Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Horary Astrology

Horary Astrology Ask and answer any horary questions, and discuss theory and technique. Please post a chart of the time, date, and place you asked the question. Please do not ask the same question repeatedly, hoping for a different result: horary works best when you ask the question ONCE and then interpret the chart that results from when the question FIRST came into your mind. Horary forums are ONLY for discussion of horary charts and techniques.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 08-20-2007, 07:55 AM
20questions 20questions is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 13
Utah Miners

Hi all, I'm new here and hope I've posted this in the right thread. For some reason, I've felt really invested in the fate of these miners. I did a horary chart for them yesterday and I thought the chart was really quite significant. I'm only an amatuer in horary but enjoy trying to interpret things. If anyone has ideas, I would be very interested. I'm having a hard time posting the chart so apologies in advance. I'll try and get the chart so it's visible in the message, I know it's annoying trying to discuss something you can't immediately see.

In the meantime, here is the link to the chart: http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi...lD-u1037512966

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:00 AM
20questions 20questions is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 13
Re: Utah Miners

Ok, I think I figured out how to post the chart: astro_w2gw_127_horaryminers_what_happened_hp.20709.24601.gif

edit: err, not sure that worked after all. If anyone has advice about how to post a readable chart it would be appreciated!

Last edited by 20questions; 08-20-2007 at 08:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:04 AM
RayAustin's Avatar
RayAustin RayAustin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,434
Re: Utah Miners

hey, yay, i've been waiting for a meaningful chart to decipher...
one thing though, a little more background to the situation ? i'll glance at the chart but background information makes suchhhh a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20questions
Hi all, I'm new here and hope I've posted this in the right thread. For some reason, I've felt really invested in the fate of these miners. I did a horary chart for them yesterday and I thought the chart was really quite significant. I'm only an amatuer in horary but enjoy trying to interpret things. If anyone has ideas, I would be very interested. I'm having a hard time posting the chart so apologies in advance. I'll try and get the chart so it's visible in the message, I know it's annoying trying to discuss something you can't immediately see.

In the meantime, here is the link to the chart: http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi...lD-u1037512966
__________________
Musician / Artist / Astrologer

“Famous are those persons in whose Nativities the Moon receives the light of many Planets.”
—Cardanus.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:08 AM
RayAustin's Avatar
RayAustin RayAustin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,434
Re: Utah Miners

and WOAH, i just had like, an equivative "woah" oujia board moment.. just how right-on the chart is, with you being in H4, house of mines, and the miners significators being in H4 too.. woah.. now i'm realllyyyyy gonna have fun looking at this. i'm all pumped up.
__________________
Musician / Artist / Astrologer

“Famous are those persons in whose Nativities the Moon receives the light of many Planets.”
—Cardanus.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:20 AM
20questions 20questions is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 13
Re: Utah Miners

Eeek, I know. It's great having someone reply so quick because I was really struck by the chart as well. Ugh, I wish I could figure out how to display it in the message though ...as backrgound to the question, there isn't much..I have just been following the tragedy on the news and for some reason have felt particularly upset about it all. I finaly asked a horary question about it last night: I asked: what happened to the Utah miners. Hope that gives a bit of meaningful backrgound. As soon as I figure out how to actually post the chart I'll give some of my own interpretations.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:25 AM
RayAustin's Avatar
RayAustin RayAustin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,434
Re: Utah Miners

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20questions
Eeek, I know. It's great having someone reply so quick because I was really struck by the chart as well. Ugh, I wish I could figure out how to display it in the message though ...as backrgound to the question, there isn't much..I have just been following the tragedy on the news and for some reason have felt particularly upset about it all. I finaly asked a horary question about it last night: I asked: what happened to the Utah miners. Hope that gives a bit of meaningful backrgound. As soon as I figure out how to actually post the chart I'll give some of my own interpretations.
haha, yeah, i'm a night owl.
i'm doing this chart right now, and since i'm so awesome i'll put the chart in this post so people can see.. since i have my own website space. you'll need a website hosting the image for you to show it, but anyway here's the chart:



i just got through studying debilities&dignities today so i should be more accurate about this then i have been in past horaries (if you're studying horary, you'll figure out what that stuff means later if you don't know, that is).

rayA
__________________
Musician / Artist / Astrologer

“Famous are those persons in whose Nativities the Moon receives the light of many Planets.”
—Cardanus.

