Orbs for inconjuncts

I've been delving into my chart to try and understand issues I have in relationships and with boundaries and selfesteem. In my chart, Venus squares Mars and my moon and inconjuncts Neptune and Uranus. However... I feel as if my Venus also inconjuncts Pluto even though they're 4 degrees apart. I've read about this aspect and the issues that can arise. I can recognize very clearly Plutonian issues coming to play in relationships and even friendships for me. Most often people say the orbs for inconjuncts are strictly 2 degrees or maybe 3, but never 4. Is it possible I still have that inconjunct energy even at 4 degrees?



If not, I'll have to dig in more and figure out why Plutonian issues come into play for me if my Venus and Pluto don't hard aspect each other



I'll link my chart for reference

If I need to give more info as to why I believe Pluto plays a part in relationship problems, I'll definitely elaborate when I have time. It's not pretty...Problems with controlling behavior, manipulation, obsession, not being able to let go of people at the beginning of a breakup, either not being invested at all, or being too invested. And I know the core problem is selfesteem and needing to build boundaries

I'm more inclined to go easy with orbs and believe 4 degrees is acceptable, but I may be wrong and if I am, there's more to explore in tackling my relationship habits, so this is important

And if they do inconjunct, I have a yod which would be another aspect of my chart I need to pay attention to

Hi. That inconjunct looks too wide to me at 4.5 degrees. In fact the aspects to Pluto from the Sun, Mars and Jupiter all look very wide to me. So I wouldn't say Pluto is strongly aspected in this chart.

[Need to look at chart again]

It looks like Venus is closely sedquiquadrate your Chiron/Pluto midpoint. You could look out for transits to this configuration to see what you experience. (Any time a significant transiting body makes a conjunction, opposition, square, semisquare or sesquiquadrate to Venus.)

Best wishes

Miquar

Indeed , I wouldn't go beyond 2,3 for inconjunct. After all it's a minor aspect for that reason, and the thighter the orb the better.
In my opinion, an inconjunct can still be felt at an orb of 3 for example, just not as strong as an exact aspect.

miquar said:

Hi. That inconjunct looks too wide to me at 4.5 degrees. In fact the aspects to Pluto from the Sun, Mars and Jupiter all look very wide to me. So I wouldn't say Pluto is strongly aspected in this chart.

[Need to look at chart again]

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Oh no, I definitely feel Plutonian energy very heavily. Plus mine's retrograde which will make it more intense. My life has revolved around Plutonian issues for sure. I know that for a fact. It hasn't always been a good thing either

And I do know that I have problems in relationships that stem from Pluto partially too. So I'm trying to figure out why if I don't have the inconjunct

ardentika said:

Indeed , I wouldn't go beyond 2,3 for inconjunct. After all it's a minor aspect for that reason, and the thighter the orb the better.
In my opinion, an inconjunct can still be felt at an orb of 3 for example, just not as strong as an exact aspect.

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Do you think it's at all possible for it to be felt at 4 degrees? Even if it's more subtle? And I've done a lot of reading about inconjuncts. Some people don't consider them minor aspects at all and I could see why because it is a hard aspect

If it's not the inconjunct, do you have any thoughts as to why I may deal with Plutonian themes in romance and friendships? Only thing I can think is that Pluto is in my 3rd house ruled by Mercury which is my chart ruler and the ruler of my moon and Mars which square my Venus. That and Aries hits my 8th house and connects to my first house mars

What do you think?

The thing is, I've done research on that particular inconjunct and I relate to it very heavily

Also, people have varying opinions on whether the inconjunct is actually a minor aspect. Some people consider 4 to be close enough to aspect. I really just can't figure out why I relate so heavily to the aspect if I don't have it

miquar said:

It looks like Venus is closely sedquiquadrate your Chiron/Pluto midpoint. You could look out for transits to this configuration to see what you experience. (Any time a significant transiting body makes a conjunction, opposition, square, semisquare or sesquiquadrate to Venus.)

Best wishes

Miquar

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What would be the possible effects of that aspect to my Chiron-Pluto midpoint?

