JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Obviously, since moderators ARE able to moderate this site
BUT moderators of this site are totally unable to moderate 'the larger world' you mention
THEN
clearly, this site IS separate regarding moderation of it
Morality of Predicting Death?
- Thread starter Phoenix Venus
- Start date
BUT moderators of this site are totally unable to moderate 'the larger world' you mention
THEN
clearly, this site IS separate regarding moderation of it
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Yet there is no apparent problem with supporting death clock post-diction
which is clearly of value as a supportive method of honing actual death clock pre-diction
waybread
Well-known member
Marinka, as I posted above, there has been little death prediction on this forum up to now, thanks in large part to modern astrologers' sensible decision that it is a Really Bad Idea. Now we have people on this forum who think that professional astrologers' techniques from Days of Yore are entirely transferable to today's Internet astrological forums, and given the moderators' current "wait and see" position, this situation may well change.
In a future post or thread I will give Eileen Nauman's take on ethical considerations about vulnerable clients. She is the author of Medical Astrology, and has consulted with many clients over a long career, and she flatly states that death prediction is a Really Bad Idea. The one modern astrologer to write on death prediction badly misjudged his own manner and timing of death. (He's deceased so we know for certain.)
Are these the sorts of issues with which you have truly come to grips?
Let me give you an analogy. I live on a road in a semi-rural neighbourhood with a stop sign at the bottom of the hill where my road meets the highway. Before we moved in, our realtor warned us about this intersection when it's icy. Previously one winter a woman braked for the stop sign, but slid through and was killed by an oncoming vehicle. However, I don't know who she was. To me, she's sort of hearsay.
I stop at the stop sign and look both ways. Anyone else whom I've driven with stops at the stop sign. But why? OK, so there's a a blind curve to the right with traffice often exceeding the 80k speed limit, but why stop if the RCMP aren't waiting to give a ticket? I've never been hit, nobody I know personally has ever been hit.
So are stop signs up to individual drivers' discretion, in your opinion? Why shouldn't I just drive through it any time I want to? Would it matter if I had passengers who might be really apprehensive about that oncoming motorcycle?
Ethics go way, way beyond your personal desire to predict death for people, Marinka, regardless of the larger impact. What makes you believe otherwise? How would you answer the concern that your stand is amoral?
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Marinka
Well-known member
Discussion as stated on this thread is 'Morality of Predicting Death?'
NOT whether astrological death clock prediction should be banned
NOR whether astrological death clock prediction should NOT be banned
The discussion is the Morality or otherwise - that is all
JA - the voice of reason.
The thread seems to have taken a detour around post # 326 - maybe it's time to put it back on course.
So ----where were we back around Post 324 ...
M
may28gemini
First off, I have read all the posts on here and most of it is long, drawn out, and excessively repetitive abstract philosophical mumbo jumble that deflects answering the question in the most simple and direct manner possible. I am least interested in those who are so fixated on their own morality that they will argue their point to wear down the oppositional views as if their view is the only with merit and right, while the opposing views are evil and wrong. This thread reeks of holier than thou coming from you.
I haven't been coming onto the forums for as long as you and my observations have not been from the most orthodox methods and neither have my ways of expressing myself. However, I am a person who does have strong opinions and I freely make my assertions based on good faith- simply put, I express whatever I think out there and let others think/do/feel/react however they want. I could care less as I am only in control of myself and I have little interest in monitoring others nor do I want to censor them, either.
Your wrongful assertion from my laissez-faire tone about death and such is that I never had personal contact from death and dying could not be more wrong.
I've mentioned in many posts that I was born because my parents knew my brother was dying. My parents were heavily in debt supporting my dying brother as the hospital bills accumulated. They had to sell everything they had, their emotional capacities were maxed out and resulted in dropping me off to be raised mostly by my granny. I was the burden they wanted because they had no idea how to handle their firstborn's inevitable death and yet were not very capable of bonding together as a couple nor served to be protective parents towards their newborn. My father got into astrology and kept looking for answers to make sense to him as no medical nor scientific reason could suffice anymore. If only my parents could have found an astrologer who could predict my brother's death to ease them instead of them being hopeful only for it to be extinguished in such a tragic way. I wasn't even 5 when my older brother died in the dark and I was sitting next to him as he struggling to breathe and I felt life leave him.