Last edited by RayAustin; 08-20-2007 at 08:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 08-20-2007, 09:17 AM
20questions 20questions is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 13
Re: Utah Miners

Hey, thanks so much I am really looking forward to your commentary! In the meantime, here are my own thoughts:


Well, the main things in this chart that stand out for me are: 1) Mars in the 1st house of the “physical body” square most of the personal planets which are congested in the 4th house, which rules “mines’ and “mining” and also 2) Neptune in the 10th house of ‘public perception” opposite that conglomeration of personal planets in House 4. I am however uncertain how to interpret this. On one level, the chart could be describing a “physical blow” to the planets in the 4th house. It could mean the miners were literally hit by a “blow” (the mine collapsing on them) and Neptune in the 10th house would describe ‘our’ ( the public’s) uncertainty about their welfare. (I know Neptune isn’t regularly included in horary but in this case it’s so prominent and pertinent that it’s hard to ignore) On the other hand, if you look at the chart visually, it really literally depicts a “cave-in”: the miners are ‘cut-off’ from above. Mars cuts communication off from below to above. In this case, it’s more complicated. I can’t remember but am I right in thinking Neptune has to do with asphyxiation?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 08-20-2007, 09:22 AM
20questions 20questions is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 13
Re: Utah Miners

Anyway, I'm heading off to bed and I look forward to reading replies tomorrow. Thanks again for hosting the chart . It will be interesting to see people's various interpretations of this chart!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 08-20-2007, 12:08 PM
RayAustin's Avatar
RayAustin RayAustin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,434
Re: Utah Miners

My Interpretation:
after a whole bunch load of notes, this is my take.
i kind of state the obvious sometimes, but i'm just describing the chart, and I'm probably going all over the place but I like to look at every *little* thing. it's late so some things might be a little weird.

querent = mercury
quesited (miners) = Sun, ruler of H4 and/or saturn, natural ruler of mines&miners.

Being Mercury in H4, it is apparent that you have a deep interest in the situation, and it is my suspicion that you might be connected to these people somehow, maybe it is a cousin on your father's side or some other little known relative could be one of the miners, and maybe it effects you on a subconscious level in particular, that's just a suspicion of mine.

Your significator is squaring mars, the ruler of the miner's radical 9th (I'm using it in this horary as a search for truth), and the ruler of your 12th (In this aspect I'm using it as "secrets"), I think this is emulating into the chart that you're frustrated at not knowing what actually happened.

The ruler of your thoughts is the moon & of whom is also your ruler of emotions, in the miner's radical third, so I see this as the chart showing you possibly of thinking of the rumors surrounding the situation or thinking about and being sympathetic to their family members.

The H4 planets:
I'm using venus to symbolise secrets (its your h12 intercept ruler) & sorrow as you see them, and also as the miner's radical third, which in this case I am using her as the news, combining this into "disdainful talk surrounding the incident", i.e.; the news.

Saturn is also here, it is in detriment in Leo, he is the ruler of your 8th house (hidden matters)... and the miner's radical sixth (illness). It is conjuncts the sun, which I'm just going to attribute to as your anguish for the miner's situation. He is squaring mars notably, the cusp ruler of your h12.

The Miner's H8 house of death (radical 11th):
So, the ruler of this by cusp is jupiter, who is powerfully dignified in sagittarius by house and triplicity and a hair away from term, and is in the miner's H4, it suggests the mine as cause of death, burying underneath earth perhaps. Uranus is positioned within their H8, suggesting that this was abrupt, unexpected. It would definitely seem so as jupiter is applying to uranus by square, and opposing mars--if we use mars as the intercept ruler of the miner's house of death that makes sense, maybe this is saying that the accident happened abruptly and quickly, or that some actually as well died quickly. If we used aries as intercept sign ruler of their h8, maybe fire was involved too, or with pisces, drowning.. in the most practical sense i.e. lack of air?

Now I'm trying to analyze why mars (ruler of their house of death) is in their H10 and your H1. For your H1 I'm just going to see this as your interest in their cause of death. For why it's in their h10 I'm actually going to pay attention to it because it's the cosign of their h10 so it is powerfully dignified, an association perhaps with death and their career (i.e. a risky occupation, death on the job). Mars is square saturn and I'm kinda scratching my head what the hell that could mean ? I am just going to say it's increasing the friction between it and saturn. I think mars is accidentally dignified by being within orb of the ascendant, adding to it's hostility.

