Will we get married

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. You're definitely free to use whatever house for whatever you want to use it for, but you made a false/misleading statement.

Like I said, this is demonstrably false. What makes it interesting is that the sources you include are all authors who have written within the 1900s. I guess that technically counts as "for centuries" or a "long tradition" since we are now in the 2000s, but it's certainly disingenuous.

While I'm currently away from home and unable to properly demonstrate the placement of marriage within the twelve houses of heaven throughout history, what I can do is offer a little something from the Hellenists.

Marcus Manilius (1st century CE) assigned marriage to the Tenth house because, to him, it was the joy of Venus. The Ninth house is merely referred to as the house of God, but no real significations are identified. To make matters more complicated, Manilius does not suggest that the Seventh house is significant of marriage (seventh is death in his system), but the Descendant itself is.

Vettius Valens (2nd century CE) includes such topics as "The descendant, marriage, success, an affair with a woman, friendship, travel" as being significations of the seventh house. The ninth house he lists such things as "Friendship, travel, benefits from foreigners, God, King, magnates, astrology, oracles, apperances of the gods, mystic and occult matters, associations".

Paul of Alexandria (4th century CE) says about the Seventh:
I am particularly fond of the title "anti-ascendant".

About the Ninth he says
I would be happy to continue when I get home and chronicle the placement of marriage throughout the Arabic and Latin periods before wrapping up in the time of Lilly and Gadburry. It would be very repetitive and I really think this little sampling from the Hellenists demonstrates the idea just fine.

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Sailor Moon:

You're making a mountain out of a molehile.

I'm just not going to buy it.

I have repeatedly stated throughout this site that I am a modern horary astrologer.

The pioneers of modern horary astrology are Barbara Watters, and Diana Stone, who both have assigned the 9th house as matrimony going back 50 years.

Both are mentors of mine.

I have little or no interest in medieval astrology and many whom you quote are astrological dinosaurs whom I do not follow and thus, are meaningless to me.

The medieval era is completely irrelevant to the 21st century, in terms of marriage and also, legality issues therein.



- HM

horarymaster said:

Sailor Moon:

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?

horarymaster said:

You're making a mountain out of a molehile.

I'm just not going to buy it.

I have repeatedly stated throughout this site
that I am a modern horary astrologer.

The pioneers of modern horary astrology are Barbara Watters, and Diana Stone, who both have assigned the 9th house as matrimony going back 50 years.

Both are mentors of mine.

I have little or no interest in medieval astrology and many whom you quote are astrological dinosaurs whom I do not follow and thus, are meaningless to me.

The medieval era is completely irrelevant to the 21st century, in terms of marriage and also, legality issues therein.


- HM

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This thread is posted in General Astrology
where any technique, whether modern, traditional, ancient or medieval is allowed.
As such, Kaiousei no Senshi's post is entirely reasonable
What is unreasonable is to bait Kaiousei no Senshi by referring to him as 'Sailor Moon'
which, given the tenor of your response, is far from friendly.
You also then accuse Kaiousei no Senshi of what you yourself are doing.


FURTHERMORE

Your opinion that medieval astrologers are now relegated by you to the status of 'astrological dinosaurs'
is obviously not shared by for example Robert Hand, a world-renowned astrologer
who successfully utilises BOTH Modern AND medieval astrological techniques to good effect thus demonstrating clearly
that the medieval era IS NOT 'completely irrelevant to the 21st century'.
In fact, modern horary astrologers of necessity also use methods advocated by medieval astrologers.
and neither Barbara Watters nor Diana Stone
invented horary astrology


By the way,
astrologers quoted by Kaiousei no Senshi include Marcus Manilius, Vettius Valens and Paul of Alexandria
these are HELLENISTIC rather than MEDIEVAL astrologers


The fact that you 'do not follow' the guidance of the Hellenistic and Medieval astrologers quoted by Kaiousei no Senshi
does not invalidate their methods which ARE followed by other contributors on this thread


For clarification, Main Rulerships of 9th house:

'…...Long distance travel, voyages
journeys that take us to unfamiliar environment.
Overseas, foreign countries, distant places.
Foreigners, pilgrims, explorers.
Places and situations where we seek guidance and wisdom from others
reaching into the unknown in search of widening our knowledge and understanding.
Dreams, visions, inspired thoughts, divination, astrology, mysticism, philosophy, beliefs;
the desire to unite with something greater than oneself.
Religion, clergy of any kind. Affairs of the church.
Books, learning, wisdom, scholarships, university, all forms of higher education.
Ramesey notes: "all manner of students, such as astrologers, physitians, lawyers,
and all students of other good learning altogether"....'
([AR], bk2. p.108)