That is not the only experience I've had with death and the dying. That was just my first one. At 10, I was the first one find that my grandfather had died in his sleep while the rest of the family had a gathering outside. I put blankets over him. At 15, I ran to go see a friend at his house and found that he had hung himself while his family had gone to the grocery store. I held his hand and ran away. Eventually I will have to deal with my parents' death but I don't want to think about that
I know what death is. I've felt its presence next to me. I also know that one day, I will feel its presence take me, as it took other lives, as it will continue to take more lives. It's the reality. I just find it to be completely cruel and irrational of people and society to enforce so much more emotional investment in something that is inevitable/inescapable and encourage the "sacred" pomp and circumstances to prolong the dreadful emotional and psychological pains by glorying death as if it's something special and needs to be catered to.
Like I said, there's nothing special about death. Life is so short and should be endeared to be special and celebrated. Making special offerings and respect to death DOES NOTHING for the dead nor does flattery spares death from one day visiting you. What is the harm in knowing when that day will come? If anything, it may give peace of mind and offer ease to those who have not enjoyed life and have been waiting for that one visit.
So, no, my previous post was not from abstraction as so much of my acceptance of an inescapable reality. I just don't believe in adding more emotional baggages than necessary.
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waybread
Well-known member
Yet there is no apparent problem with supporting death clock post-diction
which is clearly of value as a supportive method of honing actual death clock pre-diction
I just said above that I do not advocate death post-diction. Changing the word to "supporting" doesn't alter anything.
My point really and truly is that I would be happy if this death-talk all went away. We can more profitably engage in trying to help people with all sorts of other issues. However, I have yet to see actual harm done through analysis of death charts of deceased people. Are you aware of any contrary examples?
Sometimes people like to analyse past events. This doesn't mean that they use them to predict the future.
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waybread
Well-known member
May28, nobody denies that death is an unescapable reality. That is not at issue here. Surely you can understand that a dying person's painful experience or a loved one's dying family member is different than this platitude.
I regret the painful experiences you and your family experienced surrounding death. But do trust me, as someone surrounded by seniors, that there is more to get to beyond glib platitudes. Oh, like compassion, for instance.
I regret the painful experiences you and your family experienced surrounding death. But do trust me, as someone surrounded by seniors, that there is more to get to beyond glib platitudes. Oh, like compassion, for instance.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
One wonders why people like to analyse past events
Just to pass the time then presumably, until the future happens
M
may28gemini
Compassion is not morality but it unproductive as it does nothing except waste time and energy "feeling" for others when you have no idea how that person actually feel. My pains are not your pains. Your pains are not mine. We're NOT one. You are there. I am here.
It is immoral to pressure others to feel/care/think something they don't and it's also immoral try to control how others feel/care/think after any social/business interaction/transaction has happened.
It is immoral to pressure others to feel/care/think something they don't and it's also immoral try to control how others feel/care/think after any social/business interaction/transaction has happened.
Mandy
Well-known member
Actually May28 morals are social constructions. Compassion may be not part of your moral compass but doing not to others as I would not enjoy done to myself is part of mine. People do not live and behave in vacuum but are part of a whole. Several avenues of science show this.
