Finding the right birth hour - please help?

I have downloaded Morinus software and am looking at those tables it gives for Almutens.

JA, I guess you do have Morinus and use it sometimes as it is good for the traditional astrology?

Can you guide me a bit more?

Am looking at the table that comes out of Morinus when I use the F3 method and choose Tables/Almutens/chart

There is a table for essential dignities and then another one for accidental ones and then at the bottom of that page it gives "Grand scores" and that is where I look at the Almutens giving the highest Grand score for each ASC and this is then called Lord of the Geniture = Almuten taking into account both accidental and essential dignities:

1. Cancer 6° gives Mercury as Almuten and Cancer at 3° gives Jupiter as Almuten
2. Gemini at 1° gives Mercury also
3. Aries at 1-2° gives Jupiter as Almuten and also at 6° ... but at 8° it becomes the Moon and if I go into the middle of Aries the Almuten becomes Saturn and also at the last third of Aries
4. Sagittarius in the beginning gives Mercury as Almuten but changes to Saturn if I go into the middle of SAG; (I don't think SAG is the ASC though - it doesn't fit as well as Aries with solar return charts) ...

So lots of possibilities here
I guess it is not time for the Almuten until I've found the most likely candidate for ASC by looking into past events with all kinds of methods of confirmation.

Almuten for only essential dignities would be different ones.

Also found this thread in education board with tables for Almutens:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26272

Arena said:

I have downloaded Morinus software and am looking at those tables it gives for Almutens.

JA, I guess you do have Morinus and use it sometimes as it is good for the traditional astrology?

Can you guide me a bit more?

Am looking at the table that comes out of Morinus when I use the F3 method and choose Tables/Almutens/chart

There is a table for essential dignities and then another one for accidental ones and then at the bottom of that page it gives "Grand scores" and that is where I look at the Almutens giving the highest Grand score for each ASC:

1. Cancer 6° gives Mercury as Almuten and Cancer at 3° gives Jupiter as Almuten
2. Gemini at 1° gives Mercury also
3. Aries at 1-2° gives Jupiter as Almuten and also at 6° ... but at 8° it becomes the Moon and if I go into the middle of Aries the Almuten becomes Saturn and also at the last third of Aries
4. Sagittarius in the beginning gives Mercury as Almuten but changes to Saturn if I go into the middle of SAG; (I don't think SAG is the ASC though - it doesn't fit as well as Aries with solar return charts) ...

So lots of possibilities here
I guess it is not time for the Almuten until I've found the most likely candidate for ASC by looking into past events with all kinds of methods of confirmation.

Click to expand...

I use Rumen Kolev's software PLACIDUS 7 and PORPHYRIUS MAGUS
these provide numerous alternative almutens
according to the preferences of various ancient astrological authors http://www.babylonianastrology.com/...&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

By the way, remember that in Book I of Valen's Anthologies, chapter 4. (page 8 of the Riley pdf) he describes several methods for finding the ascendant. The first of these uses the dodekatemorion

QUOTE:
'....Having determined accurately the sun's degree position at the nativity, note where the dodekatemorion falls.

The sign in trine to the left of this position will be the Ascendant,
or the equilivalent sign (i.e. either masculine or feminine)
providing you take into account the distinction between night and day births.
For example: let the sun be in Aquarius 22*. The dodekatemorion of this point is in Scorpio...' and so on

... just to give also results for the Almutem Figuris by calculation of Morinus software it gives the highest number count in the table called "essential" :

1. Cancer in early degrees gives equal points for Jupiter and the Moon
2. Gemini ASC first degrees gives Mercury and Jupiter
3. Aries in first degrees gives Jupiter and in middle gives Sun and Moon

I think I may have to discard SAG ASC ...
I'll do some more SR charts to compare all those.

So if I use this Dodekatemorion then the position of the Sun only changes a tiny bit from Aries ASC all the way to Cancer ... so i can multiply it by 12?