If we look at the aspect table, we can see many of the significators are squaring eachother, opposing uranus & it just looks like they were doomed.

Judgment:
While on the job, there was most likely an explosion of some sort followed by a cave in, or vice versa ( this by use of pisces & aries influencing the the radical H8). With uranus in H8, it was certainly unexpected/sudden, and there was irresponsibility involved. I think the chart points to something violent and rapid. With the death ruler in the quesited H10 as I've said above it was probably a known risk/fear of the job that actually happened, such as the possibility of a particular something exploding if mishandled. Now that I think about it, with Mars squaring Uranus in the h8, I think irresponsibility perhaps by the company owning the mine or its workers definitely was a factor.

Judging the state of radical 4th (their h1), I don't think there will be any survivors, there is lack of "vitality".
The chart suggests that "truth" will not be found in the situation somehow, partly, maybe because the witnesses themselves are dead. The chart also suggests illusions of the truth maybe by media, perhaps even a cover up.. there certainly is a "secrets" theme going on.

I was re-looking at Saturn, which could also be represented by their wives, Jupiter their family members--I decided to use mercury as the company the miners were working for, there might be lawyers involved and suing (mercury is conjunct saturn) against the company, if we use radical h2 as a significator for the mining company's money, it is in the 3rd house (house of the miner's kindred), and joying there, so they might get money from the company. The moon is technically in fall, but she is also being 'received' by mars (the cause of death) which lessens that. perhaps this means the actual cause of death will allow them to get money.

I also think that somehow you might be affected like I said when I first started, and that's why I included you in the chart besides being the querent of course. It might be because you are related to the victims or simply because you have sympathy/empathy for the families of the miners.

One thing I don't get though is jupiter, a benefic, being dignified, that would at first be a good thing but it's opposing mars (death) and squaring uranus (accident). maybe there was something lucky that happened so far, or luck transformed into 'unluckiness'?

I dunno, I've put alot out there. LOL.
well, this is the picture the chart is painting to me.
__________________
Musician / Artist / Astrologer

“Famous are those persons in whose Nativities the Moon receives the light of many Planets.”
—Cardanus.

Last edited by RayAustin; 08-20-2007 at 12:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 08-20-2007, 12:19 PM
RayAustin's Avatar
RayAustin RayAustin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,434
Re: Utah Miners

Quote:
HUNTINGTON, Utah | Six coal miners caught in a cave-in probably will not emerge alive and may forever be entombed in the still-quivering mountain, officials conceded Sunday.Relatives responded by accusing federal officials and the mine’s owners of quitting on the rescue effort and leaving the men for dead.
“We feel that they’ve given up and that they are just waiting for the six miners to expire,” said Sonny Olsen, a spokesman for the families, said as about 70 relatives of the trapped miners stood behind him.
Air readings from a fourth hole drilled more than 1,500 feet into the mountainside found insufficient oxygen to support life, and the latest efforts to signal the men were again met by silence.
“It’s likely these miners may not be found,” said Rob Moore, vice president of Murray Energy Corp., co-owner of the Crandall Canyon Mine, abandoning the unflinching optimism.
The families of the missing miners demanded that rescuers immediately begin drilling a 30-inch hole into which a rescue capsule could be lowered.
“We are here at the mercies of the officials in charge and their so-called experts. Precious time is being squandered here, and we do not have time to spare,” Olsen said.
There has been little evidence that the six miners survived the initial Aug. 6 collapse. Workers have gained limited access through four boreholes into which video cameras and microphones were lowered. Rescuers banged on a drill bit and set off explosives Saturday, hoping to elicit a response, but heard none.
Engineering experts from around the nation gathered at the mine Sunday to try to figure out a safe way of reaching the missing men. Underground tunneling has been halted since three rescuers were killed.
my interp. is very in line with that, I can really see a lawsuit brewing.
__________________
Musician / Artist / Astrologer

“Famous are those persons in whose Nativities the Moon receives the light of many Planets.”
—Cardanus.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Unread 08-20-2007, 06:20 PM
starlink's Avatar
starlink starlink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: I live in peace
Posts: 6,350
Re: Utah Miners

