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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 10-17-2018, 12:44 AM
GrignardReagent GrignardReagent is offline
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Planetary Strength

Hello, everyone!

Iíve been studying Traditinal Astrology as a hobby for a little bit now, but I suppose I wanted to venture out, and see whether anyone can help me understand the subject better.

Iíve tried using my own Natal chart to understand planetary strength much better, but am stumped. I donít necessarily agree with the strength Iíve managed to delineate, but I wonder if itís my interpretation that is off. In any case, I was hoping if anyone could shine light on what the strength of my planets are, based on traditional astrology.

Here is my chart, linked:

https://imgur.com/PZGevMz


Last edited by GrignardReagent; 10-17-2018 at 12:49 AM.
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Unread 10-17-2018, 06:03 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

You might start with the essential dignities:

Venus domiciled in Libra, Mars domiciled in Scorpio, Saturn domiciled in Aquarius.

Then think about accidental dignities: planets in angular houses, esp. the first.

Planets in other favourable houses, like the 5th (traditional house of good fortune,) Mercury joys in the first house

Aspects: trines, sextiles.

Mars looks extra-strong: domiciled, in the first house, and in a partile trine with the moon.

There's more to get to, but do you feel you've mastered this much, already?
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  #3  
Unread 10-17-2018, 12:04 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post
Hello, everyone!
I’ve been studying Traditinal Astrology as a hobby for a little bit now, but
I suppose I wanted to venture out, and see whether anyone can help me
understand the subject better.
I’ve tried using my own Natal chart
to understand planetary strength much better, but am stumped.
I don’t necessarily agree with the strength I’ve managed to delineate, but
I wonder if it’s my interpretation that is off.
In any case, I was hoping if anyone could shine light
on what the strength of my planets are, based on traditional astrology.

Here is my chart, linked:

https://imgur.com/PZGevMz
'.....The art of synthesizing chart factors in the process of analysis
calls us to consider many factors. One of the most important is
to consider the strength and dignity of the planets.
The 'benefics' are not constant sources of good fortune,
the 'malefics' are not always damaging
nor is it fair to assume that all planets express an equal importance
at all times...'
COMPLETE FREE GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING PLANETARY STRENGTH
at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 10-22-2018, 01:49 AM
GrignardReagent GrignardReagent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You might start with the essential dignities:

Venus domiciled in Libra, Mars domiciled in Scorpio, Saturn domiciled in Aquarius.

Then think about accidental dignities: planets in angular houses, esp. the first.

Planets in other favourable houses, like the 5th (traditional house of good fortune,) Mercury joys in the first house

Aspects: trines, sextiles.

Mars looks extra-strong: domiciled, in the first house, and in a partile trine with the moon.

There's more to get to, but do you feel you've mastered this much, already?
Yeah, Iíve gotten the gist of which planets are strong, and which are not based on their relative positions in my chart. I struggle with drawing inferences from these positions, though. Like, being able to interpret the data that I see.

For example, I know Mars is domicile in Scorpio, in the 1st house, and deposits my ASC, Sun and Mercury, but I donít know how to interpret that data correctly.
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Unread 10-22-2018, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
'.....The art of synthesizing chart factors in the process of analysis
calls us to consider many factors. One of the most important is
to consider the strength and dignity of the planets.
The 'benefics' are not constant sources of good fortune,
the 'malefics' are not always damaging
nor is it fair to assume that all planets express an equal importance
at all times...'
COMPLETE FREE GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING PLANETARY STRENGTH
at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html
I apologize for double-posting, on my phone, haha. In any case, Iíve read over articles from Skyscript before. ItĒs helped me understand some factors, but others elude me, especially drawing interpretations after determining planetary strength.

For example, Venus is domicile in Libra, but in the 12th House, unaspected, so does Venus draw power from herself, or? Stuff like that, since the only connection she has to other planets is as a depositor.
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Unread 10-22-2018, 03:02 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post
Yeah, I’ve gotten the gist of which planets are strong, and which are not based on their relative positions in my chart. I struggle with drawing inferences from these positions, though. Like, being able to interpret the data that I see.

For example, I know Mars is domicile in Scorpio, in the 1st house, and deposits my ASC, Sun and Mercury, but I don’t know how to interpret that data correctly.
So Mars sounds like a real powerhouse in your chart. Are you "martial" in some way: athletic, aggressive, or a take-charge kind of person?