'…..Scholars and practitioners of law are attributed to 9th house
confusion often exists whether lawyers/law enforcement officers should be associated with 9th house or 10th.
9th house represents guidance, advice from those more knowledgeable than ourselves,
lawyers, counsellors, advisors generally fall under principles of 9th house when acting in advisory capacity.
Law, as a means of enforcing a ruling over others, belongs to 10th house,
house of authority and rulership.
Hence lawyers and solicitors are attributed to the 9th,
whereas judges and magistrates are attributed to the 10th.
If a matter of law is being considered with respect to a ruling,
the decision or outcome should be judged from the 10th house....' http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h9.html

horarymaster said:

We agree to disagree, Sailor Moon !

There is a long astrological tradition between the 9th house and matrimony.
-HM

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Sailor Moon???

in comparison with at least two thousand years of existing astrological House significations tradition
dating from HELLENISTIC times
to imply that 50 years of experimental practice by only two specifically 'pioneer modern astrologers'

i.e.
Barbara Watters and Diana Stone

is 'a long astrological tradition' is misleading information
to present to many beginners who may be studying this thread
on our astrological learning forum

Horarymaster,

I apologize for my response coming across as overbearing (this is why I stopped after only a couple of examples).

I understand you are a modern horary astrologer, but when modern horary astrologers say that their techniques are based on "a long astrological tradition" and that your techniques have been used "for centuries", I will be quick to point out that they are not. I don't think saying someone is incorrect is an "inflammatory remark" (certainly no more inflammatory as coming up with a cutesy nick-name for someone you don't know...) but I can see how someone who is not used to being corrected or challenged could perceive it that way.

Anyway, I apologize for the way this discussion turned out and I will do better in our next exchange.

Thank you Kaiousei no Senshi for apologizing to HoraryMaster.
HoraryMaster, I hope you will accept. I believe you both have valuable Horary skills, there is room for both on this forum.

As for technique, discussing different horary methods is welcomed in the forum however let's do so respectfully and without insults or trying to prove someone wrong.

Vista

JUPITERASC said:

Sailor Moon???

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Actually, Kaiousei no Senshi means Neptune / Ruler (king) of the ocean in Japanese. Maybe Kai himself can help with translation.

IMO, HM didn't mean to show disrespect with this.

As for the house of matrimony, I support traditional view.

Cap said:

IMO, HM didn't mean to show disrespect with this.

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Actually he did mean to show disrespect....and that is pretty clear. If he wanted to adress him with a "shorter" name he would have said something like "Kaiou" or similar.

And he adressed him like that over and over and over again.

If you look at HM's posts he tends to act like that often.

Honestly the conversation about the 9th house was an interesting one. Not sure why people need to engage in offensive argument when someone disagree's with them.

I sort of agree with Jupiterasc and Kaiou's stance on the 9th house (being traditionalist myself), that the 9th house's only relation to marriage could be in the sense of the minister performing the ceremony, but that's it.

In fact if you want to describe the "relationship" itself, as in the state of the marriage, the part of marriage would be much better for this.

Was a nice discussion, it would be nice if we can continue it, either here or in another topic, without agression of course.

海王星の戦士 would literally translate to "Soldier of the Sea King's Star" but I would just read it as "Neptune's soldier". But this is a reference to a Sailor Moon character, so that's where that came from. However, I will go on record as saying Sailor Neptune is much better than Sailor Moon, so there.

Back in '06 I was big into the Japanese culture and language, but a few years ago I got more interested in China and started learning Mandarin. I had considered changing my forum name to reflect this but I thought Haiwangxing de Shibing would just be too much. Plus I'm not sure if the forum would have allowed for the special tonal characters to make it clear. :/ Oh well.

Either way, let's keep it respectful with "Kai", "Kaiousei", or my personal favorite "KnS".

Anyway...this has been Translations and Astrology by Kai TM

Dirius said:

In fact if you want to describe the "relationship" itself, as in the state of the marriage, the part of marriage would be much better for this.

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This could definitely be an interesting angle to take it. Which calculation for the Lot of Marriage would you use? Would you consider something similar with the Sun/Venus relationship?