Dodekatemorion is used (in natal, event and mundane charts) to see the additional ramifications of the "shadow" of the planet (or degree or Lot) in the chart; there are 2 types of dodek: Egypitan and Pauline:
-in Egyptian you multiply the degree and minutes of the planet (or Lot) by 12, then subtract 30 for every sign it crosses (starting with the sign the planet or Lot is in), and when you cannot subtract 30 anymore, that is where the dodek (shadow) falls
Example: what is the dodek of Saturn in 15Aries00?
Answer = 15 x 12 = 130; subtract 30 for every sign starting with Aries: so -Aries = 100 left; minus Taurus = 70 left; minus Gemini = 40 left; minus Cancer = 10 left; since you cannot subtract 30 from 10, the dodek of Saturn falls @ 10Leo.

Click to expand...

Is this the right example to use?
So if I just use 10° to round off the Sun's pos. and do not put the decimals on the Sun's position in my chart ... then
10*12= 120 ... then count forward moving the Sun ... it means exactly 4 signs into the Sagittarius ... and the trine to SAG. is ARIES ... and if I use the same degree of the Sun, it means 10° Aries... I guess that can be adjusted further.

...And then remembering this method we started with (but then you need to know approximate ASC...

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=515158&postcount=60

when I go through all the method of prenatal epoch rectification it shows the Moon in conception chart of 14th Nov. is at 14° Libra, giving an ASC inside the middle of Aries instead of in the 1st°.

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...And then again - do I have to think of the declination that poyi has pointed out?

Almuten Figuris for :

Aries 10° is Venus
Aries 14° are Sun and Moon

Arena said:

So if I use this Dodekatemorion then the position of the Sun only changes a tiny bit from Aries ASC all the way to Cancer ... so i can multiply it by 12?


Is this the right example to use?
So if I just use 10° to round off the Sun's pos. and do not put the decimals on the Sun's position in my chart ... then
10*12= 120 ... then count forward moving the Sun ... it means exactly 4 signs into the Sagittarius ... and the trine to SAG. is ARIES ... and if I use the same degree of the Sun, it means 10° Aries... I guess that can be adjusted further.

Click to expand...

Chapter 1 Page 8 of the Vettius Valens pdf has complete instructions - Chapter Heading is:
4. Finding the Ascendant http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

JUPITERASC said:

Chapter 1 Page 8 of the Vettius Valens pdf has complete instructions - Chapter Heading is:
4. Finding the Ascendant http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

Click to expand...

Yes I did read that ... am I doing something wrong?

He seems to be describing more than one method in the beginning of that chapter. It starts by saying:

4. Finding the Ascendant.
Having determined accurately the sun’s degree-position at the nativity, note where the dodekatemorion falls. The sign in trine to the left of this position will be the Ascendant, or the equivalent sign (i.e. either masculine or feminine), providing you take into account the distinction between night and day births. For example: let the sun be in Aquarius 22°. The dodekatemorion of this point is in Scorpio; the sign in trine to the left is Pisces. If the birth was in the day, either Pisces or Taurus or Cancer must be the Ascendant.
If the birth was at night, one of the diametrically opposite signs <must be>. Virgo would be in the Ascendant in the first hour <of the night>.

Click to expand...

He seems to describe several different methods of finding the ASC?

I thought I had done the first method quoted above - finding the dodekatemorion by multiplying the Sun's natal degree with 12 - right? ... and then going to the point that gives which falls in Sagittarius (10*12=120 ...120/30=4... so move four signs forward from the Sun's pos. ... comes to SAG... and the sign trine to SAG to the left is Aries which he says would be the ASC .

...but then he says

or the equivalent sign (i.e. either masculine or feminine), providing you take into account the distinction between night and day births.

Click to expand...

...and he gives three different results for ASC with a wide range, Pisces, Taurus or Cancer (feminine signs) - OR the opposite sign if nightbirth.