It is immoral to pressure others to feel/care/think something they would rather not, but social influence is a powerful form of pressure on an individual (see Asch; Milgram; Turner). A main theme so far has been the sizeable grey area which denotes the uncontrolled practice of astrology, unlike other professions, which have access to people, including the vulnerable. The point has been, thus, it is immoral to make such transactions, sell a product, to mentally unstable people who have been socially influenced or are easily manipulated. A further reference has been that since an internet forum is not a place where one can discern whether they are doing a first, second, or third person consultation or the age/state of a member, it is immoral to not care about this far-reaching consideration and to proceeed regardless. In my opinion such behaviour seems opportunistic and irresponsible.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
The fact is that the analysis of death charts of deceased people
i.e. astrological death clock postdiction
is practiced for the purpose of honing skills of astrological death clock prediction
So let's use the following useful analogy
The analysis of traffic accidents at the road you have just described may then be undertaken
for purposes other than preventing potential future accidents because as already stated:
Then
despite doing no predictive work
JMO Telling people the past events of their lives is telling them something they already know. Clients go to astrologers to obtain predictions of their potential future.
i.e. Prediction
and not 'postdiction'
astrology is associated from time immemorial with the prediction of events including death
M
may28gemini
Morals are principles/structures that are formulated as a code to live but there is no evidence of it being merely social constructs. By postulating that society as a larger entity/authority and has the power to dictate and enforce what is dignified as "moral" or "not moral" is tied to the acceptance that the group is greater than the members. And how did the group obtain power in the first place? By hook or by crook, pressure, bully, manipulate, ostricize others into submission to relinquish personal power to someone(s) who "knows better" and can act on everyone's behalf for their "own good." That basic maxim is rooted in socialism/communism/fascism- all means of totalitarianism which glorifies existing as one and not accommodating individual free will because freedom would be too difficult to control. The need to control human nature because it is unpredictable/uncooperative with the "group" is immoral.
And what "science" actually makes the claim that morals are socially constructed and that understanding of reality is by collective understanding of the world? So believing that morals are the product of collective consciousness, one must accept that they cannot come up with their own code of ethics and acquiesce that they are incapable of making decisions on their own and cannot determine what it is they need, want, think, feel, or otherwise.
I'll keep my freedom and free will. I will continue to use my brain and not have to rely on busybodies to who have control issues make decisions for me.
Please don't cite social theorists that back up your stance. That doesn't make your point anymore believable or valid than what I have to say in the most plain ways.
Of course social influences CAN influence individual choices. I'm not talking about cut off shirts being in fashion and if you don't wear one, you're totally uncool and deserves to be made fun of and no boy will ask you out to the prom. I'm talking about detriment and corruption that society expands by rewarding those who cooperate and give up their free will by going along with whatever concepts/principles/values that are being touted as the idea du jour and seriously punish those who willfully disobeys (imprisonment, put to death, etc.) because they choose to follow their own moral compass and ideologies- that's totalitarianism.
If murder was temporarily declared as not immoral and as long as it's not considered immoral, murder can freely be committed with no repercussions. But does that still make murder wrong or because society/authority suspends any punishment for the action actually legitimize and invalidate that it was once strongly considered immoral? And what if murder violates an individual's personal principles? If society instructs you to murder, but because it's against your principles and everyone else is doing it, are you going to go murder or are you going to make a conscious stand?
Bottom line, if it weren't for dissenters, fervent individualists, and strong proponents of freedom who think for themselves, question society and authority, none of us would have made it out of the caves. We would still live completely subject to others' will and power and force to adhere to that form of logic (which is illogical). Just as it was wrong for the Roman Catholic Church to force Galileo to recant his solar centric theory, it's wrong for society to determine who is fit to rule and who shall serve, and at the smallest level, it is wrong for anyone to come along and press their values on another person and say "what I believe in is right because society/authority said so. Now you'll have to believe in whatever we, the majority believe in and accept it as reality, too or else."
My answer is
>>No, I will not. What I do/feel/care is my decision. What you do/feel/care is yours. If you want to kill yourself because I called you fat and "hurt" your feelings, go ahead. If I want to tell someone when they'll die because they paid me money to do so, I will do. Stop regulating others and practice self-discipline on yourself.
Again, I am here. You are there.