Do you want to post your chart? It's hard to say a lot without seeing it.
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Unread 10-22-2018, 01:39 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
So Mars sounds like a real powerhouse in your chart. Are you "martial" in some way: athletic, aggressive, or a take-charge kind of person?

Do you want to post your chart? It's hard to say a lot without seeing it.
Here is a link to his chart, Waybread: https://imgur.com/PZGevMz

I'll wait to hear GrignardReagent's response to your question about H1 Mars before saying anything of substance, but one general thing that comes to mind is this: when I first came to traditional astrology as a modern astrologer, I found it very difficult to break the habit of interpreting the entire chart psychologically. And to be honest, I still find myself falling into this bad habit.

I find that it is helpful to remember that in traditional and Hellenistic astrology, we are making use of a topical approach. And that the only house we use to describe a person's psychology would be the first house. All the rest have to do with the topics they concern.

I'm looking forward to hearing the response to your Mars question.

Last edited by Rhys; 10-22-2018 at 01:49 PM.
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Unread 10-22-2018, 03:59 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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I find that it is helpful to remember that in traditional and Hellenistic astrology, we are making use of a topical approach. And that the only house we use to describe a person's psychology would be the first house. All the rest have to do with the topics they concern.
That is not Hellenistic at all. Almost all authors seem consider the Moon to have some effect on character (perhaps equal since it is the rising sign of conception). Ptolemy does not focus on the rising sign except to some degree for temperament, instead he primarily uses predominating planets over Mercury and Moon - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/3D*.html#13

Valens, Firmicus and Rhetorius mention the Master of the Nativity influencing character. This seems to go back to Petosiris, here is how Riley translates it ''Petosiris seems to have defined the place perfectly, even though he spoke in mystic riddles: “The beginning, the end, the controller, and the measurement standard of the whole is the houseruling star of each nativity: it makes clear what kind of person the native will be, what kind of basis his livelihood will have, what his character* will be, what sort of body <=health and appearance> he will have, and all the things that will accompany him in life. Without this star nothing, neither occupation nor rank, will come to anyone.”'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

* - τρόποις - way, character

Last edited by petosiris; 10-22-2018 at 04:21 PM.
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Unread 10-23-2018, 03:31 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

Thanks, Rhys.

GR, you actually have what I would consider to be a strong chart. 3 domiciled planets (Venus, Mars, Saturn.) I would think of your sun as in the 12th house, though one traditional astrologer told me that he uses a 5-degree rule, where the influence of a cuspy-planet is primarily felt in the next house. Even without the sun, you have 3 angular planets, and the 5th is the traditional house of good fortune.

I see you as assertive, and probably a devastating critic.

Mars-Saturn is one of the troubling aspects, but there are very few "vanilla" charts out there. I don't think you'd actually want your life to be all nicey-nice, anyway.

Jupiter in the 12th trine Saturn can mean that you actually enjoy working behind the scenes.

Please let me know if you disagree. That way I learn more astrology.
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  #10  
Unread 10-23-2018, 04:27 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

Thank you everyone for your responses. Also, I want to preface by apologizing by responding to everyone in such a general manner. Quoting by phone is proving to be a challenge.

In any case, to answer the first question, Iím not really athletic or aggressive in my mannerisms. Truth be told, Iím more emotional, or sad by nature, but not always. I usually go with what my emotions feel like. For example, if I donít feel particular in taking an exam, Iíll skip it, even if I know itíll effect me adversely later down the line.

Nonetheless, I actually corrected my chart ever so slightly to 7:21, because my birth time was at 7:15, but this places my Sun on the ASC making it difficult to ascertain whether itís above or below the horizon. I picked 21, cause itís my favorite number.

I feel more like I chase after the idea of love, and romanticize the notion of meeting someone special, but when I do, I get bored and move on. Itís hard to describe, to be honest.

Nonetheless, what can be said about an unaspected planet in traditional terms? Some articles state that the planet internalizes this energy, and being in the 12th house, I feel like Venus should be really weak, yet I feel her presence is strong.