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

海王星の戦士 would literally translate to "Soldier of the Sea King's Star" but I would just read it as "Neptune's soldier".

Back in '06 I was big into the Japanese culture and language, but a few years ago I got more interested in China and started learning Mandarin. I had considered changing my forum name to reflect this but I thought Haiwangxing de Shibing would just be too much. Plus I'm not sure if the forum would have allowed for the special tonal characters to make it clear. :/ Oh well.

Either way, let's keep it respectful with "Kai", "Kaiousei", or my personal favorite "KnS".

Anyway...this has been Translations and Astrology by Kai TM



This could definitely be an interesting angle to take it. Which calculation for the Lot of Marriage would you use? Would you consider something similar with the Sun/Venus relationship?

Click to expand...

Regarding the Venus/Sun, I always find myself doubtfull about their meaning.

Many say they serve to describe the relationship, as in venus applying to sun is good, venus separating bad.

Other use them as co-signifiers, which to me isn't really accurate, because usually both the sun and venus seem to signify other people.

Personally I think the sun/venus movement can describe the relationship, if the question is ONLY about the relationship itself. And only if neither of them are the rulers of the 1st/7th. But I generally like to avoid using sun and venus as co-signifiers.

As in:"Does he love me? Is he going to leave me? How does she feel about me?" or questions along those lines, that would imply that the whole chart is about how the person feel's.

To me sun and venus usually just represent other people, or other "things" in the chart that affect the main planets(1st/7th).

I like using the part of marriage, because it really does describe the "bond" sort of speak between the people, even the legal binding when the question is about the marriage itself.

The state of the dispositor of the part of marriage always describes how the bond between those people are affected, for example lets say mercury is the ruler, and finds itself in sagittarius, clearly the relationship is not well.

I've been reading a lot lately about the 7 hermetic lots, and I'm really interested in using those. The problem's I find are the formula's.

Dorotheus, vallens, etc all give different formulas.

- Currently the formula I use is J.Frawley's formula for Horary (and only for horary):Asc + Desc - venus , because I think it truly describes the part for ruler for the querent and quiesited.

- In natal I use vallens, Asc+sun-venus for men (moon/mars women), because it describes when the person will agree to marry someone.

Natal work is about the person, while horary is about 2

But that is my theory, of course I can be wrong .

--------------------------
***For those just joining/reading the conversation:

"Arabic part" = "Lot"

Hermetic Lot is the way the hellenic authors refer to the parts. They used 7. The lots itself are not "arabic" in origin, its just the popular name given to them (because arab astrologers created many more, after the original 7).

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

This could definitely be an interesting angle to take it.

Which calculation for the Lot of Marriage would you use?

Would you consider something similar with the Sun/Venus relationship?

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Avrahim Ibn Ezra states:

'…..The 7th house has thirteen lots


One is the LOT OF MARRIAGE FOR BOTH MEN AND WOMEN
taken by day and by night from Venus to the setting degree
and cast from the ascendant


The second is the LOT OF MARRIAGE IN THE NATIVITY OF MEN
according to Enoch taken by day and by night from Saturn to Venus
and cast from the Ascendant

and according to Valens taken by day and by night from the Sun to Venus
and cast from the Ascendant.....'



'…..The Third is the LOT OF THE TIME OF MARRIAGE
taken by day and by night from the Sun to the Moon
and cast from the Ascendant


The Twelfth is the LOT OF QUARRELS
taken by day and by night from Mars to Jupiter
and cast from the Ascendant....'

source: THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM Avrahim Ibn Ezra
ARHAT translation by Meira B Epstein.
Edited with additional annotations by Robert Hand

Dirius said:

Regarding the Venus/Sun, I always find myself doubtfull about their meaning.

Many say they serve to describe the relationship, as in venus applying to sun is good, venus separating bad.

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Yes, this is typically how I use it. Sun and Venus applying or in the same sign is good, in different signs or separating are typically bad. This method is based on the considerations for a fleeing wife. I've had some good success with it, but I never put too much importance on it. It's good for determining the stage of a relationship, but as a tertiary consideration the connections L1 and L7 make are always going to be more important.

A little sad to hear it hasn't worked out for you. It's one of my favorites.

I like using the part of marriage, because it really does describe the "bond" sort of speak between the people, even the legal binding when the question is about the marriage itself.