[deleted trolling comments - Moderator]
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Certainly morals are not necessarily dependent on social constructs
Morals in fact are in general defined as:
'Individual standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable to do'
The Morality or otherwise of Predicting Death is a matter for the individual to decide
waybread
Well-known member
JA, I don't know where you get your ideas from about the practice of astrology, but much of it is not predictive and never has been. Even St. Vettius of Valens had a lot of material on general character delineations. Again, just because death prediction was acceptable in the past is not an argument for it being ethical today. (Fallacy ad antiquitatem) We can cite so many examples of practices that were condoned in past societies (like Phoenician child sacrifice, throwing Christians to the gladiators, or Indian suttee) that are shunned today.
If you are hoping to try to trip me up, it would be helpful to at least be accurate about what you say about my posts. There's no "Gotcha!" moment for you when you so frequently misquote-- or perhaps simply misunderstand me.
Where did I say I "do no predictive work"? To the contrary, I have repeatedly noted my looking at transits and progressions; and to a lesser extent solar arcs and solar returns. However, I do this in a general way. I sometimes suggest good and bad times, or likely vs. unlikely times for something to happen. However much the chart may "out" itself, one still has choices to make and these choices will effect the outcome of future events.
May28, I got a chuckle out of your statement that you dislike long philosophical posts when you just wrote a bunch on your own. Mandy has answered you better than I could. I am curious though: are you a fan of Ayn Rand? Would you describe yourself as amoral?
It would be helpful to question whether "morality" is a loaded word, such that different people mean different things by it. It is too easy to dismiss "morality" construed as "Victorian morality" or "prudish morality," but less so in moral issues such as child abuse. It is easy to be a cultural relativist at times, but perhaps less so when another society itself shows revolutionary change in rejection of its oppressive social norms.
This is why, JA, morality is never merely a matter of "personal choice." If your morality somehow permitted you to sexually abuse children, would this make it acceptable to the society of which you are a part? If my morality somehow permitted me to steal your belongings, would this make it acceptable to you?
I prefer the term ethics, which deals less with individuals' gut feelings about their "rights" to do what they want, than with the principles whereby a just and compassionate society can self-govern.
If you are hoping to try to trip me up, it would be helpful to at least be accurate about what you say about my posts. There's no "Gotcha!" moment for you when you so frequently misquote-- or perhaps simply misunderstand me.
Where did I say I "do no predictive work"? To the contrary, I have repeatedly noted my looking at transits and progressions; and to a lesser extent solar arcs and solar returns. However, I do this in a general way. I sometimes suggest good and bad times, or likely vs. unlikely times for something to happen. However much the chart may "out" itself, one still has choices to make and these choices will effect the outcome of future events.
May28, I got a chuckle out of your statement that you dislike long philosophical posts when you just wrote a bunch on your own. Mandy has answered you better than I could. I am curious though: are you a fan of Ayn Rand? Would you describe yourself as amoral?
It would be helpful to question whether "morality" is a loaded word, such that different people mean different things by it. It is too easy to dismiss "morality" construed as "Victorian morality" or "prudish morality," but less so in moral issues such as child abuse. It is easy to be a cultural relativist at times, but perhaps less so when another society itself shows revolutionary change in rejection of its oppressive social norms.
This is why, JA, morality is never merely a matter of "personal choice." If your morality somehow permitted you to sexually abuse children, would this make it acceptable to the society of which you are a part? If my morality somehow permitted me to steal your belongings, would this make it acceptable to you?
I prefer the term ethics, which deals less with individuals' gut feelings about their "rights" to do what they want, than with the principles whereby a just and compassionate society can self-govern.
Re: Avoiding attacks
I had a client earlier this year. Her natal chart (and information about her past life that she volunteered during the interview) showed a very sensitive (impressionable, susceptible) personality.
Her current indications (directions, returns, etc) were calamitous with regard to health issues. I asked her if she had had any health issues in the past. She went into her bedroom and brought out a List.....one thing after another for years.
So I said nothing about what I saw in her chart. I left things as just a normal inquiry that any self-respecting astrologer might make...moved the conversation into other channels. What if she had asked me a direct question about her outlook for health?
I don't know...the question did not come up.
Three weeks later she suffered a major, life-changing stroke.