Last edited by GrignardReagent; 10-23-2018 at 04:30 AM.
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Unread 10-23-2018, 05:57 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

I also check Dignities of Planets in other Varga Charts to get final conclusion.
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Unread 10-23-2018, 12:24 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by Somna7H View Post


I also check Dignities of Planets in other Varga Charts to get final conclusion.
VARGA CHARTS are VEDIC astrology, not traditional Western
so not applicable method for this board
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Unread 10-23-2018, 02:49 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post
I feel more like I chase after the idea of love, and romanticize the notion of meeting someone special, but when I do, I get bored and move on. It’s hard to describe, to be honest.

Nonetheless, what can be said about an unaspected planet in traditional terms? Some articles state that the planet internalizes this energy, and being in the 12th house, I feel like Venus should be really weak, yet I feel her presence is strong.
Thanks for your response, Grignard Reagent!

Venus is definitely strong in terms of her being in domicile.
However, what do we think about, Venus, the ruler of the twelfth place, being in the twelfth place, traditionally speaking? Also bearing in mind that Venus is also the ruler of the seventh place in GR's chart?

Last edited by Rhys; 10-23-2018 at 03:20 PM.
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Unread 10-23-2018, 02:53 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
That is not Hellenistic at all. Almost all authors seem consider the Moon to have some effect on character (perhaps equal since it is the rising sign of conception). Ptolemy does not focus on the rising sign except to some degree for temperament, instead he primarily uses predominating planets over Mercury and Moon - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/3D*.html#13

Valens, Firmicus and Rhetorius mention the Master of the Nativity influencing character. This seems to go back to Petosiris, here is how Riley translates it ''Petosiris seems to have defined the place perfectly, even though he spoke in mystic riddles: ďThe beginning, the end, the controller, and the measurement standard of the whole is the houseruling star of each nativity: it makes clear what kind of person the native will be, what kind of basis his livelihood will have, what his character* will be, what sort of body <=health and appearance> he will have, and all the things that will accompany him in life. Without this star nothing, neither occupation nor rank, will come to anyone.Ē'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

* - τρόποις - way, character
Hi Mr P ! Interesting points, thanks!

And just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, your position is that Hellenistic astrology is primarily psychological, and not topical, correct?
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Unread 10-23-2018, 03:36 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Hi Mr P ! Interesting points, thanks!

And just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, your position is that Hellenistic astrology is primarily psychological, and not topical, correct?
No, not all. I get what you are saying, modern astrology does not try to predict events (if that is what you mean by ''topics'') as much as it does states of experience.

However, it is very shortsighted to say that psychology is missing from traditional astrology, or that it is limited to analysis of the rising place. In fact, descriptions of character in astrological textbooks can be compared to modern methods of personality assessment in psychology. Ptolemy discusses the quality of the soul extensively in 3.13 - 14.

Traditional astrology is just more serious about it in its treatment, compared to the pop psychology variant that is usually found in modern astrology.

And in psychology, many people have been critical even on serious personality tests such as MBTI, Big Five, 16PF, projective tests such as Rorschach, with some calling them ''junk science'' because of the flaws each one of those tests possesses. Some have questioned the objectivity and validity of some of those tests with the Forer effect, a criticism that is frequently thrown at astrology as well.

What is striking for me personally, is the length and the detail that Ptolemy, Pythagoras and other astrologers go about predicting psychology. They also tried to combine that with other sciences at the time, such as physiognomy. They mostly focus on particular details that most people would find agreement on (full objectivity might be impossible in relation to intelligence and personality) such as consistency, happiness, intelligence, agreeableness, religion etc. What I am saying is that if I wanted to study psychology, I would no go to a modern psychological book, but that is my opinion. One of the most appealing factors of Hellenistic astrology for me is that the aim is an astrology ''not with a multitude of words, but with brevity leading to the truth'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

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Unread 10-23-2018, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks for your response, Grignard Reagent!

Venus is definitely strong in terms of her being in domicile.
However, what do we think about, Venus, the ruler of the twelfth place, being in the twelfth place, traditionally speaking? Also bearing in mind that Venus is also the ruler of the seventh place in GR's chart?
Yeah, Venus deposits herself in the 12th house, a Cadent house that does not see the 1st house. Therefore, her power is limited, confined, including 7th house matters.

She is direct, free of combustion, and in her house, but I donít know if that means anything. Unaspected, so sheís restricted to her own house, unless you count depositorship as a means of connection with other planets.

She deposits Jupiter and my Moon, so maybe affects the houses ruled by those planets. I wish Venus aspected any planet so I can better interpret this data.