So as I said before this time I'm born adds to the confusion as if I go all the way to the Aries ASC, then the time is just before sunset (so a daybirth by definition) ...but IF we use later birth hours going into Gemini or Cancer ASC - then it is after sunset, so nightbirth by definition and that means I would take the opposite of Aries.

Arena said:

Yes I did read that ... am I doing something wrong?

He seems to be describing more than one method in the beginning of that chapter. It starts by saying:

He seems to describe several different methods of finding the ASC?

I thought I had done the first method quoted above - finding the dodekatemorion by multiplying the Sun's natal degree with 12 - right? ... and then going to the point that gives which falls in Sagittarius (10*12=120 ...120/30=4... so move four signs forward from the Sun's pos. ... comes to SAG... and the sign trine to SAG to the left is Aries which he says would be the ASC .

...but then he says

...and he gives three different results for ASC with a wide range, Pisces, Taurus or Cancer (feminine signs) - OR the opposite sign if nightbirth.

So as I said before this time I'm born adds to the confusion as if I go all the way to the Aries ASC, then the time is just before sunset (so a daybirth by definition) ...but IF we use later birth hours going into Gemini or Cancer ASC - then it is after sunset, so nightbirth by definition and that means I would take the opposite of Aries.

Click to expand...

Valens was using the Egyptian method and began the count from the degree of the planet whose dodekatemorion was being determined - at least in the example cited.


Valens would NOT have been using the Pauline method. Furthermore, in Book I Valens does not explicitly state whether he uses,Pauline or Egyptian reckoning nor does he describe how he got to Scorpio AND does not say at WHICH degree of Scorpio. Some say Valens wrote in code in order to protect the information he chronicled

JUPITERASC said:

Valens was using the Egyptian method and began the count from the degree of the planet whose dodekatemorion was being determined - at least in the example cited.


Valens would NOT have been using the Pauline method. Furthermore, in Book I Valens does not explicitly state whether he uses,Pauline or Egyptian reckoning nor does he describe how he got to Scorpio AND does not say at WHICH degree of Scorpio. Some say Valens wrote in code in order to protect the information he chronicled

Click to expand...

Yes, I also read that in the forum ... but in my case it does not change the outcome ... the dodk. would fall into SAG anyway... if you count by taking 30 degr. for each sign, then I would end up at 0-1 degr. SAG ... but if I use the method like Valens, then I come into 10-11 degr. SAG ... but in both cases it is Aries that trines the dodk....

So can you please point out if I'm in error with this method from the first paragraph in Valens book 4?

Is it right to conclude that the ASC would be Aries ... or now I have to include also the possibility of the opposite to Aries (for night birth)?

poyi said:

Is ok. I am very pi$$ed in general recently since work had been like hell. When I mean hell, that is real hell in both emotional, mental, physical levels. So I lost my cool and didn't enjoy the best of astrology.

I had replied the Chinese methods for recrifiying birth time, if you like to minimizing the potential ascendant by using number of siblings and hair circle. Interesting method. You can use your children to look into their hair circles and length of their little fingers as a trial of these methods.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69705

Click to expand...

It is a funny method the chinese have and I've seen this in a forum before somewhere. I'm not sure it works though
It seems like by this method my birth hour would be the middle group, Hai hour 21-23 so it would actually eliminate Cancer ASC. ... But am not sure it is consistent as I have the hair circle on the right ... and my little finger seems to be on the line of ring finger - or maybe just 1 mm higher than line.

Do you believe this method to be consistant?

I would have thought that chinese and western astrology would coincide and "agree" on birth hour ... acc. to this method my hour would be Hai hour ... and yet the chinese astrology analysis seems to fit better with me being born in Zi hour and being a Bing fire day master, rather than Yi wood... but like I said before there were so many different opinions on that too, so people did differ.
But at least in that method there were only two different charts to compare, but not 3-4!!!

So the exploration continues.

