Is Saturn always Trouble?

So Saturn turned direct this morning. I think I've been feeling the slowdown prior to the turn on my ascendant/MC. Lot's of heavy decisions to make. People close to me I feel like I can't trust any more etc.

Saturn just stationed direct at 21 deg Sag to transit my ascendant at 29 deg Sag (that's bad isn't it?), but will also soon be trine my natal sun in early Virgo. Saturn will also soon transit trine my natal jupiter (25 deg Aries), Arent those supposed to be good? BTW Uranus just stationed Rx right there at 29 deg Aries in early August.

Any thoughts? Not sure what to make of all of this. Chart attached.

Virgonian

Hey there,

I will share my experience. Sagittarius is in my second house so Saturn is transiting my second house. I must say I'm experiencing my worst life situation right now. I'm thinking about my values and my personality. Money can also be the problem. You asked about Saturn-Sun aspect and Saturn conjuncts my natal Sun in this period. I don't know how to defend honestly. My family is making me crazy (my natal Saturn is in the fourth house) and I have a feeling that every day is the same and nothing will change. But I must admit I met one person who opened my eyes and is with me to solve this problem. Saturn brings the reward in the end, I haven't received it yet, but I achieved the phase to know it will be ok. You will probably experience a really strong lesson which is not easy to learn. I started to learn astrology and tried to understand my natal chart and my life purpose. Be strong, it will he ok. Good luck!

It's interesting, I'm not feeling the complete disaster that happened when saturn crossed my natal sun in the 9th house, and then my MC in the 10th.

Yes, right now there are some serious choices to be made, both economic and personal. But there is also more unlocked potential career/financial-wise than when Saturn hit the last time, and some positive signs with interest from clients etc.

Feels like there's both weight lifting and confinement at the same time, if that makes sense.

-Virgonian

With Saturn, moreso than with the other planets, he's the stern teacher who wants you to learn his life lessons. Patience, frugality, hard work, perseverance, courage in the face of hardship. These don't seem like much fun, but obviously they are important life lessons to learn.

Suppose you're clothes shopping and see a jacket you really, really like-- but it's awfully expensive and you're tempted to put it on your credit card, knowing you can't pay it off this month.

Neptune says, "You look great in that jacket!"

Jupiter says, "Put it on your credit card, something will turn up."

Saturn says, "Don't charge it if you have no clue as to how you will pay for it. Your bills are already high, and you're paying too much interest on the debt."

You: "Oh, rats."

Saturn: "But see if you can manage to buy it over several months on lay-away."

Because Saturn rules old age, he tends to reward his star students later in life.

Here's my Astro.com chart attached.

Virgonian

Depends. If you ask for it, Saturn will happily support that thought and teach you a little lesson. He'll send in the sirens calling for you in a thousand different voices. If you think heavy, Saturn will supply the lead and make you drop like a ton of bricks. He's simply resonating what you focus on. Especially if you are in the line of fire, or the energetic weather. If you see a thunderstorm approaching, go inside. Same with astrology. You could weather out the energy, hope for the best, and apply some remedy. For example: mediate on Saturnsday. Work with Saturn. (does not mean to focus on him) simply go with what he shows you. But if you fully start to resonate with Saturn, he will bring more of where that came from. It's a fine balance.

In the end though, if Saturn is bothering you, hide in Jupiter. And vice versa, because both can be angel or demon. It's how you work with the energy. Electricity powers our lives, but can also destroy it in a thunderstorm. it's neutral.

Saturn, unless highly dignified (i.e. In domicile, exaltation) is typically the greatest bit of nastiness you will ever have to face. He is better stuffed in cadency in domicile. Saturn in domicile in the tenth NOT retrograde usually promises a chance of being in politics. The malefics are truly exactly what their name represents.

Interestingly enough, the devil -- satan and all that, are represented through Saturn.

So uh...take that for what you will.

Yes, he is that bad. A bad Saturn will cause a ton of havoc if in high accidental dignity like in the 10th or 1st.

D-Rok, I think I get where you're coming from, but this isn't even what some of the traditional astrologers wrote.* Venus and Jupiter might mitigate the influence of Saturn. The Hellenistic astrologers also indicated circumstances whereby Venus and Jupiter could be unfortunate.

Frankly, with Mars opposite Saturn from the 6th to the 12th houses in whole signs, my life should have been one of utter catastrophe according to traditional sources. But actually, despite its ups and downs, my life turned out pretty well (I'm a senior, so I can look back.)

Hellenistic astrology came with a huge degree of fatalism, which they got from the Stoic philosophers and their mythological beliefs in 3 fates. We don't have to think that way today.

*Examples with references provided upon request.

waybread said:

D-Rok, I think I get where you're coming from, but this isn't even what some of the traditional astrologers wrote.* Venus and Jupiter might mitigate the influence of Saturn. The Hellenistic astrologers also indicated circumstances whereby Venus and Jupiter could be unfortunate.

Frankly, with Mars opposite Saturn from the 6th to the 12th houses in whole signs, my life should have been one of utter catastrophe according to traditional sources. But actually, despite its ups and downs, my life turned out pretty well (I'm a senior, so I can look back.)