Itís funny, because, Mars and Saturn are so much stronger, yet I feel my personality resonates with Venus so much more, with love being my self-undoing more than anything else.

Traditional Astrology is difficult, because thereís so many small rules that come into play, such as degrees, triplicities, almutens, etc.

Edit: I read that the Chaldeans regarded Venus as joyful in the 12th house, or something like that. This confuses me more, and makes me wish that older astrologers could agree on most matters.

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Unread 10-23-2018, 11:25 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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I read that the Chaldeans regarded Venus as joyful in the 12th house, or something like that.
Where did you read that? According to tradition, Saturn has its joy in the 12th house.
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Unread 10-23-2018, 11:40 PM
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Where did you read that? According to tradition, Saturn has its joy in the 12th house.
I believe itís the Chaldean Order of the planets, with Saturn in the 1st, Jupiter in the second, and so forth based on their speed relative to the Sun.

According to Skyscript, Lilly also said this about Saturn in the first:

ĎAssociated Planets:
Mercury has its joy in the 1st; Lilly notes: "because it represents the head, and he the tongue, fancy and memory: when he is well dignified and posited in this house, he produces good orators".
Aries and Saturn are cosignificators: "for as this house is the first house, so is Aries the first sign, and Saturn the first of the planets; and therefore when Saturn is but moderately well fortified in this house, and in any benevolent aspect of Jupiter, Venus, Sun or Moon, it promises a good sober constitution of body, and usually long life"í

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Unread 10-23-2018, 11:50 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post
I believe it’s the Chaldean Order of the planets, with Saturn in the 1st, Jupiter in the second, and so forth based on their speed relative to the Sun.

According to Skyscript, Lilly also said this about Saturn in the first:

‘Associated Planets:
Mercury has its joy in the 1st; Lilly notes: "because it represents the head, and he the tongue, fancy and memory: when he is well dignified and posited in this house, he produces good orators".
Aries and Saturn are cosignificators: "for as this house is the first house, so is Aries the first sign, and Saturn the first of the planets; and therefore when Saturn is but moderately well fortified in this house, and in any benevolent aspect of Jupiter, Venus, Sun or Moon, it promises a good sober constitution of body, and usually long life"’
Oh yeah that system, you are right. I will just say it is Chaldean based on the order, but it certainly originates in the Medieval tradition, being absent from the Hellenistic tradition, and the ''Chaldeans'' most probably did not even have seven-zone/heptazone (the original name of the chaldean order) much less houses, but those misnomers might be wholly other topic.
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Unread 10-23-2018, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Oh yeah that system, you are right. I will just say it is Chaldean based on the order, but it certainly originates in the Medieval tradition, being absent from the Hellenistic tradition, and the ''Chaldeans'' most probably did not even have seven-zone/heptazone (the original name of the chaldean order) much less houses, but those misnomers might be wholly other topic.
Itís difficult to follow a set of rules, especially when the rules tend to bend depending on whose interpretation to use for delineating or inferring data. Assessing planetary strength properly, and inferring what any two points, aspects or dimensions to use is proving difficult.
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  #21  
Unread 10-24-2018, 12:04 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post
It’s difficult to follow a set of rules, especially when the rules tend to bend depending on whose interpretation to use for delineating or inferring data. Assessing planetary strength properly, and inferring what any two points, aspects or dimensions to use is proving difficult.
I could have one potential solution for your problem that I personally adopt. If we focus on the theoretical planetary strength using all factors it might be useful to use take into account all relative positions and tables (I personally made my own using Hellenistic considerations, being dissatisfied with the medieval and renaissance tables or ones based for almutens - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121676).

However, if one studies a topic, it would be much easier and better to focus on just few primary factors - angularity, domicile, exaltation, retrograde or direct, sect and aspects. Whether a planet is favorably placed, slightly favorably placed, average, slightly unfavorably placed or unfavorably placed can be easily glanced in a few seconds using those conditions.

And another hint, instead of trying to focus on the stars and trying to come up with potential manifestations based on the placements, I find it much easier to focus on the topic, and then investigate the planets that are related to that topic, for example the houserulers. Ptolemy mentions this difficulty in the early authors, who try to use all planets, aspects and house placements at the same time, instead of focusing on parents, siblings, occupation, marriage, travel etc. one by one as Ptolemy does in the Tetrabiblos.