Arena said:

Yes, I also read that in the forum ... but in my case it does not change the outcome ... the dodk. would fall into SAG anyway... if you count by taking 30 degr. for each sign, then I would end up at 0-1 degr. SAG ... but if I use the method like Valens, then I come into 10-11 degr. SAG ... but in both cases it is Aries that trines the dodk....

So can you please point out if I'm in error with this method from the first paragraph in Valens book 4?

Is it right to conclude that the ASC would be Aries ... or now I have to include also the possibility of the opposite to Aries (for night birth)?

Click to expand...

Valens was a working astrologer,
proficient in math
and thoughtfully provides many useful mathematical tables
to assist with using the methods he describes
so one needs to search the pdf
to find the tables and then apply the method

Valens discusses numerous methods of finding the Ascendant including in Chapter IX as well as the Appendix and elsewhere in Riley's free translation

There is simply no substitute for reading and studying the pdf
simply because there are limits to what one is allowed to quote on our forum
and also a thorough analysis of your question could take many hours. As you have discovered, rectification is a time consuming exercise

I have already provided a link http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

Robert Schmidt has also compiled a Basic HELLENISTIC NATAL ASTROLOGY COURSE available at http://www.projecthindsight.com/

I have not done enough research to be sure the Chinese method 100% accurate. However in Chinese occult we often links both the physical manifestations with the natal to confirm birth time. An other example natal functions in physical reality as medical manifestations, my sister was born soon after the total solar eclipse, she has got beautiful big eyes but very poor eye sights the eclipse happend on full moon day which also represents the afflicted relationship of our parents as well as her eyes sight. Anyhow I think you have many options to consider. But the principle is the same the natal will always leaving your messages in your physical appearance as well as your life experiences. Everything has to fit and confirm each other perfectly.

astro.com has many options

but the first chart style, WEB STYLE(you don't have to change a thing, it's set up for you) is easy to read or liz greene style

Example chart easier to read by most:

Click to expand...

JA, I just found out that Morinus has this option of making profections.

Any particular settings you recommend before starting?

I use the whole house system. I might compare into Alcabitius when I am getting a bit closer to finding the ASC.

poyi said:

For chart one your mother's death. If the natal chart is accurate, Venus is the ruler of the 4th. Transit Venus (mother/father and home) and Mercury (news) at the time conjoined transit North node and also semi square natal NN. Transit Venus (natal 4th house lord) ruled transit Saturn placed in your Lunar return 3rd house but overlapping your natal 4th house. I would see that as the link between news and home/parents.

In the lunar chart, Jupiter and Venus were in mutual reception by signs. On the day of return it was 145 degrees, if it was 150 quincunx it would mean it bringing new situation that you must learn to adjust. However, the day of perfected quincunx you can check if that was the day of death. See that Jupiter was in 10th house, 4th/IC and 10th/MC are both parental houses. Since natal Moon in Taurus, Venus in mutual reception with Jupiter also connected to the Moon, so lunar Moon was ruling the lunar 12th house. See that lunar MC was at almost exact conjunction with natal Chiron at 10th house.

Note that Moon is almost same degrees as lunar AC. Transit Sun your Lunar Sun was in Scorpio, opposed Lunar Moon, it was a full moon lunar return, matter of completion and ending soon after the full moon phase. Lunar Sun rules Lunar AC, while AC square Moon. These had connected the 1st, 4th and 10th house of the lunar chart, not so sure how to interpret this but it seem to involve yourself and your parents as Lunar Sun, Lunar Moon and Lunar AC formed a T-square.

The other connection would be transit Jupiter placed in lunar 10th but as the traditional ruler of 8th, Neptune as the modern ruler was at the whole sign cusp of 8th conjoining Chiron while entering 8th, again check the exact perfected conjunction of Neptune and Chiron.

So far these are what I can see as potential indicators.


Lunar Mercury was unhappy in Sagittarius. On the other hand, lunar Venus and Mercury were approaching the exact antiscia with natal MC.

You can read what I mean by antiscia and contra antisica here.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/antiscia.html

Click to expand...