Hi 20! Your question was: what happened to the miners. We still dont know exactly what happened to them, if they are indeed dead and if so, how they died. Could be asfixiation, could be the roof came down. We dont know yet. And that is what the chart also says with a 2° Ascendant. This means: it is still too early to know what exactly happened to them.
If you wânted to know if they died, you probably should have phrased your question differently, like: are the miners dead? than you can look for a yes or no answer. This question leaves a lot open. It can mean "are they dead?" it can also mean "what happened down there?". And I think that your question was understood as such, hence the "too early Ascendant".
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Unread 08-20-2007, 06:49 PM
RayAustin's Avatar
RayAustin RayAustin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,434
Re: Utah Miners

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlink
Hi 20! Your question was: what happened to the miners. We still dont know exactly what happened to them, if they are indeed dead and if so, how they died. Could be asfixiation, could be the roof came down. We dont know yet. And that is what the chart also says with a 2° Ascendant. This means: it is still too early to know what exactly happened to them.
If you wânted to know if they died, you probably should have phrased your question differently, like: are the miners dead? than you can look for a yes or no answer. This question leaves a lot open. It can mean "are they dead?" it can also mean "what happened down there?". And I think that your question was understood as such, hence the "too early Ascendant".
I disaggree about 'not knowing what happened', the final result I aggree may be unknown by the presence of the early ascendant, but the chart says to me a lot about "what actually happened" and "what's happening now", as well as "what can be expected to happen", it's picture perfect to me.

20's question was general, and that's why they got a general picture back to them which is what they wanted--thus the question was correct in prose. He wanted to know the "fate", not just if they were dead or not--they wanted to know the surrounding circumstances. And also by the fact that they were upset, to me it's apparent s/he wanted to know why they were being affected by it so much in their mood.

With the scene, the chart suggests death in particular for the miners (with a glimmer of hope), unexpected tragedy, irresponsibility possibly, "how" it happened & the miner's family suing against the company, as well as a possibility that 20 might be related to them distantly, either that or sympathetic/empathetic emotional concern/attachment. I'm not using anything that isn't suggested by the chart.

rayA
__________________
Musician / Artist / Astrologer

“Famous are those persons in whose Nativities the Moon receives the light of many Planets.”
—Cardanus.

Last edited by RayAustin; 08-20-2007 at 06:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread 08-20-2007, 07:26 PM
archergirl archergirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A green and pleasant land.
Posts: 2,748
Re: Utah Miners

Ra - d,

Very good effort at reading the chart. However, you have given the 7th to the miners, when in fact in a question like this where there is no personal involvement (I am assuming; just topical interest), you can go ahead and give the subject of the question to the 1st house.

Quote:
Being Mercury in H4, it is apparent that you have a deep interest in the situation, and it is my suspicion that you might be connected to these people somehow, maybe it is a cousin on your father's side or some other little known relative could be one of the miners, and maybe it effects you on a subconscious level in particular, that's just a suspicion of mine.
You are using natal astrology methods in horary, which is a no-no, Ra. Horary is very literal in its interpretations. See:

Mercury, as ruler of the 1st, appropriately represents 'multiples' (Mercury rules 'bunches' of things, such as keys, as well). In this case, it is a 'multiple' of miners. They are 'buried' in the 4th house of the grave, in a late degree, and leaving combustion. Their fate will soon come to light as they leave the Sun's beams and move into the exalted status of Virgo.

I do not think they are alive; Jupiter, ruler of the 8th of death, is opposed by an applying Mars; the Sun, ruler of 'the end of the matter' is in his own house and obscures everything else. The ruler of the 6th of the miners' collective health is Venus, and she is in an abject state, having just conjuncted the Sun (the End), and being retrograde. She is retrograde for a long time to come.

You are correct that Mars represents ruptures, and acts of suddenness; it separates from a square to Saturn, and is in the sign of the miners. My guess is that they were crushed by the falling rocks, as Mercury's last aspect was a conjunction to Saturn, which rules stone, walls, and solid structures as well as bones, teeth, and the 'structures' of the body. Because the Mars/Saturn square happened awhile back, the 'fault' in the mine may have already existed.