It would have been of no help whatsoever to have said a word about her health.
Had the interview been with Rambo instead of a highly suggestible woman with a rather high level of anxiety, I might have said something.
I think one of the questions the astrologer can ask in such cases is, "Will what I say to the client be useful or beneficial?"
En boca cerrada no cae mosca.
Which translated roughly means, "Keep your mouth shut and you won't find your foot in it."
***************
Many years ago I read for a woman. We talked about this and that. In closing I mentioned that her chart indicated a traumatic event around her age 12.
She broke into tears and sobbing, and continued sobbing for a half hour or so.
At age 12 she had become ill, was put in hospital...where she was raped by an orderly. The incident was totally repressed, hidden away from herself in some dark corner of the unconscious. My comment let the genie out of the bottle.
She was around 35 at the time. I think what happened was good for her, cathartic. It was time for her to face that ghost.
We can't know what the effects and consequences of our words will be. We can only trust to our best judgment, act out of empathy, and leave the rest to God.
I had a client earlier this year. Her natal chart (and information about her past life that she volunteered during the interview) showed a very sensitive (impressionable, susceptible) personality.
Her current indications (directions, returns, etc) were calamitous with regard to health issues. I asked her if she had had any health issues in the past. She went into her bedroom and brought out a List.....one thing after another for years.
So I said nothing about what I saw in her chart. I left things as just a normal inquiry that any self-respecting astrologer might make...moved the conversation into other channels. What if she had asked me a direct question about her outlook for health?
I don't know...the question did not come up.
Three weeks later she suffered a major, life-changing stroke.
It would have been of no help whatsoever to have said a word about her health.
Had the interview been with Rambo instead of a highly suggestible woman with a rather high level of anxiety, I might have said something.
I think one of the questions the astrologer can ask in such cases is, "Will what I say to the client be useful or beneficial?"
En boca cerrada no cae mosca.
Which translated roughly means, "Keep your mouth shut and you won't find your foot in it."
***************
Many years ago I read for a woman. We talked about this and that. In closing I mentioned that her chart indicated a traumatic event around her age 12.
She broke into tears and sobbing, and continued sobbing for a half hour or so.
At age 12 she had become ill, was put in hospital...where she was raped by an orderly. The incident was totally repressed, hidden away from herself in some dark corner of the unconscious. My comment let the genie out of the bottle.
She was around 35 at the time. I think what happened was good for her, cathartic. It was time for her to face that ghost.
We can't know what the effects and consequences of our words will be. We can only trust to our best judgment, act out of empathy, and leave the rest to God.
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MissScorpio
Well-known member
Could i post a chart of someone that committed suicide? To help me understand the transits and what might have provoked them?
Marinka
Well-known member
You can always post a chart but, I might suggest creating another thread ... maybe in "Read my chart" and placing it there. You should also include the progressions and a solar arc. You might also describe the relationship of the person to you (why you are interested in this information).
MissScorpio
Well-known member
Many thanks have posted the suicide chart in read my chart.
waybread
Well-known member
Moreover, who is the "authority" relevant to this particular thread? I'm not the "authority" figure here. So who is? The professional ethics codes I've cited are posted by voluntary organizations. No one is suggesting hampering one's freedom to think for one's self.
But sometimes the freedom to think for one's self leads to thinking through the probable implications of one's actions, which can wisely lead to voluntary self-limitation. We all have the capacity to say gratuitously mean things in anger, that we know would hurt someone we love. So a sensible person doesn't say those things. Otherwise we're like little children, unable to see beyond our immediate wants.
But sometimes the freedom to think for one's self leads to thinking through the probable implications of one's actions, which can wisely lead to voluntary self-limitation. We all have the capacity to say gratuitously mean things in anger, that we know would hurt someone we love. So a sensible person doesn't say those things. Otherwise we're like little children, unable to see beyond our immediate wants.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Morals in fact are in general defined as:
'Individual standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable to do'
The Morality or otherwise of Predicting Death is a matter for the individual to decide