I want to thank you for participation poyi, even though I seem to have pissed you off a bit the other day. Hope you feel better now.

I post lunar return for mother's death month for Aries ASC here.
Seems more clear to me for indicating death and loss, but again I may be wrong.

Lunar 1st house falls on the natal 5th where the house ruler is the Sun.
Sun is placed in Scorpio, which is natal 8th house and lunar 4th house (parents and home) falls.
Lunar 12th house comes to natal 4th which is indicative of loss as well.
The moon is in 10th house of career - but also connected to MC and parents.

If I take the SAG Asc, then the lunar 1st house simply falls into the natal 8th. But the moon is in natal 6th and lunar 11th.

But using Gemini or Cancer rising the 8th house is not directly involved like in the other two possible rising signs.

I'm just posting this for research reasons, not to argue, but rather hoping still to learn.

Originally Posted by poyi
For chart one your mother's death. If the natal chart is accurate, Venus is the ruler of the 4th. Transit Venus (mother/father and home) and Mercury (news) at the time conjoined transit North node and also semi square natal NN. Transit Venus (natal 4th house lord) ruled transit Saturn placed in your Lunar return 3rd house but overlapping your natal 4th house. I would see that as the link between news and home/parents.

In the lunar chart, Jupiter and Venus were in mutual reception by signs. On the day of return it was 145 degrees, if it was 150 quincunx it would mean it bringing new situation that you must learn to adjust. However, the day of perfected quincunx you can check if that was the day of death. See that Jupiter was in 10th house, 4th/IC and 10th/MC are both parental houses. Since natal Moon in Taurus, Venus in mutual reception with Jupiter also connected to the Moon, so lunar Moon was ruling the lunar 12th house. See that lunar MC was at almost exact conjunction with natal Chiron at 10th house.

Note that Moon is almost same degrees as lunar AC. Transit Sun your Lunar Sun was in Scorpio, opposed Lunar Moon, it was a full moon lunar return, matter of completion and ending soon after the full moon phase. Lunar Sun rules Lunar AC, while AC square Moon. These had connected the 1st, 4th and 10th house of the lunar chart, not so sure how to interpret this but it seem to involve yourself and your parents as Lunar Sun, Lunar Moon and Lunar AC formed a T-square.

The other connection would be transit Jupiter placed in lunar 10th but as the traditional ruler of 8th, Neptune as the modern ruler was at the whole sign cusp of 8th conjoining Chiron while entering 8th, again check the exact perfected conjunction of Neptune and Chiron.

So far these are what I can see as potential indicators.


Lunar Mercury was unhappy in Sagittarius. On the other hand, lunar Venus and Mercury were approaching the exact antiscia with natal MC.

You can read what I mean by antiscia and contra antisica here.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/antiscia.html

Click to expand...

I suggest you to read what I wrote again. If you think you should be either Sagittarius or Gemini ascendant, then use these two charts to make prediction and to observe if they are consistent. If you are already set your own mind to have certain ascendants then you will not be able to make objective observation and therefore doing your own chart especially without accurate birth time is extremely unproductive.

The only productive way is to use Gemini and Sagittarius chart to read if the messages fitting your life from the day of birth comparing with the timing you known that are significant in the past, also to record current and future significant events to adjust the ascendant degree. This process of perfecting the chart will take few months or decades. On top of that you will need to learn, solar return, lunar return, solar arcs, progressions, and transits. There is no easy way to escape learning all the essential skills. Having the accurate birth time and read your own chart is already very difficult, as by human nature we only want the best and only want the positives, so without the accurate birth time, how you control yourself to stay objective that is highly questionable. Rather one has objective attitude and mind with logical pathway with minimal emotions and attachment that is again highly related to your own natal promises.