However, ALL of you have ignored the fact that the Moon is void of course in this chart. The Moon is THE planet to watch, in any horary. I really don't understand why this fundamental is so broadly disregarded by students.

As Starlink, an astrologer of very good skills has reminded you, the ascendant is in early degrees. This doesn't mean that the chart can't be read, only that you do not have all the information available to you to make a valid judgement. This, combined with the VOC moon, is a strong caution not to judge this chart as the final answer, or to count your chickens before they've hatched.

We've come to basically the same conclusion by different means.

Quote:
20's question was general, and that's why they got a general picture back to them which is what they wanted--thus the question was correct in prose. He wanted to know the "fate", not just if they were dead or not--they wanted to know the surrounding circumstances.
This isn't necessarily so, and I'm with Starlink on the fogginess of the question. To get a really good horary answer, you need a really good horary question, and the question has to be understood by the astrologer reading the chart. Being that there are several astrologers on here who all have different interpretations of what the question *actually was asking*, it's beneficial to ask for clarification from the querent, instead of all of us making assumptions about the relationship of the querent to the question, and what they were asking. That VOC moon didn't just appear in the chart by accident.

Cheers,
AG

Last edited by archergirl; 08-20-2007 at 07:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread 08-20-2007, 07:28 PM
starlink's Avatar
starlink starlink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: I live in peace
Posts: 6,350
Re: Utah Miners

Yes, you are right Ra, I also understood it that way. I was just puzzled by that early Ascendant and wondered why (and what about the question was too early). It is very clear, also from how you interpreted the chart, what happened to the poor guys.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Unread 08-20-2007, 07:40 PM
RayAustin's Avatar
RayAustin RayAustin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,434
Re: Utah Miners

Quote:
Originally Posted by archergirl
Ra - d,

Very good effort at reading the chart. However, you have given the 7th to the miners, when in fact in a question like this where there is no personal involvement (I am assuming; just topical interest), you can go ahead and give the subject of the question to the 1st house.



You are using natal astrology methods in horary, which is a no-no, Ra. Horary is very literal in its interpretations.

I didn't use the 7th, actually, I used the fourth. I attached personal involvement because 20 said they were 'deeply invested' in the fate of the miners, I thought about using the chart all just for the miners but decided against it. Whatever the case, the picture is still similar enough actually.

As for what you mean by natal methods, what methods are you speaking of that I'm using ?


Quote:
See:

Mercury, as ruler of the 1st, appropriately represents 'multiples' (Mercury rules 'bunches' of things, such as keys, as well). In this case, it is a 'multiple' of miners. They are 'buried' in the 4th house of the grave, in a late degree, and leaving combustion. Their fate will soon come to light as they leave the Sun's beams and move into the exalted status of Virgo.
interesting about the 'multiples' thing, and the exaltation thing which I didn't notice. it's always good to have another pair of eyes.

Quote:
I do not think they are alive; Jupiter, ruler of the 8th of death, is opposed by an applying Mars; the Sun, ruler of 'the end of the matter' is in his own house and obscures everything else. The ruler of the 6th of the miners' collective health is Venus, and she is in an abject state, having just conjuncted the Sun (the End), and being retrograde. She is retrograde for a long time to come.

You are correct that Mars represents ruptures, and acts of suddenness; it separates from a square to Saturn, and is in the sign of the miners. My guess is that they were crushed by the falling rocks, as Mercury's last aspect was a conjunction to Saturn, which rules stone, walls, and solid structures as well as bones, teeth, and the 'structures' of the body. Because the Mars/Saturn square happened awhile back, the 'fault' in the mine may have already existed.
yes.. 'fault that already existed', applies to my theory that the cause may have been a risk that the miners and/or company were already aware of, if that's what you mean.

Quote:
However, ALL of you have ignored the fact that the Moon is void of course in this chart. The Moon is THE planet to watch, in any horary. I really don't understand why this fundamental is so broadly disregarded by students.
haha yeah, as for what that could actually mean in this situation i'm not so sure.

Quote:
As Starlink, an astrologer of very good skills has reminded you, the ascendant is in early degrees. This doesn't mean that the chart can't be read, only that you do not have all the information available to you to make a valid judgement. This, combined with the VOC moon, is a strong caution not to judge this chart as the final answer, or to count your chickens before they've hatched.

