will to astrological dictates so they do not have to be responsible for their choices and actions. They use their daily Sun Sign horoscope to explain why things turned out the way they did without taking any responsibility or holding themselves accountable. For myself, I do not believe this is a healthy way to use astrology. I do believe that astrology can teach people (if they choose) to live more responsibly and accountably by understanding and integrating all factors of a chart. Focusing on one planet alone does not do that.

My opinion only.

Elianah
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  #6  
Unread 03-08-2006, 02:24 PM
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Radu Radu is offline
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Thanks Elianah for the suggestion. I didn't bother so far to read Rob Brezsny's horoscope, but I did today and must tell you they are interesting, not from an astrological point of view but as short essays. They don't predict only offer an insight. Reading it was like picking Rob's brain.
I particulary like the story "How I Got Started in the Horoscope Business" located here: http://www.freewillastrology.com/writings/started.html
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