Hellenistic astrology came with a huge degree of fatalism, which they got from the Stoic philosophers and their mythological beliefs in 3 fates. We don't have to think that way today.

*Examples with references provided upon request.

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Stoic philosophers had a seriously appropriate mentality for respecting things that sucked in life and ways to accept that not everything is perfect and beautiful in the world. I'm curious how you think these are archaic perspectives that should not be considered today. If anything, a good dose of reality is exactly what people need. Turning a cheek and pretending bad things don't exist is a great way to perpetuate the world in which we are currently living in.

If your life didn't turn out so bad with the Malefics in the worst houses in the sky, perhaps it is an option to consider *not* the whole signs as a source for Natal delineation. If it's not accurate to your life perhaps it's time to use a different lens.

Venus and Jupiter *might* mitigate. They *might* be considered unfortunate especially if they are in rough aspect or afflicted. The amount of variables are many; Saturn represents most disgusting, wretched, unfortunate, miserable things nearly 100% of the time because that's what he governs. The benefics are usually good unless in a place where they try to help and fail, or are besieged by harmful sources. To say that evils are not appropriate for this categorization is nothing short of erroneous. Saturn is bad. So is Mars. But Saturn is *The Big Bad*. Sure he can be good MAYBE sometimes, Yet, most of that is determined on the reduction of his nastiness. With Saturn, there is always a price to pay.

Well, Saturn really is a bad planet and is responsible for most bad things that happen to us, but sometimes he’s not all bad and actually quite good even. He is the planet of responsibility, duty and obligations. Such things may not be particularly nice but if you know how to handle them, your life will be a lot easier and happier. Sometimes it’s better to make one step back to leap three steps ahead and that’s where Saturn can help. Instead of becoming a puppet in Saturn’s hands, you can become his master yourself.

There are some circumstances when Saturn is comparatively easy to handle, i.e. it being in sect, overcome by benefic(s), in a cadent place, retreating from an angle, essentially dignified etc. No one says he'll never cause any troubles with those conditions, but they may not be that dreadful and can be helpful in some Saturnian way. It's useful to step aside from benefic-malefic dichotomy sometimes and realize that all planets have different meanings and efficacy which depend upon a lot of factors in each chart individually.

Solar Flare said:

Well, Saturn really is a bad planet and is responsible for most bad things that happen to us, but sometimes he’s not all bad and actually quite good even. He is the planet of responsibility, duty and obligations. Such things may not be particularly nice but if you know how to handle them, your life will be a lot easier and happier. Sometimes it’s better to make one step back to leap three steps ahead and that’s where Saturn can help. Instead of becoming a puppet in Saturn’s hands, you can become his master yourself.

There are some circumstances when Saturn is comparatively easy to handle, i.e. it being in sect, overcome by benefic(s), in a cadent place, retreating from an angle, essentially dignified etc. No one says he'll never cause any troubles with those conditions, but they may not be that dreadful and can be helpful in some Saturnian way. It's useful to step aside from benefic-malefic dichotomy sometimes and realize that all planets have different meanings and efficacy which depend upon a lot of factors in each chart individually.

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Well said. I have it kind of lucky; Saturn is my ascendant ruler and in domicile in the 11th but retrograde. Meh. Intreresting enough he is also represented by my dad, who was a brilliant chemist (as seen from my fourth house triplicity ruler from Gemini). Still, he was pretty restricting, cheap, but very diligent and hard working. Also a farmer after retirement -- if that's not Saturn, nothing is. He is also a great mentor and father to me. Saturn also shows me my friends and how I react to them -- even if Jupiter rules the 11th, he sits in the house of good fortune. I have a few older friends, and some friends can be troublesome. I have few friends but most are decent enough.

Point is, Saturn isn't terrible for me yet. But he does ruin some otherwise good things and he slows stuff down a lot, though I'm not sure if that is him or Rx (probably heightened by being retrograde). His hand will always taint whatever he rules -- and while my argument is in agreement with you, can you imagine Saturn in Cancer or Leo on the 10th? Hmmmm...bad things.

Like I said...put him in the 3rd in Aquarius and make him not Retrograde. There's a good Saturn.

Maybe.

D-Rok-- Do you harbour the belief that modern astrology tries to make things all nicey-nice and happy-happy, but traditional astrology tells the unvarnished truth? I'm not saying you do, but this is a kind of calumny perpetrated by some trads to bolster traditional astrology. It's as though modern astrology has to be caricatured as this naive New Age foil, against which traditional astrology's greater maturity and astuteness can be revealed.

Bah, humbug.

Actually, I goofed majorly on my previous post. I've got Saturn in the 12th in Placidus, with Mars in the 6th; but these move to the angular first and 7th houses in whole signs.
Nonetheless, in Tetrabiblos, an opposition between the two malefics means I'm going to become some kind of utterly depraved pervert while I'm not busy robbing temples.