Cheers,
AG
yeah, I know, I overlooked that, I don't think that this is the end result *at all*, I *aggree* that the final result is not known at this time.

rayA
__________________
Musician / Artist / Astrologer

“Famous are those persons in whose Nativities the Moon receives the light of many Planets.”
—Cardanus.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread 08-20-2007, 07:41 PM
starlink's Avatar
starlink starlink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: I live in peace
Posts: 6,350
Re: Utah Miners

Hi AG! Nice to come forward! That Moon is also in the Via Combusta (between 15 Libra and 15 Scorpio) and I actually took the inconjuct to Mars as a last aspect, but the whole thing is totally weak.Neptune being in the 10th and so powerfully opposing that 4th house Stellium ,I feel, can be counted in maybe and counting towards Moon's last square? Confusion all over the place!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 08-20-2007, 07:47 PM
RayAustin's Avatar
RayAustin RayAustin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,434
Re: Utah Miners

oh .. In addition, decided to use radical houses because I was curious as to what personal attachment if any 20 might have to this situation & these people, I thought it fascinating how they were concerned and how they may be unknowingly connected... And I dug into the chart for the subtle suggestions.

Just an explanation so it doesn't seem like I'm just using 'wack methods'.
__________________
Musician / Artist / Astrologer

“Famous are those persons in whose Nativities the Moon receives the light of many Planets.”
—Cardanus.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread 08-20-2007, 07:48 PM
archergirl archergirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A green and pleasant land.
Posts: 2,748
Question Re: Utah Miners

Quote:
I didn't use the 7th, actually, I used the fourth. I attached personal involvement because 20 said they were 'deeply invested' in the fate of the miners,
Ah. I still wouldn't use the 4th, or anything other than the 1st for this question, unless 20questions had specifically asked about a miner who happened to be his/her father. Some people are invested in questions about whether Manchester United will beat Chelsea in the playoffs. It doesn't change the significators!

Quote:
As for what you mean by natal methods, what methods are you speaking of that I'm using ?
Well, using the 4th to represent 'deep interests of the querent', etc. That really is a natal methodology, and doesn't apply in this general of a question. The question was, 'What is the fate of the miners?' so all you are looking at is the state of the miners, not the state of mind of the person asking the question, what their psychological state is, whether they've been pondering it long and deeply, etc. It just doesn't apply! UNLESS, again, 20questions had a vested interest in the question due to one of the miners being a relative, etc., in which case you would change the reading entirely.

Quote:
haha yeah, as for what that could actually mean in this situation i'm not so sure.
A void of course Moon is a warning that 'nothing will come of the matter'; in the case of this question, it most likely means that all of our extrapolating is an exercise in futility.

Cheers,
AG
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread 08-20-2007, 07:52 PM
archergirl archergirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A green and pleasant land.
Posts: 2,748
Re: Utah Miners

Hi Starlink,

Inconjuncts are not used in horary; some people like to use them, but it's not clear to me why they'd want to, since inconjuncts are tricky enough in a natal chart. The traditional aspects: conjunction, sextile, trine, square, and opposition, tell us everything we'd ever need to know in a chart, IMO.

You know I don't use the outer planets much, but yes, Neptune is quite prominent, and represents the 'outer world' of the vast public. Confusion, most definitely! It may be that the people in charge of the mine also don't have a clear idea of what happened.

Best,
AG
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:03 PM
RayAustin's Avatar
RayAustin RayAustin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,434
Re: Utah Miners

Quote:
Well, using the 4th to represent 'deep interests of the querent', etc. That really is a natal methodology, and doesn't apply in this general of a question. The question was, 'What is the fate of the miners?' so all you are looking at is the state of the miners, not the state of mind of the person asking the question, what their psychological state is, whether they've been pondering it long and deeply, etc. It just doesn't apply! UNLESS, again, 20questions had a vested interest in the question due to one of the miners being a relative, etc., in which case you would change the reading entirely.
Yes you have a point there, I don't like saying irrelevant obvious things too much (like "they're deeply interested in the situation"), but taking it from the querent's point of view in times where it may not apparently be at first does show a lot of insightful information into the querent's demeanor/attitudes, possibility of involvement which I find fascinating. Is this breaking a law of some sort? Unless William Lilly absolutely advises against it, I may continue to do this when I feel a 'prompt' to.