The state of the dispositor of the part of marriage always describes how the bond between those people are affected, for example lets say mercury is the ruler, and finds itself in sagittarius, clearly the relationship is not well.

Click to expand...

Bringing this conversation back around to its beginning (as I am so skilled at doing D: ), can you apply this to the OP's chart to give an example?

JUPITERASC said:

Avrahim Ibn Ezra states:

'…..The 7th house has thirteen lots

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Ugh...yes.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

Bringing this conversation back around to its beginning (as I am so skilled at doing D: ), can you apply this to the OP's chart to give an example?

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Of course, but did the OP remove ther chart/attachment? Cause I don't see any attachment in the first post

Or in any case we can use another chart.

This is the initial chart, so sorry for your conversations, I can not contribute in any way since my knowledge is quite poor. Thank you all for your replies.
http://www.imagesup.net/pm-714173778540.png

The Arabic part for this Horary chart, according to Dirious is:
Frawley's formula for Horary (and only for horary):Asc + Desc - venus , because I think it truly describes the part for ruler for the querent and quiesited:
VIRGO 0 1

And with my poor knowledge of horary and from what I have learned on this Forum is to always keep it simple especially when it comes to Horary. I know this chart is a confusion (as those matters of heart are at the moment - the chart is reflecting the situation) and there might be some other issues I dont wish to post publicly... If I knew, I wouldnt be posting a question.
Best regards

Thanks for re-uploading the chart natasa.

Yes 0° degrees virgo, so its ruler would be mercury:

Mercury is in 4° sagittarius, in its own detriment, implying that the relationship isn't essentially well, entering combustion very close to the sun.

Mercury has just recently changed signs, so could it be there was a change in the dynamic of the relationship recently??

Its a bit hard to use the part itself, a lot of interpretation is needed, but I think it helps.

Horarymaster

As you correctly point out, Cancer rules you, and Moon (ruler) is in Pisces, in the 9th house of matrimony.

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The Moon is always the co-significator of the querant.

However, the 9th is not the marriage. The 9th is the ceremony if done in a religious institution, definitely this is the case if a Church, Temple, Mosque, etc... .

The 7th is the house of marriage by Zadkiel's testimony which if 'An Introduction to Astrology' is consulted, by Zadkiel, if studied one will note he borrows this from Lilly.

Generally, the first aspect to the lord of the matter, the 7th is the indicator of what the matter becomes, yet other testimonies within the horary horoscope must be weighed!

ZadkielsGhost

ZadkielsGhost said:

Horarymaster



The Moon is always the co-significator of the querant.

However, the 9th is not the marriage. The 9th is the ceremony if done in a religious institution, definitely this is the case if a Church, Temple, Mosque, etc... .

The 7th is the house of marriage by Zadkiel's testimony which if 'An Introduction to Astrology' is consulted, by Zadkiel, if studied one will note he borrows this from Lilly.

Generally, the first aspect to the lord of the matter, the 7th is the indicator of what the matter becomes, yet other testimonies within the horary horoscope must be weighed!

ZadkielsGhost

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Ivy Goldstein had a chart "will I go to wedding ceremony?" she used 9th house so yeah it is the ceremony not the actual wedding.
Weddings are 7th and 10th house issues *4th house from 7th*

tikana said:

Ivy Goldstein had a chart "will I go to wedding ceremony?" she used 9th house so yeah it is the ceremony not the actual wedding.
Weddings are 7th and 10th house issues *4th house from 7th*

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Is it possible she used the ninth not for the ceremony, but for the idea of traveling to the ceremony?

Kai, i think it was both. I have no bloody clue where is the book atm but I do remember there was something about 3rd house and someone's car breaking down.
9th house is a ceremony. Would i take marriage as 9th? Hell no.
Going to the wedding i'd say it is 5th house issue.

But in that case about:" Will I go to the ceremony ?" then yes the 9th house could be perfect for this, because the ceremony could be held in a church or in a place specificly design for the event, which can be represented by the 9th (house of god).

But in that case the chart wouldn't be reffering to her as the person involved in the marriage, wouldn't be about the marriage at all, she would just be a guest attending an event.

So the 9th would just be there representing a place or event, because its spiritual in nature, not the marriage itself.

If the question was: "Will I go to my nephew's baptism ceremony?", then the chart would be read the same way, because the 9th could represent the church where the ceremony is being held.