Idk, I personally think there should be more leeway for orbs. Afterall, it's not like the energy suddenly shuts off at a certain degree. It just runs on a spectrum. And I'm wondering how the orb allowances were decided too

Maybe it'd help if I elaborated on how exactly I experience Pluto's influence in relationships, but I'll have to do that tomorrow. I do know Pluto plays a large role in my life and in relationships for me. I don't think orbs are set in stone either as it wouldn't make sense to me they are and I really do wonder who established orb limitations in astrology. We're dealing with something that you can't truly quantify so I don't see why 4 degrees would be too wide. Imo I have the inconjunct, but maybe there are other reasons I have Plutonian issues in relationships

Actually, I'm really starting to think orbs don't matter as much as we think they do. And I know there are people who have studied astrology for years and eventually come to the same conclusion. Orbs are based around math, but the energy of astronomical bodies can't be quantified. The relationships between planets isn't mathematics, it's something intangible so applying strict mathematics to it seems like it may be misleading or cheating us out of greater depth of understanding how the energies of the planets play with each other

And the inconjunct in particular is a pretty intense aspect. It's a hard aspect and people debate whether it actually is a minor aspect. Even with oppositions, it's easier to reconcile the energies. But disjuncted planets don't speak the same language at all. People who recognize i conjuncts as major aspects or more than just minor accept wider orbs, even up to 5 as I've seen now

Hmmm, I guess I've answered my own question. I do have the inconjunct, but there may be other angles through which to contemplate the role Pluto plays in my relationships

After some research, I learned that use of orbs is really more of a recent development in astrology and ancient astrologers didn't use them

But really, I just don't think it's necessary to be strict with orbs but to look at things by case. Like it's possible that even a wide aspect may be felt strongly if other influences in the chart affect it

Anyway. I apologize for making this thread asking a question and then answering it myself. I tend to do that since writing things out helps me explore and find abswers, but I'm still curious if others have anything else to add or other angles for me to look at this

I'm actually finding a lot more sources now that note 0-5 degrees for the inconjunct and that's because it's not agreed upon that it is a minor aspect

This would also mean I have a yod and I really want to explore how the configurations plays especially since my Venus is at the apex and it forms many hard aspects

Hi. A planet doesn't have to be well aspected to be strong. Chiron and Pluto have a lot in common, and so the midpoint contact mentioned above could go a long way to accounting for your Scorpio relationship issues.

Sometimes a yod has some wide orbs but the planet at the apex is opposite the midpoint of the sextiling planets. In these cases the midpoint contact can pull the configuration together. But this doesn't apply in your case.

Best wishes

Miquar

miquar said:

Hi. A planet doesn't have to be well aspected to be strong. Chiron and Pluto have a lot in common, and so the midpoint contact mentioned above could go a long way to accounting for your Scorpio relationship issues.

Sometimes a yod has some wide orbs but the planet at the apex is opposite the midpoint of the sextiling planets. In these cases the midpoint contact can pull the configuration together. But this doesn't apply in your case.

Best wishes

Miquar

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I wonder how how would go about about healing issues involving midpoint contacts....At least with the inconjunt I have a means of understanding what to heal. In the case of the inconjunct, the core issue is selfesteem

Here is why I believe I have the inconjunct between Venus and Pluto...


I have this inability to know what is too much or what is too little to give to others. I don't have an innate sense of my own needs being rational or worthwhile while at the same time I believe the other person has the all the right in the world to say what they need and have me provide it to them. In other words, in relationships, I'm not in touch with my true authentic power. A part of me feels like I 'need' the other person and I just can't let them go no matter how toxic the relationship is. I have tendencies to get obsessive and paranoid because a part of me is looking for my sense of power, but i just don't have it. And there's also a lot of selfesteem in there too. I don't have a sense of my own value or worth so I expect others will disrespect me


And at the same time, I will vacillate between being a pushover, and screaming out demanding my power in ways that are just destructive like manipulating the other person, getting angry and saying truly nasty things, confronting them on my paranoid suspicions of their true intentions, manipulating them when I sense things are at the end. And no matter how bad things get, I have a hard time letting them go like it's something that would devastate me. I have trust issues and as I noted, I have this on/off switch. At first, I'm not at all invested in people, but at some point, the switch turns on and I become altogether way too invested like I'm giving up all my power to them. I have problems becoming obsessive and overbearing and I think because of my Pluto in the 3rd house, this will come out particularly strongly in words, like I sense that's the only way to gain my power back that I've surrendered to them. They're leaving me and it feels like complete betrayal so I feel like I have a right to take out all the verbal guns and ammo. I'm very much about trust in relationships, but when I get to this point, I may use peoples' weaknesses against them and I know while I'm doing this that I'm ruining everything in a way that it will never be able to be fixed, but I somehow can't stop myself. I just feel so intensely betrayed and devastated by the thought of losing them even when I know deep down the relationship was never right