Last edited by petosiris; 10-24-2018 at 12:14 AM.
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  #22  
Unread 10-24-2018, 04:58 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

Traditional astrology doesn't do psychology per se, if by that we mean the discipline founded by Freud, Jung, and their students and associates. Traditional astrology does discuss temperament, which relates to the elements: choleric (fire,) sanguine (air,) phlegmatic (water,) and melancholic (earth.) A good book on temperament is Dorian Greenbaum: Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key.

Traditional astrologers also wrote about what I would call character or personality traits.

GR, if you don't see yourself as particularly Martial, do you think Saturn inhibits your Mars expression?
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Unread 10-24-2018, 08:11 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Traditional astrology doesn't do psychology per se, if by that we mean the discipline founded by Freud, Jung, and their students and associates.
Freud did not found psychology. Freud founded psychoanalysis which could be seen as part of the broad field of psychology. Generally, Wilhelm Wundt is regarded as the founder of modern psychology, for his focus on experimental psychology and for the founding of the first psychological laboratory.

However, even before him, in the 19th century there were growing number of philosophers distancing from philosophy and transitioning into psychology. A rival of Wundt, Franz Brentano considered Aristotle the founder of psychology (he explicitly talked about ''psychology'' in De Anima). Gustav Fechner was already conducting psychophysics in 1830s and he is credited with the discovery of the Weber-Fechner law.

Besides, I have read some of Freud and I don't ever find any kind of psychoanalysis in modern astrology. Perhaps the relationship with the parents are treated more psychologically, but I've never seen someone talk about a particular neurosis coming from some particular aspect, but you can correct me on that. In his ''A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis'' he warns the listener of his lectures that years of study and clinical practice are needed to become acquainted with his work.

''To be sure, this much I may presume that you do know, namely, that psychoanalysis is a method of treating nervous patients medically...
Of course I cannot predict how much psychoanalytic understanding you will gain from my lectures, but I can promise this, that by listening to them you will not learn how to undertake a psychoanalytic treatment or how to carry one to completion...
'' - https://eduardolbm.files.wordpress.c...mund-freud.pdf

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Traditional astrology does discuss temperament, which relates to the elements: choleric (fire,) sanguine (air,) phlegmatic (water,) and melancholic (earth.) A good book on temperament is Dorian Greenbaum: Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key.

Traditional astrologers also wrote about what I would call character or personality traits.
They also talked about religion, intelligence, mental illness and most other topics that concern the everyday individual.

Last edited by petosiris; 10-24-2018 at 08:31 AM.
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Unread 10-24-2018, 12:38 PM
GrignardReagent GrignardReagent is offline
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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

GR, if you don't see yourself as particularly Martial, do you think Saturn inhibits your Mars expression?
Well, perhaps family, or local life at home could have. Perhaps primary schooling years were more inhibited. However, I know that Mars is dexterous, so overcomes Saturn in that aspect relationship.

Mercury is more my concern since it makes a harsh aspect to Saturn, and both are retrograde. Internalization between them, and with Mercury Conjunct Mars, this perhaps makes communication difficult, which tends to be somewhat apparent when it comes to talking to family, or my childhood.
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Unread 10-24-2018, 01:08 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post

Well, perhaps family, or local life at home could have.
Perhaps primary schooling years were more inhibited.
However, I know that Mars is dexterous, so
overcomes Saturn in that aspect relationship.
Classical astrologers considered diurnal movement central to their art
and called it the natural motion of heaven.
Manilius explained that as a sign rises, its gaze is directed towards
the signs that rose before it, not at those which rise after it.
Aries looks forward towards Aquarius by sextile,
Capricorn by square
and Sagittarius by trine:

'....Capricorn views Libra, whilst the Ram sees Capricorn ahead
and is in turn beheld at an equal distance by the Crab, and
the Crab is perceived by Libra's leftward stars as it follows up:
for preceding signs are reckoned as right signs.
A dexter aspect is therefore more direct.

Because the line of sight is carried by diurnal motion it has a stronger influence
than a sinister one and is more likely to produce an uncomplicated, expressive effect....'
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dexter.html







Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post

Mercury is more my concern since it makes a harsh aspect to Saturn, and
both are retrograde.
Internalization between them, and with Mercury Conjunct Mars, this
perhaps makes communication difficult, which
ends to be somewhat apparent when it comes to talking to family, or
my childhood.
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