I do understand your point, which is in short that the chart isn't always about the *querent*. Yes I know. But if I wanna look, I'm gonna look.
__________________
Musician / Artist / Astrologer

“Famous are those persons in whose Nativities the Moon receives the light of many Planets.”
—Cardanus.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:10 PM
archergirl archergirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A green and pleasant land.
Posts: 2,748
Re: Utah Miners

Oh, I'm not arguing against using psychological astrology in a horary chart, by any means. I use it frequently...when it is relevant to the question. To quote Freud: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Perhaps the confusion lies in the fact that 20questions said they were interested in this event, but that the chart actually has nothing to do with 20questions. The first challenge in these sorts of charts, I find, is who signifies what, and from which houses, and figuring that out comes with long practice. Even then, sometimes very experienced astrologers disagree!

AG
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:11 PM
starlink's Avatar
starlink starlink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: I live in peace
Posts: 6,350
Re: Utah Miners

I know, I know AG!! No inconjuncts, but stubborn me, after having read Anthony Louis's book who does use inconjuncts, I am always tempted. Maybe because I have studied the inconjunct in-depth in natal astrology because I just HAD to know what it meant in my natal chart (Moon inconj. Uranus and Mars and Mars ruler of my Ascendant). I ordered this book about problem solving in horary today,(Marc Edmund Jones) cant wait to receive it!! I am also considering the book" hooked on Horary, Volume III" from Joan McEvers, as I am a horary junky by now, !!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:14 PM
archergirl archergirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A green and pleasant land.
Posts: 2,748
Re: Utah Miners

Ah, Starlink,

Draco said something funny about most horary astrologers being grim Saturn types, and this describes me perfectly! I love my traditional methods. (I'm not closed to modern stuff, necessarily, but I need to see *proof* that it works first! ).

AG
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:23 PM
RayAustin's Avatar
RayAustin RayAustin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,434
Re: Utah Miners

Quote:
Originally Posted by archergirl
To quote Freud: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

AG
So true--lol.. I'll have to keep that in mind so I don't "draw in dots to connect".


Quote:
Originally Posted by archergirl
A void of course Moon is a warning that 'nothing will come of the matter'; in the case of this question, it most likely means that all of our extrapolating is an exercise in futility.
but why is it futile? that's what I like to know. mars is the moon's dispositor, isn't he ? that has some effect doesn't it ? I don't think it overrides the voc or anything.. but perhaps there is some subtle meaning.

**

also when I used the radical houses, making the quesited a different party I was able to arrive at signs indicating a lawsuit possibly against the mining company by the family, which as I read in an article today is most likely going to go down in the near future. I perceived this when I used the radical houses. maybe this is me "drawing in dots" again, but in a way that the chart supports and alludes to.
__________________
Musician / Artist / Astrologer

“Famous are those persons in whose Nativities the Moon receives the light of many Planets.”
—Cardanus.

Last edited by RayAustin; 08-20-2007 at 08:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Unread 08-20-2007, 08:33 PM
archergirl archergirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A green and pleasant land.
Posts: 2,748
Re: Utah Miners

Hi Ra-d,

In many charts you can use both the radix AND turned houses; this is used frequently in questions pertaining to death and illness, actually. So, for example, you can look at the turned houses of death for whoever the subject of the chart is (my grandmother, for example, the radix 7th, so the 4th and 8th houses from the 7th), and then look at the significators for the 4th and 8th in the radix chart, and any applications. I'm not sure why this works, but it does. So I'm sure you're right about the lawsuit. The whole episode is a catastrophe; I only pray that the miners, if they indeed did die (which seems highly likely), died quickly. A long slow death in the dark is not my idea of 'a good death'.


Quote:
mars is the moon's dispositor, isn't he ? that has some effect doesn't it ? I don't think it overrides the voc or anything.. but perhaps there is some subtle meaning.
Yes, I'm sure you're right. But for whatever reason, this chart (or perhaps the question itself) is flawed; with the Moon being in Via Combusta as Starlink pointed out, the situation itself is very unstable. The Moon is in VERY bad shape: in fall, VOC, in a cadent house, disposed by a malefic; this should be taken as a general warning about the chart itself. Read at our peril, I suppose.

AG
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
miners, utah

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.