When I'm in a relationship, I never feel secure. There's always paranoid thoughts going on and I'm always feeling these intense emotions just beneath the surface of me waiting to jump out. My trust issues... I definitely have huge selfesteem issues too. I don't see myself as good enough so I don't trust others not to betray me or leave me. I may become invested in people when they aren't as invested in me or because I'm so all or nothing, I become invested and in my mind there are all these strings attached that the other person never asked for and these strings are only there to help me feel secure in the relationship. These issues can come out in friendships too, sadly. So when it seems to me that they aren't acting by those strings that have given me at least a little bit of security, I start lashing out. And like I said, I don't know how to get my needs met, I don't feel like I'm important enough that my needs should be met, so all throughout the relationship, I'm frustrated and constantly giving up my power to the other person because they know how to demand their needs get met. And when I do try to reach out and get my needs met, I feel almost ashamed or I feel like it might make them leave me. And I have this tendency to get myself into relationships where my needs will never be met anyway because I'm not in touch with my own power and value


Because I don't feel an innate sense of value, a part of me is searching for value through other people which is why I think I become so invested. But there's a constant power struggle in my own mind. I know I've given up my power to the other person, but I'm constantly frustrated trying to find ways to reclaim my power in ways that just don't work and make the relationship toxic. I will tend to give too much to others and then regret having given anything at all because I do need to feel my sense of power, but I've realized I've given it up

Lack of self worth has also led me to feel that I have to be attractive and sexy to have value

So I really do feel there's a disjunct between my Venus and Pluto and it's very intense for me, but it's something I'm aware of and have been working on

Personally, I suspect the inconjunct is more than just a minor aspect in which case the orbs would be larger, but then I still don't feel orbs should be strict anyway because that makes little sense to me in something as esoteric as astrology

Hi. Just to be clear, astrologers don't tend to look at inconjuncts between a factor and the midpoint of two other factors. They tend to use aspects based on dividing the circle by powers of 2 (CJN, OPP, SQR, SSQ, SES, etc.).

I've not come across the notion that the inconjunct has to do with self-esteem. The meaning of an aspect is derived from the quality of the number from which it is derived. The inconjunct is five twelfths of the circle and so when two factors form an inconjunct aspect they work together in a way which somehow expresses the quality of twelve-ness.

I'm not sure if its advisable to try to work out different ways of working with different types of significator. We can simply use astrology to draw our attention to the fears that drive us, and then observe the futility of being driven in this way, regardless of what the significator is and what kind of fear it is expressed as.

Venus=Chiron/Pluto suggests that the ability to create and experience beauty and worth (including in oneself) may be affected by a sense of alienation and an awareness of the potential for disempowerment and unjust cruelty. It isn't possible to use the Venus function satisfactorily in a superficial way, because the individual's efforts will be frustrated by Chiron and Pluto. Chiron and Pluto represent functions which don't give the ego-self any peace - in order to find fulfilment in Venus matters, the individual must stop thinking in terms of 'my worth', 'my creativity', 'my beauty' or 'my resources' etc., and just allow the Venus function to do its thing. Because the Chiron Pluto influence remains, this allowing will involve challenging the superficiality of others' use of this function - perhaps through provocative art, relating to others in a transformative manner, challenging notions of ownership and the indulgence of greed, etc.

Best wishes

Miquar

Hi. Our posts crossed. I would say that the things you talk about are more to do with close VE=CH/PL than the very wide VE QNX PL. (QNX being the standard abbreviation for quincunx, which is another name for the inconjunct.)

miquar said:

I've not come across the notion that the inconjunct has to do with self-esteem.

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I mean that in regards to the specific planets of Pluto and Venus. The source of the problem between that inconjunct is self worth and self esteem ala Venus

miquar said:

Venus=Chiron/Pluto suggests that the ability to create and experience beauty and worth (including in oneself) may be affected by a sense of alienation and an awareness of the potential for disempowerment and unjust cruelty. It isn't possible to use the Venus function satisfactorily in a superficial way, because the individual's efforts will be frustrated by Chiron and Pluto. Chiron and Pluto represent functions which don't give the ego-self any peace - in order to find fulfilment in Venus matters, the individual must stop thinking in terms of 'my worth', 'my creativity', 'my beauty' or 'my resources' etc., and just allow the Venus function to do its thing. Because the Chiron Pluto influence remains, this allowing will involve challenging the superficiality of others' use of this function - perhaps through provocative art, relating to others in a transformative manner, challenging notions of ownership and the indulgence of greed, etc.

Best wishes

Miquar

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Could you elaborate on this and how it could relate to what I wrote about my experiences? I'm gonna be thinking about it. I'm struggling to find where Chiron fits into everything, though