And that's not counting the fact that I have no essential dignity in my natal chart except of a couple of eensy-teensy ones. My sun is in detriment, Jupiter is in its fall. Unless you use Egyptian terms, then Mercury picks up a little steam. I should have spent my life as a bag-lady in the gutter. But I didn't.

Humbug. That's what it is: humbug!

Looking back some of the worst times in my life were during Pluto squares to the sun and Mars. After I learned to own my Pluto nature, life got a lot better.

Saturn asks something of us. His transits may simply be a time when you shoulder extra responsibilities, or have to figure out how to make that $20 last a bit longer before your next paycheck.

Think of Saturn as the old man in the barren garret who is a stern task-master. If we do not learn his lessons, we know this due to feelings of shame, inadequacy, fear, and bad luck. But if we learn his lessons of hard work, getting by on very little, deferred gratification, and patience, he rewards us.

Have you ever been rock-climbing where you didn't know where your next hand-hold was, yet somehow you made it to the top of the cliff through sheer hard work and resourcefulness? Saturn works like that.

And this is only logical. Normally, if we save money instead of spending it, and train ourselves in methods of fortitude, these habits serve us well.

We don't need Stoicism to recognize genuinely crummy things in life. They're kind of obvious. Rather than feeling you're stuck with "bad luck" for the rest of your life, today many of us believe we have some capacity to improve our lot.

If fatalism were entirely true, any kind of personal initiative or choices would be completely meaningless. No need to hope the doctor has a cure for your illness. You're stuck with it.

Today I respect traditional astrology, and have taught myself a certain amount of it, but its doom-and-gloom pronouncements turned me off from studying it for many years.

D-Rok, I also want to say that you are all of the planets in your horoscope.

Saturn doesn't "ruin otherwise good things." Think of him like your internal auto mechanic who runs a diagnostic safety check on your car. If you've looked after your vehicle, your car normally runs well. If you haven't, you can't blame the mechanic for pointing out the deferred maintenance.

Funny thing about Saturn, if you follow it extremely close, is that he can be real joker.

For example:

I noticed, that each time I wanted to do something at home, doing a hobby, the moment I started it, my neighbor's child would turn on his stereo and blast music. For a long time, I just thought it was innocent children's mischievousness. Then I realized that it only happened in the hour of Saturn, which is personally calculated based upon my natal chart. It's not the same for everyone else. Then I realized that the child was born a Capricorn. So Saturn is actually enticing this kid to make noise, and therefore BLOCK me from doing what I want to do.

Now why would Saturn block me I might hear you ask? Well, then I have to look at my chart and, for example, I see that Venus is squaring my Chiron in Taurus that day, which means no harmony in my home. It's more extreme when Saturn is direct. Saturn is not the cause, but the instrument through which the energy is expressed. It blocks to test. It throws a barrier on the path, and says: what are you going to do about it? hah? are we running and hiding again? are complaining again? or are we going to change ourselves? So the more blockage you experience, the more likely this is your true path and calling. The more resistance, the bigger the reward.

Haha, now that I know it's Saturn, I simply do my hobby in another hour of the day. One that is not influenced by Saturn, and thus he cannot block anymore. So that is how I apply astrology on a daily basis: if it rains, go inside.

Just a super example of choice-centered astrology, fifteen. I'm impressed.

Thanks everyone!

Just signed a client I've been courting for years.

Definitely putting the Jacket on layaway.

-Virgonian

feedbacks to care to share, true-untrue, insightful-useful-prospective,
traits-aptitudes, events, etc etc?

wishing well.

kshantaram said:

saturn past 2.5yrs transit sag 12th opp mars 6th, 8th from moon,
health, employment, foreign travels-fin/expenses under stress-struggle;
sat aspect sun-mer virgo 9th, luck-edu-health-travels-father under stress;

asc lord jup transit libra 10th opp natal jup aries 4th,
good for career, mother, property matters, advisory roles;
jup trine mars gemini 6th supportive of employment matters,
and protective from dangers, property matters, mother, etc.,
mars lord 11th for income-gains too;

asc lord jup transit scorpio 11th opp moon for income-gains-relationship;
gains from research-occult-advisory roles-consultants-elders-teachers etc;
natal rahu scorpio debilated, gains from foreigners, urological toxic issues;

past 1.5yr rahu transit sun-mer-venus virgo 9th,
promoting literay-oratory aptitudes, relationship, foreign travels,
medical/health care management, etc

sat moves to own cap first house for 2.5yrs ahead,
ambitious and hardworking,
sat transit 9th from moon, gradual-slow lift in life,
sat elevated aspect over libra 10th for career;

sat transit first manifesting natal sat 8th, prone to chronic disease to watch;
rahu the node heading towards natal sat 8th for chronic-toxic disease;
jup scorpio trine aspect sat-cancer protective;
sat aspect own cap 2nd, gains from insurance perhaps;

ketu the separative node now transit acq 2nd, square moon,
detachment from family-finances,
pain-injury throat-lower legs-sciatica-teeth etc;

hope this enables pick and adapt as relevant, find useful,
wishing well, jup transit libra-scorpio, share feedbacks,


kshantaram

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