In my opinion you can continue learning. But perhaps should learn to read other people charts to learn the above essential skills before attempting to reverse engineering your own chart. If you can't use other people accurate birth time to assess their past, present as well as predicting future, to me that is lack of common sense to attempt your own when you have not got enough skills and wanted to start with you own chart without accurate birth time. I didn't start with Western astrology, but learning to read my own birth chart since 14, 15 years old, for about 15 years now, now with both Western and Chinese methods but mainly Western, I continue to discover and adjust my own interpretation to become more objective cool headed Thank God of my Capricorn Moon and Mercury. It is only possible as I have my own accurate birth time which is proven accurate as I saw major event approaching that was accident and operation based on solar eclipse, configuration and midpoints in both solar return, lunar return, as well as progression/transits but as I said only because I already have accurate birth time to start with so I could learn from my own chart and events. So in my opinion, you should really start with someone else who had accurate birth time such as your own children.

Your Sagittarius chart, I don't know why you have MC and AC in the 1st house that doesn't look right to me.

I do not quite understand why you would advise people not to try to rectify their chart for learning purposes?

I know we need objective attitude and I'm trying to keep that as I look at the chart, I just try to look at the technicalities and if the chart is "telling a clear story" at certain points in life.
I've learned a lot already by looking into this - starting out with almost only knowing a little about the transits - I've now read about solar returns, lunar returns, sec. progressions and am now looking into profections and possibility of using sidereal chart. I've looked into modern methods and traditional methods.
It's probably the best way to learn as the eagerness is awakened because of not being sure of accurate birth time.

It is also very hard to study my children as they have not really had major life events yet - except for my oldest son who moved with me abroad and has now got two siblings. Other events would be hard to measure against his chart as they are not major and therefore hard to test.

But I can use a friend's chart though.

Your Sagittarius chart, I don't know why you have MC and AC in the 1st house that doesn't look right to me.

Click to expand...

It's because of the latitude where I'm born.

Similar thing happens in the Cancer ASC chart, ASC and IC fall into 1st house and DSC and MC fall into the 7th house.

poyi said:

I didn't read most of the replies here just sharing some sudden ideas.

The other cheating method came to my mind is to watch transit to your North node, and when it is significant enough to trigger event as as Conjunction, Square, Opposition or in parallel/contra parallel these will create enough energy to bring matter to your consciousness when such transit comes to you, then you can reflect on the nature of the event reverse engineering back to the potential houses.

North node is slow moving and stay in that sign and relative not much different in degrees for a day or two. So you can ask yourself what do you desire most in life and what comes nature to you that you can easy express that will be your south node then you can relate back to the potential houses along with the signs NN and SN are at.

The fast moving planets will bring fast and short life event while slow moving planet will bring slow but profound event to the node. Other than planet, reflecting back on the timing of your last North Node return and transit south node conjuncts North node. Moon nodes has about 18 years cycle. Chase back the event that occurred at the time when the north node return is at exact day. Then relate that even to the appropriate houses.

Click to expand...

I suddenly remembered this first post you came up with poyi and thought it might be a good idea to see what is happening around the Nodes on important event dates. I used the day today to do this study.

I'm guessing what you are saying above might suggest us what the planets are ruling?

I put the list in this post as attached picture.
This list is ONLY what happens at the Nodes.

I see a "trend" when I get pregnant or have children. Tr.Nodes are transiting Leo. Venus and Jupiter are also involved.

When I marry Venus is involved and Neptune.

When I moved abroad I see that Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune are all involved. I see that Neptune was a long time transiting Nnode and all that time I did extensive travelling.

Just found an interesting article about ruler's placement in natal chart - can help with rectification I guess.

I rested my search for ASC for a while and looked into Magi astrology, which I find very very interesting - and it does not need ASC.

But now I am searching again as it would give me satisfaction to also know in which houses my planets are placed.

Just read about a few rulers in houses here:
http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/rulersofhousesinhouses.html

...and after the read I find it almost impossible that I could be Cancer rising with placement of ruler of 7th and ruler of 4th an 11th house inside the 12th house natal.

...so am still exploring